Composition in Roots Music

[Marc Ferry]

Howdy folks,

In progressive bluegrass, there's a good deal of music that consists of more than a repeating chord structure and a melody -- music that is less improvised and more composed, as a work of classical or jazz music might be.

Examples that I've found are The Goat Rodeo Sessions (Chris Thile, Edgar Meyer, Stuart Duncan, and Yo-Yo Ma), Bass and Mandolin (Chris Thile, Edgar Meyer), some Punch Brothers songs, much of Bela Fleck's work, Edgar Meyer's work, and Chris Thile's work.

I'm looking for more instances of composition in roots music, as I'd like to do a bit of studying and analysis of this branch of music.

So my question for you all is: what other albums/artists do you know of that you would consider instances of composition in roots music?

Thanks for the help, and happy picking!

[Ivan Kelsall]

The very description, ''Roots music'', would tell you that it's a music form that precedes all the stuff that you're trying to find.
As far as Bluegrass music is concerned,the 'roots' of it are all the music forms that Bill Monroe pulled together over the years to establish it as a separate music form in it's own right.

I think that from the list of musicians / bands that you quote in your first post,that you've pretty well got them. You don't mention ''Newgrass Revival'' as a band,but i suspect that ''much of Bela Fleck's work'' covers that.
I don't know whether you'd consider their music 'composed',as such,but all Bluegrass bands come up with 'new stuff' & have to 'arrange' it,maybe not on paper,but it is 'organised. It has to be otherwise it would be a free for all with nobody knowing ''what to play when''.

You could look at the music of 'The Infamous Stringdusters' & 'Greensky Bluegrass',just to name 2 of my own favourite bands who's outputs are an offshoot of Bluegrass. Other Cafe members will be able to add to the list i'm sure. But as far as the music that formed the ''Roots of Bluegrass music'',i don't think that 'composition' in the way you mean it had any input. Personally,i think that the current output of the musicians that you mention,is pretty far from 'roots' music. For me,it has the same relationship to Bluegrass music that Modern Jazz (Dave Brubeck) & Be-Bop ( Charlie Parker etc.) has to Dixieland Jazz. It's played by folk who wanted to leave the 'roots' behind & extend the music they play & develop their own form of 'acoustic music',
Ivan

[Fred Keller]

The term "roots music" definitely encompasses a wide variety of music depending on how far back in time you wish to look.

I realize that I stretch the boundaries from time to time but I definitely TRY to stay true to a rural-based roots music concept: In my case basically Southern styles (bluegrass, stringband blues, old-time Appalachian ballad and tune), some Scots/Irish style pieces, and a couple tin-pan alley songs (definitely a Northern "tradition"). My website is www.deepnorthmn.com and there are some links and vids. My latest CD "Up The Road & Down The Flats" consists of my attempts to compose in roots formats; it's all original songs about Minnesota stories and history.

Sorry for tooting my own horn and I definitely DO have a financial interest :D But I'll try not to be too crass.

Other CD's? I'd be hard pressed to name an entire CD of composed "roots music" however you define that. On the other hand I know tons and tons of recordings that mix trad and originals. Other cafe-ers will know more than I.

[JeffD]

Examples that I've found are The Goat Rodeo Sessions (Chris Thile, Edgar Meyer, Stuart Duncan, and Yo-Yo Ma), Bass and Mandolin (Chris Thile, Edgar Meyer), some Punch Brothers songs, much of Bela Fleck's work, Edgar Meyer's work, and Chris Thile's work.

Definitions and genre boundaries are argued all the time. But I think many would agree that the work you reference has departed the "roots" designation, though I have heard it used. Its only real connection to roots being the chosen instruments, and perhaps an occasional reference in a phrase or chord choice.

Like calling Dvorak's New World Symphony and Aaron Copeland's Rodeo progressive roots music. Something like that.

A phrase I remember: "they call it progressive (as in not) bluegrass".

That said, I encourage your investigation. Perhaps the affinities run deeper. It is certainly of interest.

[JeffD]

Howdy folks,

In progressive bluegrass, there's a good deal of music that consists of more than a repeating chord structure and a melody -- music that is less improvised and more composed,

There again, you might want be careful about what to do with old time music. The music is definitely roots, but the tunes are out there, like traditional Irish fiddle tunes, notes relatively fixed, defined and even composed, and like traditional Irish, improvisation is generally limited to choices in ornamentation and decoration. Doing a real improvisation, where one departs significantly from the melody, with an old time tune is often thought of as more appropriate to bluegrass or jazz.

[Jim Garber]

In progressive bluegrass, there's a good deal of music that consists of more than a repeating chord structure and a melody -- music that is less improvised and more composed, as a work of classical or jazz music might be.

