Tennis Elbow and Mandolin Pickin'?

[Boilline78]

I've been struggling with Tennis Elbow and playing mandolin seems to agitate it. I literally stopped playing for 10 weeks and it got much better. The injury was sustained from sporting activities. However it is on the mends but just light playing inflames it. Has anyone out there dealt with this type of injury? If so, how did you manage to play? What therapeutic activities did you do? Stretching? Strengthening? Thanks all!

[Bad Monkey]

I feel your pain on this one. I'm a retired firefighter/paramedic and tore up my shoulder and elbow pretty bad a couple of times on the job. had a house blow up on me and I ended up in the basement (started halfway up the stairs to the second floor) and tore things up a second time in a water rescue. At the time I was playing primarily electric guitar and trumpet/flugelhorn. Playing guitar sucked and horn wasn't much better since you have to hold your hand up above shoulder level all damned night. That's when I finally started to play with as little tension as possible. That much I'm sure you figured out already. Things started to turn around for me when I told my PT about playing guitar. She was a little Chinese girl and started me on tai chi. The stretching and working through as much range of motion as I could manage really made things easier. I still don't have full range of motion out of my right arm, but I'm better than 95% of my left.

[pops1]

I struggled with this for 10 months, went to a good and I mean good chiropractor, a different one than I had been seeing during the ten months, and he said, " oh you have a rib out" put the rib in place and pain gone and never came back.

[Beanzy]

Back when I began to practice seriously about two years in, I began to suffer from tennis elbow.
I did a week of classes at Sorefingers Summercamp with Rex Preston who spent a whole morning at the start sorting out pick holds and position of the mandolin relative to the body. I played about 8-10 hrs each day there with no pain, where a couple of hours a day was leaving me very sore during the days preceeding that. The difference was striking for such a short intervention.
I had been holding it like a little guitar rather than as a mandolin. The basic principles are different. If you check out many of the previous texcellent threads on holding the mandolin you'll get the core principles very well explained.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Bad Monkey - " Had a house blow up on me and I ended up in the basement (started halfway up the stairs to the second floor) " . Other than that your day was ok ?. Seriously - i'm really glad you survived such a terrible catastrophe,but you guys will go where others daren't go. I'm sure it's the same in the US,we hear about the bravery of you guys & gals all the time over here. Often,it's not good news either.

Ok to the question - Many years back,i had what's amusingly called a 'frozen shoulder' & it wan't no beef either !!!. It's caused when the tissues surrounding the shoulder joint become inflamed & it's hell !. It's not fully understood why it happens,but i had anti-inflamatory drugs & physio. to get mine right. The AI drugs helped,but i had to go to a physio. 2 days a week to have my shoulder ripped off - errr 'manipulated' (it just felt like it was being ripped off). It didn't stop me playing banjo,but i'd just started playing guitar & playing chords was very painful. I had to take it slowly & play until it hurt too much to carry on,but my physio. was keen that i did carry on,it was excercise after all, & kept my shoulder from 'freezing up' again. It was over 6 months before it had subsided to almost nothing.

For each of us,the experience will be different & we have to use our own judgement along with professional advice to get back on track. I think that the secret is not to push yourself too far - far enough is enough,
Ivan

[Tavy]

I feel for you... I have a rumbling tennis elbow that's been going on for nearly a year. First few months I stopped playing completely (couldn't even do my shirt buttons up without agony never mind play), but since then I've found that playing doesn't aggravate it too much as long as I keep it to an hour at a time (2 hour gig and it stiffens up afterwards, but is no worse the next day).

What really does get me, is gripping stuff. Grip anything tight with my left hand (ie holding stuff down while I work on it) and that really makes it way worse, probably is the cause too. So unless you're gripping the fretboard way to tight it's probably not the playing. And yes the physio helps a lot, but you have to do the exercises just right or you can make it worse, so I would advise some instruction in the first instance. Stretching is good for short term relief, but ultimately it's the strengthening exercises that get it - something I need to work on more.

[A 4]

I had tennis elbow in both elbows. I went to the doctor, who recommended anti-inflammatory pills and rest. In my case, mandolin exacerbated the problem, but the primary cause was moving heavy stones to build a firepit. I thought I was better until I did some chain-sawing, and I was worse than ever - took two hands and bracing my arms against my body to lift a tea kettle.

The whole process went on for months, and what solved it for me was therapeutic massage. I've never been massaged before, but I had a friend who mentioned it to the massage guy at a local tennis club, and he said he had fixed this problem for people many times. I went once a week for a couple months, and he fixed my problem. It's actually fairly painful, basically massaging from fingers to shoulder, but really, really digging into the forearm, along with stretches.

