Northfield new pricing

[Jim Nollman]

I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts about an Asian, quasi-factory built mandolin now costing +$6k in the Classifieds.

[JKA]

I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts about an Asian, quasi-factory built mandolin costing +$6k. I ask this in all innocence so, hopefully, the Cafe owners will also find this thread worthy of keeping.

Don't be put off by the place of manufacture. Have you ever seen the quality in an old Ming dynasty vase? Etc etc

Northfields are up there with the best.

[FLATROCK HILL]

Northfield builds a very fine mandolin, regardless of of the country in which it is assembled.

They offer quite a few different models at a wide range of prices. Their top-end models are (considerably) more expensive than their top-end models were when first introduced. These latest ones are supposedly a cut above anything they've built yet.
If they sell 'em at that price, then I guess they're worth it.

The 'Asian' factor shouldn't even enter into the equation.

[Jim Nollman]

Granted, a lot of "very fine mandolins" can cost (and exceed) $6k. But questioning the Asian factor is valid. That price caught my eye because of the general impression that American entrepreneurs pay their Asian workers far less than a company like Gibson pays US workers. That's an important reason why we can buy an Eastman for under $1000.

To further confuse the issue, many here have owned Asian mandolins built by both Eastman and Kentucky, that look about the same, and certainly sound more than 1/3 as good as Gibsons costing 2/3 more. That's branding.

When I saw that price I immediately wondered how much Northfield pays their workers as a percentage of that $6k, in comparison to Gibson, Eastman, Kentucky.

Some here may think this is none of my business. Indeed, I noticed long ago that merely questioning the branding economics of the mandolin world offends some on the Cafe. But we are all mandolin consumers here. Our buying decisions make the pricing possible. While some here only care how they sound, and others mostly care how they look, the issue of how companies arrive at their prices versus actual cost-to-build, seems a valid subject. This factor has partially driven my own personal decision to support small shop builders whenever possible.

[Petrus]

Some here may think this is none of my business. Indeed, I noticed long ago that merely questioning the branding economics of the mandolin world offends some on the Cafe. But we are all mandolin consumers here. Our buying decisions make the pricing possible. While some here only care how they sound, and others mostly care how they look, the issue of how companies arrive at their prices versus actual cost-to-build, seems a valid subject. This factor has partially driven my own personal decision to support small shop builders whenever possible.

I think it is a valid subject, if the discussion can be kept civil and objective (lots of luck, I know, lol.) I've always been interested in the economics of buying, selling, merchandising in regards to the things I'm interested in, which in this case happens to be mandolins. I do a little bit of buying and selling on eBay, for instance. It seems like some people don't understand that someone may be as interested in discussing the economics of the industry as others are in discussing different qualities of tonewoods or different string gauges. It should certainly be of interest to anyone thinking of getting involved in the business end of things at some point.

Of course we're not taking iPhones and Foxconn here. It would be interesting to see how Northfield sets up their workshops overseas. IIRC, there was a video tour a while back showing how the workshop process was conducted (maybe it wasn't Northfield though.)

[Bill Kammerzell]

Granted, a lot of "very fine mandolins" can cost (and exceed) $6k. But questioning the Asian factor is valid. That price caught my eye because of the general impression that American entrepreneurs pay their Asian workers far less than a company like Gibson pays US workers. That's an important reason why we can buy an Eastman for under $1000.

To further confuse the issue, many here have owned Asian mandolins built by both Eastman and Kentucky, that look about the same, and certainly sound more than 1/3 as good as Gibsons costing 2/3 more. That's branding.

When I saw that price I immediately wondered how much Northfield pays their workers as a percentage of that $6k, in comparison to Gibson, Eastman, Kentucky.

Some here may think this is none of my business. Indeed, I noticed long ago that merely questioning the branding economics of the mandolin world offends some on the Cafe. But we are all mandolin consumers here. Our buying decisions make the pricing possible. While some here only care how they sound, and others mostly care how they look, the issue of how companies arrive at their prices versus actual cost-to-build, seems a valid subject. This factor has partially driven my own personal decision to support small shop builders whenever possible.