Examples that I've found are The Goat Rodeo Sessions (Chris Thile, Edgar Meyer, Stuart Duncan, and Yo-Yo Ma), Bass and Mandolin (Chris Thile, Edgar Meyer), some Punch Brothers songs, much of Bela Fleck's work, Edgar Meyer's work, and Chris Thile's work.

I am a bit confused here because you set improvised vs. composed. I can certainly see that present-day classical would be less improvised but how can you say that jazz and the examples of acoustic groups you mention are less improvised? Jazz is and always has been improvised and the folks you mention are probably among the best improvisors in acoustic music. Yes, they are improvising off different chord progressions from bluegrass players and may even stray away from the standard harmonic structure, but much of these performances are improvised.

Perhaps the word "composed" is the confusing part? All music is composed but for some roots music we may not know who originally wrote it.

[Ivan Kelsall]

IMHO - I don't think that 'progressive' Bluegrass is any more 'composed' than Trad. Bluegrass,but there again,i don't consider the stuff that Chris Thile etc. is doing to be 'progressive Bluegrass'. They left Bluegrass behind a long while ago to form their own brand of acoustic music. 'Progressive Bluegrass',for me,are bands such as the 'Stringdusters' & 'Greensky' - maybe we're just arguing semantics here,but that's the way i see it,in a similar way that Alison Krauss & her gang choose not to call what they play these days,'Bluegrass',it's 'something else' (i'd agree !),
Ivan

[Peewee]

I don't think the OP meant newgrass; more the melding of bluegrass & chamber music. Bill Monroe meets Ludwig van Beethoven. Something like Chris Thile's The Blind Leaving the Blind, which still contains a good deal of improvisation but is a long four movement piece heavily influenced by 20th century composition.

A lot of this music is by the same musicians in different incarnations (with Edgar Meyer frequently involved). Some other examples:

Yo Yo Ma, Edgar Meyer & Mark O'Connor - Appalachia Waltz & Appalachian Journey
Strength in Numbers - The Telluride Sessions
Joshua Bell & Edgar Meyer - Short Trip Home
Edgar Meyer - Uncommon Ritual
Jerry Douglas, Russ Barenberg & Edgar Meyer - Skip, Hop & Wobble
The Tim Ware Group - The Tim Ware Group & Shelter from the Norm

Some of these have more improvisation, some have more composition, but I think they all fit in the same category.

[Perilous Deep]

I would also look to the early David Grisman Quintet and Tony Rice Unit albums for a look at some jazz-inspired, tightly composed instrumental music that sometimes still keeps a foot (or at least a toe) in bluegrass sound.

And for "roots" more strictly construed, close study of Gillian Welch/Dave Rawlings songs is very rewarding. While they don't have the structure of movements developed out of a theme, there are more subtle updates on traditional forms, in chord structure, vocal harmonies, and lyrics.

[Ivan Kelsall]

The key words are ''Roots music''. To me that means the music form that gave birth to all that came after. As such,IMO,there never was any 'composition in Roots music'.
There may well have been 'composition' in some of the 'offshoots' of the 'roots' & Perilous Deep above mentions one band that for me,at least sounds as though the music was 'composed' - whether it was actually 'composed', ie. written down with each player having a 'set' piece,you'd maybe have to ask Dave Grisman / Tony Rice etc. I can't help feeling that it was simply thoroughly 'organised' & rehearsed to the point where the musicians could play it in their sleep. In Classical music,groups of musicians play far more complex pieces of music without the music scores in front of them,so why not Grisman & Co. ?,
Ivan

[Beanzy]

I keep finding quite a few old tunes that are used by bands now and stated as being Traditional, but they are originally composed and facimiles of their sheets are available still, including the composer name and titles.
These are different from the very old tune collections which were often merely arrangements for piano of tunes already composed.
One example would be The Arkansas Traveler by Sandy Faulkner in the mid 1800s

[Andy Hatfield]

Awesome topic! I love progressive bluegrass compositions. My favorite is strength in numbers. What I love about it, is there are sing-able melodies and intense improvisations. A lot of progressive bluegrass sounds weird for the sake of being weird, but that album nails it with terrific melodies.

I think any study of bluegrass composition has to go back to the early David grisman quintet. I love that they were interpreting jazz through the filter of bluegrass. They really didn't know the jazz language of bebop, swing, etc, but just tried to play it anyway, and this beautiful hybrid came out .

The punch brothers redefined bluegrass composition by making each instrument stay within the boundary of collaborative music. Meaning, it's not the bluegrass way of playing solo, backup, solo, etc, but rather, the instruments are always inside the music, the way a string quartet would be written. It's really interesting!

I've only heard it once, but the new Sierra hull album is beautiful.

