Purchasing through the Cafe

[dph3430]

I apologize if this information is provided somewhere on the Cafe - just can't find it.

Are all instrument sellers in the Cafe classifieds required to offer the 48-hour inspection period to buyers, or is this just something offered by certain sellers (as shown in their listing)?

Also, if anyone would be willing to share successful, or unsuccessful, stories on instrument purchases with the inspection period it would be appreciated.

I've been looking for a mandolin that would be offered for sale within reasonable distance from my home so I could see it in person, but it's looking like that's not going to happen.

Thank you.

[Pittsburgh Bill]

I have purchased 2 thru the Cafe and sold 2 thru the Cafe. If anyone asks for a 48 hr. review, I provide that opportunity with no hesitation as I do try to accurately describe what I am selling.
I have had good experiences to report with exception to one sale where the buyer thought that a new set-up was needed (it had a good recent set-up) and he was going to do it himself, which turned out to be a total screw up. He returned it to me after he totally fudged the job requiring me to return it to a luthier for a new set-up before attempting sell again.
I then sold it to a Cafe Member in another state, of which I remain in contact and whom is totally happy with the mandolin.
Driving to an instrument that interests you is just not always an option. I find good camaraderie with Cafe members and think most aim to please.
I think with each sale most members make a donation to the Cafe which keeps the Cafe alive and a valuable resource for members.

[pops1]

While I have not sold anything thru the cafe yet, I have bought 4 instruments and have had great experiences with them all.

[Eddie Sheehy]

If an Approval period is not explicitly stated in the ad you should request one before purchasing.

[dwc]

I have bought and sold several times on the Mandolin Cafe classifieds. The 48 hour approval period is pretty standard, but it isn't (to my knowledge) required. I am probably one of the very, very few people who have had mixed results wen using the classifieds. I have sold six instruments, each with a 48 hour approval period. All the sales went flawlessly. I have never had an instrument I sold returned, or someone express dissatisfaction with the instrument I sold.

I think I have only made one purchase through the classifieds, but if I recall correctly it also went flawlessly.

I have conducted four trades, as well. Two trades were straightforward and proceeded without any problems, but two trades did not work out; neither wound up being satisfactory for either party. I don't want to get into specifics, airing grievances on the boards is verboten, and that isn't the point of my post.

I mention my trade experiences because I think the vast majority of responses you get will be overwhelmingly positive because, as I said, I think most deals on the classifieds work out fine. But there are a small percentage that don't, for whatever reason, and I think it is important to know going in that it is an excellent system, but not quite perfect.

I think the vast majority of straightforward buy/sell transactions proceed smoothly with satisfied buyers and sellers, but I think trades are a different story. Trades have so many moving parts that there is a good chance someone on one side or the other will come out feeling like they got a bad deal. This isn't the fault of the classifieds, it is simply reality.

[mrmando]

I always offer 48 and try to remember to mention it in the ad; occasionally someone will want another day or two, which has never been a problem. As long as it's mutually agreed on.

If a buyer tweaks an instrument to the point where it needs a new setup and then returns it, I should think the seller is within his/her rights to withhold the cost of that setup from the buyer's refund.

[MikeEdgerton]

The trial period is not required.

Here are some past threads on the subject.

[Jstring]

I've purchased 4 or 5 mandolins from the Classifieds, and sold 4 or 5 as well. I have never asked for an approval period .... and I've never offered one either.

Why? I don't believe that you can tell whether a mandolin is a "keeper" in 48 hours.... it takes a month or two of playing...maybe a few string changes... maybe a trip to my luthier. If I haven't "bonded" with it in a few months, I just put it back in the Classifieds and sell it myself.

I think that as long as the mandolin has been accurately described in the ad, it's not fair to the seller to return it just because you decide you don't like the sound... or the color....or the fuzziness of the case fabric... or the shape of the tuner buttons...

Answering all of the emails, preparing a shipping container, driving to FedEx, crossing your fingers and hoping that the mandolin survives the trip... it's a lot of work and stress. I'd rather sell to someone who has decided that they definitely want that specific model of mandolin... not someone who wants me to ship my mandolin across the country just to take a "test drive".


Just my 2 cents... if both seller and buyer have no problem with the approval period, then hey, more power to them...

[dwc]

As an interesting addendum to the above, I have sold several guitars on Acoustic Guitar Forum. I offer the option of:
1) Free shipping or
2) 48 hour approval period.

No one yet has taken the approval period.