Worth a try? He actually had pretty good taste in music, too.

[Tavy]

I had tennis elbow in both elbows. I went to the doctor, who recommended anti-inflammatory pills and rest. In my case, mandolin exacerbated the problem, but the primary cause was moving heavy stones to build a firepit. I thought I was better until I did some chain-sawing, and I was worse than ever - took two hands and bracing my arms against my body to lift a tea kettle.

Ouch!

The problem with this is that if you rest too much you loose muscle tone and then it comes straight back when you do try to do something. On the other hand if you exercise in the wrong way, that will exacerbate things a lot as well (from googling my problems, it seems that the folks that pump iron get this a lot). So the trick is to actually use the "bad" arm as much as you can.... but only for lightweight things that don't make things worse. Little and often is the key. But like I said, find a good physio that can show you how to do things the right way.

[Drew Egerton]

I was talking to one pro picker who said playing mandolin has never caused such issues for him in 40+ years of playing, but he picked up racquetball and it started causing some discomfort while playing, so he was probably going to have to give that up.
Not saying playing can't cause it, but I thought that was interesting. You might look at what other activities may be contributing.
Also work on keeping that wrist loose and let it do more work than the elbow.

[Ray(T)]

I had tennis elbow about 15 years ago in my right arm. The main problem I had was opening doors. A cortizone injection (administered by my doctor - who went on to be the team doctor for the Manchester United football (soccer) team) solved the problem and it has never re-ocurred. It does take a couple of weeks from treatment to recovery though.

[Perry]

There are a couple of stretches that helped me. And continue to do when I remember. You can search online for the stretches.

The one that helps is hold your arm out straight an lightly bend your fingers (all as one unit) down with the other hand.

There is also a brace you can buy and inflammatory meds help not just with pain but they reduce swelling.

And rest (I played electric guitar unplugged for a month...low action...to give it a bit of a break)

As mentioned above therapeutic massage aimed at the the issue helped tremendously. Get someone knowledgeable about the injury.

[Tom C]

I had Golfer's elbow -Pain on the outside of elbow compared to inside?? forgot as I had had both. Not sure from mandolin or golf which I was not active doing. It made shifting very painful when driving. My doctor told me to take golf lessons.

[fifths]

I have had the TE in my right arm, brought on by a couple of days of heavy-ish landscaping work, it was aggravated by mandolin. I learned some stretches, which help, and did some lap swimming, which helped, but mostly have been trying to loosen my death-grip on the pick, and to play looser. I am a beginner, so it's easy for me to get aggro tense and frustrated and to try to power through fast sections. I have become conscious of that, I cut out practice sessions and jams longer than 90 minutes or so, and the problem is going away.
For me it was the action you would use if you were behind a chair and wanted to tuck it under the table with one hand, pivoting your knuckles upwards at the wrist that caused the pain. Or revving a motorcycle. Hope this helps.

[40bpm]

I had tennis elbow in both arms and still have minor problems in my right elbow.

What worked for me in a hurry was using an item called a Theraband (check Amazon). Basically, it's a rubber rod that you grip in one hand and twist with the other (see their instructions). They make them in several densities - start with the lightest one. I keep mine handy and try to use it daily and have since graduated to a stiffer version.

Ice (frozen peas or similar) 20 mins on then off helps immensely and quickly. Repeat 4-5 times per day for fast results.

Also you can try stuff called Blue Emu which is an over-the-counter topical that helps. There's also a prescription only gel called Voltaren that works fast.

The main thing is to get the inflammation down (ice), and of course rest. Be optimistic, you can get past this but be patient. Your body wants to heal.

[gtani7]

I have low level tennis elbow whenever i have to do heavy lifting, which is a few times/week. You can try arnica as a natural anti inflammatory, i take pills made by German firm Boiron.

You can try to grip the neck and pick with less tension. There's been threads about Monster grips, adhesive backed sandpaper, etc, to make grippier picks: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...rips-Any-users

For barre chords on a solidbody guitar, which sort of translates to mandolin: pull in with your left arm (assuming that's the fretting hand) and try to relax the LH thumb an equal amount, so it's not a death grip. Use the right elbow to stabilize the instrument. On my Strat i can shove the right elbow in to the body to drive the neck forward, pull in with left arm, and do barre chords without using the thumb. On an archtop, of course, use the right arm to stabilize instrument without doing structural damage to the top.