Andy Hatfield

[Darren12]

Bela Fleck's Drive and both his Tales from the Acoustic Planet might fit the bill.

[allenhopkins]

1. Every piece of music was composed once by someone. Lots of tunes/songs that are "public domain" -- i.e., no longer under copyright -- get listed as "traditional" because [a] they're old, and [b] it's simpler than looking up the composer, if one is still known. Many others have outlived attribution to anyone, are passed along from musician to musician over the years, and can only be called "traditional."

2. Quite a few classical composers have been known to take folk ("roots?") melodies and incorporate them into composed pieces. Aaron Copland put Simple Gifts into Appalachian Spring, and Bonaparte's Retreat (a version, anyway) into Rodeo. Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Chopin, Bartok –– a long list of the classical "greats" who've used "roots" music as inspiration for compositions.

3. But is it still "roots" music, once transmogrified into a composition? Once you have a formalized arrangement, has it been "de-rooted?" Or is it "roots inspired," or "composed music played in a 'roots' style," or an original composed piece that incorporates a few "quotes" of traditional music? You can hear the traditional-music background of the composer in the music he/she creates, but aren't we dealing with something that's largely different?

4. Seems that there are a lot of virtuosic performers of traditional or "roots" music, who want to "graduate" to more "serious" music, whether it's just to exercise their compositional chops, or express a particular musical perspective that somehow "transcends" the (very generous) boundaries of tradition. I understand there exists a concerto for Jew's harp, mandora (a pre-mandolin lute), and orchestra; why, here it is now:



It's by Johann Albrechtsberger (1736-1809). Not sure what this has to do with anything, but what's more "roots" than a Jew's harp (or "jaw harp," as we say now)?

[Ivan Kelsall]

Nice descriptions Allen -''de-rooted''. I was thinking more along the lines of 'up-rooted'.

Eoin makes a good point,but i'd make a bet that 'some' of the 'composed' tunes that he refers to,are simply 'arrangements' of far older tunes. The original composers are all long forgotten,thus enabling the 'arranger' to stake their claim to it. One example that most of us know about is Bill Monroe. His name was applied to many tunes that others 'composed'. An example is the tune ''Santa Claus'' which is as close to the old tune ''I don't love nobody'' as you can get. In fact BM states in the sleeve notes of the LP ''Bluegrass Instrumentals'', that he ''wrote'' it to be like that.

I don't know if this is the 'original' but for anybody who knows BM's tune ''Sanata Claus'', the melody sticks out like a sore thumb,
Ivan

[Jim Garber]

An interesting thread, no doubt, but it would be nice if the OP actually replied to our questions. Perhaps he forgot that he had posted here. I would hope he just got busy elsewhere with his study and analyses.

[Spencer]

In case the OP is listening, I recommend he get some of the recordings of Hickory Project, I think they go in the direction he is thinking about.

Spencer

[Ethan Setiawan]

Quick list of folks that come to mind that haven't been mentioned:

Haas Kowert Tice
Matt Flinner Trio
Jayme Stone's music
Mr. Sun
Julian Lage and Chris Eldridge

Not quite in the same vein, but Stash Wyslouch formerly of the Deadly Gents is in large part through composed

Andy mentioned Strength in Numbers, Bela's Tales from the Acoustic Planet can get out there harmonically and also really plays with arrangement. Worth checking out for ideas for how to play with form. Dawg and Chris are of course revolutionary

[AlanN]

[QUOTE=Peewee;1522369]
The Tim Ware Group - The Tim Ware Group & Shelter from the Norm[/QUOTE]

Quite outside when this clan hit the scene, maybe closer to the OP idea than some of the others listed. Dawg Music was all the rage, then Iguana Perez shows up with his quasi-classical/chamber/jazz conflagration. It never really caught on, but I dug it. Some of the tunes were actually whistle-able in the shower.

Another one is/was Cadillac Sky, which I think Skaggs' label encouraged.

[Marc Ferry]

Thanks for all the responses folks, and sorry I wasn't participating in the discussion -- I pretty much forgot that I posted this. I've now got a lot of listening ahead of me!

This thread brought about a lot of aimless discussion of genre boundaries and improvisation/composition. Yeah, genres aren't black and white, and neither is the improvisation/composition dichotomy. They're all just useful terms that are defined by their own usage. I guess I should've been more clear about what I wanted out of the thread.

Nonetheless it also brought about a lot of good music recommendations which I'll get to.

Cheers!

[Jim Garber]

Welcome back, Marc!

[Jim Hudson]

Great thread, and thanks for jumping back in Marc. I'm just glad Allen H jumped in. That was some good "jaw harp"!! Made my day. Ha! Ain't music grand!