On AGF, I actually posted a thread about approval periods and the majority response was that they were either unnecessary or unnecessarily burdensome.

To add an additional interesting point, I have had violin shops (one shop, but multiple times) ship me multiple $5k+ violins on a week long trial, knowing that I will keep at most 1.

[billhay4]

I might offer this: you are not purchasing a mandolin through the Cafe. Scott merely offers an ad service that private individuals and companies can use to market their wares. You are merely using this service to conduct a private transaction. As I understand, he has no role other than this in the transaction. The Cafe does not handle funds in any way that I know of. Scott will occasionally step in if a dispute occurs, but this is his choice and cannot be expected.
There are ad guidelines, but these are to see that ads are as fair as possible. They do not specify conditions of sale as far as I know.
So, all details of any sale are up to the buyer and seller. If a condition is not stated, and you want it, you need to clarify that yourself.
If you have a question about Scott's role in this, I'd suggest an email to him.
Bill

[pops1]

My daughter works for a flute company and they will ship you several flutes for you to try so you can find the one that sounds good to you. These are not cheap, from $6k to $60k. There is only one place, unless you are at a convention where it is noisy, that you can try them so if you want to sell it is a necessary part of doing business. If you are a private seller there is also only one place to try your mandolin unless you ship and offer a trial. I have bought several mandolins, only one has really spoken to me. Like Jstring says it takes months, but it also can happen in a few days that you know it is definitely not the one, so I prefer a trial. I have only sent one back and not one I bought from the cafe, the neck was not comfortable. I tried to like it and played it a lot for a couple of days, but it bothered my hand. To not have the couple of days to find this out would have meant I had to keep it and resell it, had I been in the store I would most likely have not purchased this because of the neck. A trial period only means you are confident in your mandolin and if the shipping is paid both ways you are really not out much, you can reship in the same box with a little extra tape and time. Lest you demand purchase be at your residence, which few will be able to do, it is the cost of doing business in today's world, and it let's your customer know you stand behind your merchandise so they can buy with confidence.

[Scott Tichenor]

I might offer this: you are not purchasing a mandolin through the Cafe. Scott merely offers an ad service that private individuals and companies can use to market their wares. You are merely using this service to conduct a private transaction. As I understand, he has no role other than this in the transaction.

I feel I need to respond to this, not because of anything you've personally said or done, but someone reading this that is new might not fully understand and I feel it's important to clarify from my point of view.

There's plenty of my role in every single transaction. It occurred before most of you ever set eyes upon the Classifieds and it's ongoing every single day. The strength of the system is it appears there's no screening, no one's minding the store, so everyone is free to act as they chose whether they are honest or not. That's not the way it is. Apparently that perception is strong enough that some folks think it's not necessary to support the 2% suggested donation on a sale, but that's another discussion that is already being covered. I just don't get involved in you arranging the deal until something goes sour. When it does, it gets resolved my way or the seller hits the highway.

As far as approval periods, I have people asking me all the time about dealings with sellers. Stock response: anyone unwilling to provide one, move on. It's a statement of unwillingness to work with a seller. Imagine shopping at a big box store and nothing there could ever be returned whether the item was described correctly or just defective.

To the OP, there are hundreds of discussions about the Classifieds here but like most forums they're buried among the millions of posts. When you inquire in a public space you're naturally at the whim of a few people posting, some with a few transactions, sometimes none, in a nearly 20 year service. Some with opinions I clearly do not share and do not match up with the actual operation of the site. You're welcome to contact me privately for an opinion on a seller or buyer or assistance in setting up a transaction.

[s1m0n]

Scott, I hear where you're coming from, but you might be wise to say that while you try hard to make the process benign to everyone, you can provide no warranty to anyone. Too many factors are beyond your control.

[Jstring]

Apologies if my comments were offensive; I thought approval periods were optional but not mandatory....something for buyer / seller to discuss (unless an instrument was inaccurately described or damaged, obviously... then I'd expect an immediate return)

If it's the Cafe "norm" that sellers should offer a 48 hr approval period, then I will do so from now on. I suppose these discussions, while perhaps repetitive, are productive if they keep everyone on the same page.

A related question: it's usually expected that if an instrument is returned because you just don't like it, you should pay for shipping both ways. What about PayPal fees? If the buyer uses PayPal, the seller pays 3%.... if the instrument is returned, should the buyer eat that 3%? Or does the seller absorb it? I've never seen this discussed, and I've wondered if the Cafe has an official stance on this...

Thanks!