I feel very much the same. I'd be glad to give Sonny Morris a grand or so for his F copy over any Eastman for the same price. I own one of his A-4 models now and it was under $900.00 shipped. I already had a spare Weber case. Another thing I generally won't do with a small builder like Sonny is try and shave some off the price. Can't bring myself to do that as I believe he's working with a pretty small profit margin. A large music store is an entirely different thing. I had no trouble at all haggling with TOH over the price of a Weber.

[almeriastrings]

I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts about an Asian, quasi-factory built mandolin now costing +$6k in the Classifieds.

If you can call 5 people a "quasi-factory" then quite a few "small shop" American builders are also "quasi-factories".

http://www.northfieldinstruments.com/about-us/our-story

At the same time, there was nothing remotely "quasi" about the factory that built those Loar's back in 1923, or the factory that made those old Martin guitars in pre-war days. Those really were full-on factories.

Not seen an Artist series yet, but I'd be fairly sure based on experience with their other instruments they are worth every cent.

[sblock]

see below

[Br1ck]

I wonder if there will ever come a day we see a Chinese character inlaid on the headstock, and view it as a sign of quality. I guess for now the brand names will be marketing to hide or at least divert attention to place of origin.

[sblock]

You are perfectly welcome to raise economic issues, but it might be a good idea to raise your concerns in an even-handed way!

Yes, asking how companies arrive at their prices is a valid question to ask, but it seems prejudicial to confine your questioning solely to foreign companies. What do you know about how much Gibson pays its own factory workers, for example, and what fraction of the cost of its mandolins goes into paying labor costs? Or materials costs? Or advertising costs? Do you have any reason to believe that Gibson (or any other U.S. manufacturer) might be engaging in predatory labor practices? No?! But, as many of us know, Gibson is notoriously secretive about its business practices, and they won't even allow prices to be advertised.

Well then, whatever leads you to believe that Northfield might be compensating its employees unfairly? It's a joint U.S.-Chinese venture, run by an American, and using North American tonewoods. It has a Japanese shop foreman. And so on. For all you know, it could be compensating its employees very well. (I have no information about that, myself.)

As for your stated desire to support small shops only, Northfield appears (from its website) to employ just 7 individuals: four in Qingdao, China, and three more in Michigan. That's similar to what Weber and Ellis employ, and smaller than Collings. So how do you define "small shop", I wonder? A single luthier?

Anyway, it's your money and you are free to spend it as you please. But please realize that we live today in a global economy, and be aware that you might be operating from a bit of national prejudice, and not out of concerns about fair labor practices, as you claim.

[NewKid]

+6K for a Northfield Artist Series F-Style mandolin seems reasonable to me. I hope they can make the company work charging these prices while making such a limited number of instruments.

[Ted Eschliman]

Quick alert. Discussions of fair labor trade practices fall well outside the scope of this website and are in danger of violating Discussion Board Guidelines. This thread is doomed a short life if it continues down the xenophobic path of cultural discrimination, instrument values speculated solely on country of origin. We're keeping it on a short leash.

[Luna Pick]

I like talking about mandolins and craftspeople, good people, no matter where they live on this planet.

And re Northfields, or any mandolins, until I had seen, played and looked at them I didn't understand the value statement. Now I get it. My Model M is fantastic. Their Artist series can go toe to toe with any mandolin, IMHO. I've seen and heard them compared by some of our great players. My dos centavos, NFI, etc.

[lgibjones]

But please realize that we live today in a global economy, and be aware that you might be operating from a bit of national prejudice, and not out of concerns about fair labor practices, as you claim.

It's important to me that people in America are able to make a living manufacturing mandolins, and for this reason I prioritize purchasing American-made mandolins. I don't associate this with the mentality of someone who views other countries in a negative or prejudicial manner.

