Songwriting: How do YOU find your melody?

[9lbShellhamer]

Lyrics come easiest to me, and I can come up with tons of different chord progressions, but...

Even though I'm not a skilled singer I have always played my chord progression and created the melody in my mind and voice first with whatever lyrics I'm working with.

However, I'm thinking it might be better to play my mando along with a backing track of the chord progression to create melody for the lyrics, since I'm a much better player than singer.

How do you fine folks find your melody lines while writing?

I'm excited to try out a few new songs...finding melody notes while playing along to the backing track I've created.

The more I venture into singing, the more I realize the voice REALLY is an instrument in and of itself. Good singers practice those lines, just like I practice a mando break. There are tricky vocal parts, and by mimicking others you can learn and become familiar with techniques and different scales. An example is that I find it very easy to play a blues scale riff in all keys on the mando, but very hard to sing that same riff WITHOUT hearing it first.

Anyways... I'm excited to wander into this field.

[farmerjones]

T. we're getting into one of those weird places. When creating stuff I sort of don't know and don't want to know where or how it happens. I guess, I don't want to jinx it. By trade, I'm a side-man. But if something comes along I write it down. I had a real hooky chorus come to me this morning. By the time I got it jotted down, part of a verse came. It was like somebody singing it to me in my mind. So the melody was there with the lyric.
Okay, so later on when I'm putting my coat on, it occurred to me, it was the same melody as My Walking Shoes Don't Fit Me Anymore. I was not as bummed about it as I once was. Now I realize, there's really nothing new under the Sun. There's all kind of songs that share all kinds of melodies. Even more songs that share the same chord progression. I think why I don't write a lot, is because I can usually lay my hands on a tune/song that shares my sentiments. It's when I don't, that's when something bubbles up. Fictional example: When a monkey steels your turtle. How do you feel about it? What are you going to do about it?

One thing I can do is compose instrumental Waltz's on the fly. There's only so much that is a Waltz. I don't consider it a big deal. Maybe that's why I can do it?

[JeffD]

I have tried composing melodies, and even taken some courses and workshops on composition, and I cannot create a tune that interests me, much less delights me as much as the tunes already out there.

I mentioned this to a composition workshop leader once who explained something interesting. You cannot write a tune that delights you, any more than you can tickle yourself, or tell your self a joke that has the impact of being told a joke. Its impossible. You are in the way.

But you can write music that interests and delights other people, which, after all, is the point. Figure out what interests and delights others, and go after that. Don't be distracted by how little you feel about what you wrote. Those feelings come from your expectations, which are not relevant as that they only apply to music of others to which you are exposed.

I have not accomplished this, or even gotten close, but I think there is some wisdom in there.

[Mike Snyder]

I don't do lyrics, cannot bear the feeling that my words are hackneyed trite maudlin and foolish. I love creating melodies and tunes but have trashed EVERY ONE of them for one reason. As I play the new tune I slowly come to the realization that it is virtually identical to some Irish trad or old-time tune I have heard or played in session over the last 40 years or so. Such is the way of aural tradition, and variations of a tune often crop up as new tunes. I just cannot get over feeling that my tunes are too derivative of old tunes to qualify as legitimate original music. Often the A part is derivative of one tune while the B is similar to another and the C part, or ending, or turnaround is a mix of other tunes. Not a huge deal, and I hear it very frequently in sessions, a bunch of hornpipes have close similarities. No bother with tunes in session, but I cannot get over this as a "composer". My conclusion is that I am NOT a composer, and I've stopped recording my tunes or trying to put them into notation. Not life-crushing but a small disappointment. Should have started as a youngster, perhaps.

[Kris N]

I mentioned this to a composition workshop leader once who explained something interesting. You cannot write a tune that delights you, any more than you can tickle yourself, or tell your self a joke that has the impact of being told a joke. Its impossible. You are in the way.

I'm going to have to disagree with the composition workshop leader, to some extent. I'm not speaking for all musicians, but if what I am creating isn't interesting or delightful to me, it never leaves the room. While I've never been on the radio, I've played enough shows to know when I play something I'm not in love with, the feeling isn't there and the audience notices.