[Tavy]

Apologies if my comments were offensive; I thought approval periods were optional but not mandatory....something for buyer / seller to discuss (unless an instrument was inaccurately described or damaged, obviously... then I'd expect an immediate return)

If it's the Cafe "norm" that sellers should offer a 48 hr approval period, then I will do so from now on. I suppose these discussions, while perhaps repetitive, are productive if they keep everyone on the same page.

A related question: it's usually expected that if an instrument is returned because you just don't like it, you should pay for shipping both ways. What about PayPal fees? If the buyer uses PayPal, the seller pays 3%.... if the instrument is returned, should the buyer eat that 3%? Or does the seller absorb it? I've never seen this discussed, and I've wondered if the Cafe has an official stance on this...

Thanks!

If you refund money received via PayPal then the 3% is refunded to you, so IMO this is almost a non issue - I say "almost" because you don't get the 3% deducted from the postage back. But it's good enough not to worry about unless the postage is really expensive.

BTW if you're using PayPal then you basically have a cast iron right of return in the event of issues anyway, but in any case, I feel it's easier to just say "if you're not happy return it": so far no one has, but I'm sure someone will one day...

[Northwest Steve]

I have more experience with buying/selling fly fishing equipment on forums. I have probably done been on one end or the other of a couple hundred transactions and have only had one line that I never received. I have bought and sold lots of stuff on ebay as well and had good experiences with only a couple of issues. On the Café I have bought or sold about 1/2 dozen instruments, transactions have been good both ways except for one issue when selling a mandolin (bad deal and would NEVER do business with that person again). I think you will find on forums with like minded people that you are better off than buying blind over the internet. You have an pretty good chance that you are dealing with someone who knows and understands something about the instrument they are selling. Opposed to ebay where you see lots of "estate find" and they have no clue other than thy think it is worth a fortune. I would second that the transaction is between the buyer and seller and you should not expect to have a third party (Scott) to oversea the transaction unless it really goes bad. Also you are protected if you use paypal and they almost always side with the buyer.

[Br1ck]

I can't speak for every seller, but for me, I want a buyer to be very happy with their mandolin, and would be very unhappy if they weren't. This is much more important to me than having the money in my pocket. I like to talk to the other party weather buying or selling.

If someone shows uncertainty or trepidation, I just back out with a polite thanks for your consideration. Once I was going to buy a mandolin and offered to pay the freight and insurance as a pay pal gift to save the seller a few bucks. The seller took this as some kind of scam. I just said if you think like that we shouldn't do the deal, thank you.

I look at the amount of posts a seller has and how long they have been here figuring that no one heavily invested in the forum would want to jeopardize their standing here.

I owe the classifieds for me having a really fine Silverangel.

[Jstring]

If you refund money received via PayPal then the 3% is refunded to you, so IMO this is almost a non issue - I say "almost" because you don't get the 3% deducted from the postage back. But it's good enough not to worry about unless the postage is really expensive.

BTW if you're using PayPal then you basically have a cast iron right of return in the event of issues anyway, but in any case, I feel it's easier to just say "if you're not happy return it": so far no one has, but I'm sure someone will one day...

Thanks, Tavy... that's exactly what I was wondering. I've never had anyone want to return anything either, but it's good to know that the seller wouldn't get hit for the 3%.

Steve, I agree completely. I've had probabaly 10-15 transactions on the Cafe Classifieds (mandolins or accessories), and almost every time, it's gone perfectly smoothly.... and I've made new friends. As Scott pointed out, we may not always know what he is doing... but he is working hard behind the scenes to make it work so well.

[sblock]

It might not be mandatory, but offering a 48-hour approval period is (1) the right thing to do, in our community of fellow mandolinists, and (2) good business practice, for folks with integrity. This is not eBay or some off-shore internet front, after all: this is the Mandolin Cafe! Yes, you do have some protection when you buy something using PayPal, but relying on this protection should be a last resort, in my opinion. Ideally, both buyer and seller should be pleased with transaction, and no one should be trying to pull a fast one on the sale, or come away disappointed. The 48-hour approval period allows the would-be buyer to inspect the instrument and see if it lives up to the promise of the ad. The buyer pays usually for insurance and shipping on the return trip, anyway, so still suffers a financial penalty for refusal, which provides a reasonable disincentive against a frivolous return -- usually, a couple of hundred dollars.