Another thing i tried was to attach the strap to the bottom button of the instrument only, and sit on it to resist the backward pull of the left hand and arm. I think that was one of the times i got tendinitis from bass guitar.

one last idea which i never acted on: get a mount so that you can play without holding instrument at all, like jazzers Pat Metheny and Stanley jordan: http://www.purewaveaudio.com/mbrace-guitar-holder/

[Johnny60]

Regular tendon stretches before and during sessions will help a lot, as will not gripping too tight - make sure your action is low enough that you don't need a "death grip" to play. Use a strap so that your fretting arm/elbow isn't supporting the weight of the neck.

A good physiotherapist can help, by digging in deep into the inflamed area and prescribing safe but effective stretches.

If you do go to see a physio/chiropractor or whatever, make sure you take your mandolin with you - that way you can show them the way you hold, play, press, etc.

Good luck!

[gtani7]

I forgot the usual recommendations for less muscular effort: lower action, light gauge strings, tune down half step, play softly, use a thin floppy pick. Ignore all the BC 60/55/40 threads, you can play with a red Tortex, it sounds thin but who cares, you're playing.

[Kay Kirkpatrick]

I, too, had a trigger that began my tennis elbow, and even after giving that up, playing the mandolin continued to aggravate it for 3 more years. A member here told me about Salonpas (I used small), which I used for several days, along with the Theraband for a couple of months that 40bpm mentioned. Nearly two years later and I still haven't had the pain return.

[MediumMando5722]

...use a thin floppy pick. Ignore all the BC 60/55/40 threads, you can play with a red Tortex, it sounds thin but who cares, you're playing.

How would this help? Thick, heavily polished picks take less effort for me to hold & play. Seems like this would be good for this condition.

[ColoradoMando]

I had the same issue about 6 months ago. It was a combination of both tennis and golfers elbow. After trying a few different treatments, I decided to try lowering my strap considerably. At band practice a few days later, I noticed a significant improvement. Since adjusting the strap, I haven't really had any discomfort. It seems that I was just putting to much tension on the tendons when playing with the mandolin higher up. Could be something to look at.

[Marcus CA]

I wear a wraparound brace that has a pressure pad you place against the sore tendon. It goes around your forearm just past your elbow, with a velcro strap that holds it in place. Without it, I can play mandolin for 10-20 minutes. With it, I'm good for 2-3 hours. Drugs no mo. Ice on rare occasion.

[derbex]

I wear a wraparound brace that has a pressure pad you place against the sore tendon. It goes around your forearm just past your elbow, with a velcro strap that holds it in place. Without it, I can play mandolin for 10-20 minutes. With it, I'm good for 2-3 hours. Drugs no mo. Ice on rare occasion.

I have a friend who's a physio who told me to try a brace, I can't recommend it yet as it's still in the post but I am glad to hear that it's working for Marcus. He also recommended a stretch, for golfer's elbow in my case, like this one http://www.wiltshireccg.nhs.uk/wp-co...owsept2015.pdf

[Tavy]

I wear a wraparound brace that has a pressure pad you place against the sore tendon. It goes around your forearm just past your elbow, with a velcro strap that holds it in place. Without it, I can play mandolin for 10-20 minutes. With it, I'm good for 2-3 hours. Drugs no mo. Ice on rare occasion.

Good for you - I tried a brace and ended up in agony - doesn't give me enough quick fire movement

It's good for other things though (gardening etc).

Interesting how many folks have the same problem!

[Boilline78]

Thanks all for the wonderful advice! I have been doing wrist flexion and extension stretches. I have not yet started to do exercises but have purchased a Theraband flex-bar to work on strength. I plan to start soon but will do the exercises easily to assure I do not re-injure myself. Glad to see that so many people have successfully worked past this annoying injury. On another note I was able to take my mandolin to WV and do some pickin in the mountains at my friends house. I was successfully able to play with minor agitation. Rest seems to have helped quite a bit. Also, I tried to play with less tension overall(easier said than done) which probably helped my relax my grip.

[red7flag]

I am both a tennis player and mandolin picker. A few years ago, when I was playing a lot more tennis, I suffered tennis elbow in both elbows. You may ask how in both elbows. Well when my tennis elbow in my right arm got severe, rather than put tennis away, I started playing left handed. In my first match, I got tennis elbow in the left arm. At that time I was also playing a lot of mandolin. I found that playing for a long time or playing extremely strenuous tunes tended to bring out pain, yes in both elbows. How did I get rid of it. Well I got a plantaris muscle pull that kept me out of tennis for 6 weeks (can be dangerous to nerves going to foot). All injuries went away. PS I did not stop playing mandolin when injured.