@9lbShellhamer - I would agree that playing along with a recorded track to find the melody would be a good option. It will allow you to try several different versions out, even meshing a few, to find that perfect one.

[farmerjones]

Yes, I don't think "delight" is the right word, but I have heard good songs being described as the writer's emotion laid bare.
Irony, justice, truth, and a whole bunch of sentiments can be personal to the writer, and if it's shared with the listener and they agree, or somehow learn something about themselves in the process it's a good thing.

I think a good melody sings itself. i.e. "Granny Does Your Dog Bite?" If that phrase doesn't sing itself, at least it has a good strong meter. The Old Grey Mare Came Bounding Through the Meetinghouse, is another.

Another thought: "Yeah, Yeah, Baby, Let's Drink Some Beer!" is just as valid, and has probably made more money, and made more folks happy, than any Deep Scarring Emotional Turmoil song.

Elton John approached Leon Russell to do the Reunion project. Leon asked what should we write? To which EJ answered, "Up tempo baby!" I just can't see it as whoring yourself to write popular songs. I can't pose as an urbanite, they'd see through that, but beer and sex are universal.

[David L]

I have tried composing melodies, and even taken some courses and workshops on composition, and I cannot create a tune that interests me, much less delights me as much as the tunes already out there.

I mentioned this to a composition workshop leader once who explained something interesting. You cannot write a tune that delights you, any more than you can tickle yourself, or tell your self a joke that has the impact of being told a joke. Its impossible. You are in the way.

But you can write music that interests and delights other people, which, after all, is the point. Figure out what interests and delights others, and go after that. Don't be distracted by how little you feel about what you wrote. Those feelings come from your expectations, which are not relevant as that they only apply to music of others to which you are exposed.

I have not accomplished this, or even gotten close, but I think there is some wisdom in there.

I don't think I agree with you. There are some tunes and songs that I have written that still delight me (other tunes, not so much)

[Mark Wilson]

It's usually starts with a short phrase attached to a melody that I let spin on it's own til a full melody takes form around it.

I wait on lyrics til the melody and cadence is the way I like it. When I try shoehorn an already written lyric into a melody it tends to lack cadence and sounds dull to my ear. Many can and do well at it. I had been told by a few experts at song writers workshops that this was backwards and I accepted that until I read where Paul Simon said he would not allow the lyrics to form until he had the music the way he liked it.

Writing lyrics last for me requires substitute mumble words and non-sense phrases to form the music around. Then I write to fit the cadence. It's weird maybe but I have tried the other way (lyrics first) and suck at it.

I took up mandolin to use in songwriting but 3 years later I'm fixated on fiddle tunes.

[T.D.Nydn]

[QUOTE=JeffD

....." You cannot write a tune that delights you,"...

Jeff,,,,I am constantly coming up with material that both delights and excites me,,,the problem is I'm probably the only one...

[JeffD]

I don't know what to make of the workshop advice actually. But I do know I have never been able to come up with anything that is as interesting or fun as the average fiddle tune I know.

Composition is magic.

A video I watched recommended noodling yourself into an interesting melody. I have done a lot of noodling. But anything repeatable is likely to be a fragment of fiddle tune.

Another video recommend coming up with a rhythm first. Like farmerjones said about writing a waltz. The rhythm gives you a firm place to start.

I dunno.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Regarding writing song 'lyrics',i've no idea,but in the Book ''Masters of The 5-string Banjo'' by Pete Wernick & Tony Trishka,Bela Fleck mentions that he keeps a recorder by him in case any 'new tune thread' should pop up. He doesn' trust it to memory alone.

I've come up with a few good banjo tunes over the years whilst 'noodling' around.The only problem was that when i began to 'flesh them out' into a full blown instrumental,i ended up getting totally lost in the process & the 'new' melody ended up sounding like a ''Foggy Mt Breakdown'' ( or 'whatever') re-write.