In one case, I did have to return a mandolin during an approval period, because the scale length turned out to have been misquoted in the ad, and my hands were just not able to adapt to the longer-than-standard scale (>14") of this mandolin. The buyer was incredibly gracious about it and refunded my money. And I was perfectly happy to chalk it all up to an honest misunderstanding, and to eat the cost of the return shipment. That mandolin sold eventually, anyway, and I eventually got something else from the MC classifieds. And this is as it should have been.

I have both bought and sold several mandolins though the MC classifieds, and the experience has been -- so far, knock on wood -- uniformly satisfactory. I think this place is hugely more "safe" than eBay, for example. I am grateful for Scott Tichenor for his continued oversight, and to the entire community of mandolin players for their better-than-average sense of fair play.

Yes, by all means, offer a 48-hour approval period, and please help to keep the standards high here on the MC.

[T.D.Nydn]

I bought an awesome instrument from Eddie (above), approval or whatever, it didn't matter, he was very easy to work with and the transaction went about as smoothly as you can ever hope for...

[Jstring]

It might not be mandatory, but offering a 48-hour approval period is (1) the right thing to do, in our community of fellow mandolinists, and (2) good business practice, for folks with integrity.

Sblock, we may have different opinions on approval periods. I think it's really inappropriate to question my integrity as a seller.

I'll make one final comment: I try to be a responsible buyer and seller. There have been two times where I bought a mandolin on the cafe and didn't like it.

In both cases, the sellers traded multiple emails and phone calls with me. They also sent extra pictures and sound files. Their descriptions of the mandolins were spot-on. However, in both cases, I just wasn't a fan of the mandolin.

I really felt like the sellers had upheld their end of the bargain; it never occurred to me that I should send it back and make them begin the sale process all over again simply because I didn't bond with the instrument. In both cases, I put the mandolins back on the Classifieds a few months later and sold them to happy buyers.

Not everyone may have the same attitude towards buying and selling as you. If Scott says that he'd like us to offer an approval period, I respect that and I'll do it if the buyer asks.

It's not a question of integrity.

[JeffD]

I bought a mandolin offered in the classifieds. It was a wonderful experience, zero problems, and on top of that the fellow selling it had a lot of wonderful stories about the instrument and about his adventures in music. The instrument was as advertised, and today remains one of my best mandolins.

[sblock]

Sblock, we may have different opinions on approval periods. I think it's really inappropriate to question my integrity as a seller.

I'll make one final comment: I try to be a responsible buyer and seller. There have been two times where I bought a mandolin on the cafe and didn't like it.

In both cases, the sellers traded multiple emails and phone calls with me. They also sent extra pictures and sound files. Their descriptions of the mandolins were spot-on. However, in both cases, I just wasn't a fan of the mandolin.

I really felt like the sellers had upheld their end of the bargain; it never occurred to me that I should send it back and make them begin the sale process all over again simply because I didn't bond with the instrument. In both cases, I put the mandolins back on the Classifieds a few months later and sold them to happy buyers.

Not everyone may have the same attitude towards buying and selling as you. If Scott says that he'd like us to offer an approval period, I respect that and I'll do it if the buyer asks.

It's not a question of integrity.

Yes, sorry, but I think that it does come down to a question of integrity. Plus, I don't think you paid very close attention to what Scott already wrote, above, about sellers who refuse to offer any kind of reasonable approval period! So I will repeat it again. He wrote this (italics mine):

"As far as approval periods, I have people asking me all the time about dealings with sellers. Stock response: anyone unwilling to provide one, move on. It's a statement of unwillingness to work with a seller. Imagine shopping at a big box store and nothing there could ever be returned whether the item was described correctly or just defective."


Amen to that, I say!

Writing from my own perspective, I don't think you can seriously claim to be a "responsible seller" if you take the position that all sales are final -- and blind! -- and that would-be buyers have no right whatsoever to inspect and approve the merchandise. A responsible seller wants both the seller and buyer to feel that they made an appropriate deal. And I have encountered many responsible sellers -- and buyers -- here on the MC, fortunately. May they all flourish.

[Eddie Sheehy]

It's interesting that contentious posts are made by members who use a Nom-de-plume but who will buy/sell using their real name so they can in fact post contrary to their actions, and there's no verification.

[Mandoplumb]

I can certainly see where Jstring is coming from, if the seller is above board and goes out of his way to provide you with all the features and condition of a mandolin and when you get it you don't like it for some personal reason why should he have to start the selling process all over. What Jsrting is saying as far as I can tell is if the reason I don't like it is totally me then it's my responsibility to work put of it. I think more people should take that aditude. If the seller knowingly or unknowingly left out some important information or mis represented the mandolin in any way then he should take it back,