[Bill Kammerzell]

It's important to me that people in America are able to make a living manufacturing mandolins, and for this reason I prioritize purchasing American-made mandolins. I don't associate this with the mentality of someone who views other countries in a negative or prejudicial manner.

I feel that way also.

[Scott Tichenor]

Its widely documented Northfield (and Eastman) never approached the misguided paradigm of Asian sweat shop. These builders are true craftsmen, career luthiers, professionals, some are business partners. Adrian is fluent in their language. He chose them because he knew the region and knew they made great products. Ask him. These are not instruments built en mass, shipped here and sold for inflated prices.

I've personally met many of these people like the owners of Eastman and their top luthiers. We convened at Carter Vintage Guitars a couple of years ago and they had me play dozens of mandolins for a listening evaluation against their instruments. Tours of their facilities and conditions, everything is in the open widely available on the internet, same with Northfield. There are people on this forum that have toured either the Eastman or Northield facilities. Northfield and everything about them has been widely documented here since 2010.

Curious at what point did Gibson become the hero of the working man or woman's wage? Hardly another music company on the planet with a more colorful and tainted reputation for working conditions. Do we require public disclosure of their wages and working conditions in order to purchase a Gibson?

Northfield makes great mandolins. Period. There are plenty of professional musicians in agreement. Mike Marshall can play any mandolin on the planet from any builder. Ask Mike what he thinks of his Northfield. If you think you're getting identical quality in an $800 instrument and that it's all smoke and mirrors marketing, power to you. And if you want to talk sweat shops we can start right here in the U.S.

[sblock]

Those of you who are prioritizing buying mandolins simply because the company happens to be headquartered in the U.S. may not be appreciating the bigger picture. As I wrote, we live in a global economy. The ebony in that bridge and fretboard likely comes from Africa or Indonesia. The pearl and abalone inlay from the Pacific region. Much of the steel to form the wire that makes your strings actually comes from China, which makes over 70% of the world's steel. The shellac that's used to make the varnish finish comes from India and Thailand. The electronics in the CNC machine that roughed out the carving were manufactured in chip foundries located in Malaysia and Southeast Asia. Some of the hand carving might be done with fine German woodworking tools, or perhaps Japanese. Some of the maple and spruce tonewoods used in mandolin manufacture come from next door, in Canada. Some of the hide glue and stain comes from there, too.

The chances are excellent that some fraction of the cost of every mandolin goes to some other country.

And in the specific case of Northfield, just under half the company's employees are located, and salaried, in Michigan -- where they pay U.S. taxes.

You do not really "protect" American jobs and wages by buying all-American: ask any economist. Furthermore, it is naive to believe that you can carry this off for most of the consumer products you purchase. Not your car, not your cell phone, not your TV, not your washer/dryer. And not the computer or tablet you're using to view this!

If you prefer to patronize a particular luthier located in the U.S. because you love his or her work, by all means do so. But "buying American" for a factory-made product makes a whole lot less sense. As Scott pointed out, when it comes to labor practice, not all U.S. companies are virtuous, and not all foreign ones are deficient. You need to take a more sophisticated, case-by-case approach if you choose to go down that road.

[Marcus CA]

Buying American. It's all such a blur these days. I drive a Toyota that was built in the US, while there are Fords built in Mexico. In the guitar world, Taylors, Larrivees (a Canadian company), and Cordobas are built in Southern California, but are they built entirely (or even mostly) by American citizens? I dunno. Also, it's hard to assess the quality of the Northfield wage without knowing the cost of living in Qingdao.

[jim simpson]

I lost my prejudice against non-US made mandolins many years ago when presented with a Kentucky KM-1000, made in Japan model. I was pleasantly surprised by it's volume and tone. Today I own and play a Collings MF5 and a KM-1000. I wouldn't mind owning a Northfield as I recently played a friend's. It was really impressive!

[Jeff Mando]

Great discussion and interesting points, guys! I love the Ming vase argument -- I'll have to remember that one.

Speaking of Gibson. I remember when the factory opened in Memphis, several of my guitar buddies went down to apply for work, but were surprised to find the wages lower than they had hoped for. Of course, some of the positions like binding scrapers were basically entry level work and paid accordingly, but the "expert" positions such as painters were not being paid like you would imagine they were being paid. Keep in mind the factory opened in early 2000, but at the time the top finishers topped out at about $15 an hour -- many of my friends were already making more than that doing furniture finishing. Also, bear in mind that Memphis has historically been under the national average for wages, in general. OTOH, I did take the tour of the factory and it seemed like a cool place to work, if you like building. I should add that I have no idea if the mandolin department in Nashville pays workers more or not.

[soliver]

Here are a couple of thoughts from my perspective.

As a single income earner of a household of 6 making what our government easily considers an income at the poverty level, I had to work hard and sell some treasured items in order to raise the money to upgrade from my $50 craigslist buy to the lowest end Eastman, which sounds and plays exponentially better. Why? Because I fell in love with playing! Somebody would have to die and leave me something significant for me to be able to own a $1000 instrument much less one at $6000 because more than likely money like that would be put toward a more pressing need. So while it may seem reasonable to you to speak ill of Chinese made instruments, it has made playing a decent instrument at least approachable to people in an income bracket like myself. All of this is completely aside from the fact that the instruments are actually well made and sound pretty good. I have watched some footage of the luthiers working on hand carving the instruments for Eastman, and it didn't look like they were doing anything less than any other American luthier, they just happened to be doing it in China.

The truth of the matter is that there is a great deal of information from Northfield's business plan that NONE of us are privy to, so in essence isn't most of this just speculation and assumption? I would say that the important question is (completely remove where it is made from the equation) does an instrument with the Northfield name warrant a $6000 price tag? If so, then ask; if you had an instrument you could get $6000 for, would you sell it $4000? Then ask; if you had a series instruments of a $6000 quality that you sold for $4000, how would that effect other luthiers who sold $6000 quality instruments?

So please take that into consideration before you make arguments about Chinese made instruments costing more than you think they ought to, because I would say that what you think it ought to be is only an opinion that is based on speculation.

[lgibjones]

My concept of the initial brand identity for Northfield was they enable buyers to get in to a very high quality mandolin at a lower price point. That they are now going for $6K was surprising to me, as this will get you an astonishing instrument from a number of small shops in the US, many built start to finish by a sole proprietor.

[Jim Nollman]

Those who find my words prejudicial need to re-read what I wrote. Actually, What I did say is that price is hardly a good guide for judging mandolin quality. Asian, American or otherwise. So much is about branding. Who doubts it? If so tell us something more than that this or that brand is good or bad.

I started this thread for two reasons. Specifically, to find out what others think about the rather dramatic increase in northfield prices over a rather brief period. I made no mention of northfield quality, although I know full well that others like them a lot.

And generally, As a lifelong mandolin player with an interest in all aspects of mandolin culture, I am curious about the economics of making a mandolin in Asia, in comparison to factory USA made, and in comparison to one-at-a-time small shops in the USA. That includes the especially interesting comparison of time and labor as a percentage of cost of product. the truth is, some of us know a lot about the economics of mandolin building and selling, and some others (like me) no almost nothing about it. This is the reason I started this thread.

I also said that it's been my experience that, on the cafe, some find any talk about mandolin economics to be offensive. Ted Elischman, that you feel a need to chime in about censoring this discussion about the information we all need to gather to become better mandolin consumers seems heavy handed. Wherever it goes, why not trust us as to be adults not needing your supervision, even if the subject matter strays into the legit issue of labor practices, and even if it apparently breaks some abstract rule you supervise, no matter what we might actually say about it. We can handle it. The cafe can handle it. I feel quite certain that there's a lot you, in particular, can tell us about this subject.

[Bill Kammerzell]

What a fun thread this was.

[Ron McMillan]

When I look at Northfields, I see fantastic instruments that attract lavish praise from giants of the mandolin world.