I think that one advantage of playing with a band is that the other members can add their own ideas to a tune / song & the melody doesn't get bogged down in one person's mind. Where one person might struggle,2 or 3 might get it done !,
Ivan

[farmerjones]

Contrary to my moniker, I was brought up amongst fine artists. Some struggled. Some got successful. I never thought creating new things as something I couldn't do. In fact the inverse. While I don't put creativity on a pedestal, I don't truly hold it in contempt either. But it helps me to have a sort of contemptible attitude towards creativity. Just like it helps me to have an optimistic attitude towards memorization. We're all human. One step up from a monkey. Beethoven, despite all the celebrity was human.

Back to melody.
I was thinking about 12 bar Blues this morning. Formulaic? Yes. Good stuff? Absolutely.
When somebody write something and it sound too similar to something else, consider the Blues.
If said new creation didn't fall into the format of the Blues, it would not be the Blues.

Fiddle tunes with shared A , B, or C parts; I'm pretty sure that's how new fiddle tunes got propagated from holler to holler, historically. I've also hypothesized, new fiddle tunes were created by not faithfully reproducing the first tune. Filling in with imagined notes where the memory failed.
Tradition seems to not favor taking credit for a new tune also. Giving a new tune the façade of age when it may not be. As they say around the campfire, "There's only ten fiddle tunes brought over from the olde sod, three of which are Flop Eared Mule."

[JeffD]

As they say around the campfire, "There's only ten fiddle tunes brought over from the olde sod, three of which are Flop Eared Mule."

"There are only two fiddle tunes. One is Soldiers Joy. The other one isn't."

[JeffD]

Beethoven, despite all the celebrity was human.

Yes of course. But when you listen to a tune by Beethoven, so achingly beautiful, and to know that every note in there was a choice out of alternatives, and how the beauty and agon of his phrase seems to rest often enough on a single unexpected note choice - well it is amazing to me that we are of the same species.

Bach, Mozart too, but I am working on some Beethoven these days and chasing that beauty is one of the most fulfilling things I have done in a long time.

[farmerjones]

Yes, it's fun to ponder genius.
Interesting too, how it can be a curse or a blessing.
The world would be a poorer place without Bach, Beethoven & Mozart.
Also, Art Tatum, Oscar Peterson, and David Grisman. We're so lucky.

[JeffD]

Right now I am a fan of tunes where the progression of notes counts. Even if played fast the melody is in the progression of the notes.

There is some music, some Chopin comes to mind, and perhaps some jazz, and rock too, where many of the notes are there to decorate what is a simpler melody, or maybe just to provide a flurry of virtuosity in a transition from here to there, but we aren't meant to slow down and look at each note as long as we land there starting here.

I am unable to write either kind of tune, but I do enjoy and prefer the first kind.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Jeff - I have quite a large selection of Classical music & Italian Opera,& very often,whilst listening to a piece of music that i've chosen to listen to,the realisation that as good as i may ever become on any instrument,compared with these giants of musical creation - i'm positivley nowhere !!!. A very humbling experience.

If it's musical ''decoration'' that you're after,then the music of the 'Baroque' period is essential listening (but you'll know that). For some of the most 'elegant & eloquent' music of that era,have a listen to Handel's ''Concerto Grossi'' opus 3 & opus 6. Then there are the Eight 'Symphonies' by the English composer William Boyce - very 'Handelian' / 'Bachish' in nature. I put Symphony in commas,because the symphonic form at that time only lasted about 10 to 15 minutes. It was up to the 'newbies' to expand on the Symphonic form. Here you have 8 Symphonies in just over 1 hour .
Ivan

[AlpineDave]

Yes, it's fun to ponder genius.
Interesting too, how it can be a curse or a blessing.
The world would be a poorer place without Bach, Beethoven & Mozart.
Also, Art Tatum, Oscar Peterson, and David Grisman. We're so lucky.

Yes. Vladimir Horowitz once said that if Art Tatum ever took up classical piano, he was quitting.

[JonZ]

https://www.amazon.com/Songwriting-S.../dp/087639151X

This book might interest you. It takes the perspective that there are many entry points to songwriting, and explores how to develop them.

[T.D.Nydn]

Right now I am a fan of tunes where the progression of notes counts. Even if played fast the melody is in the progression of the notes.

There is some music, some Chopin comes to mind, and perhaps some jazz, and rock too, where many of the notes are there to decorate what is a simpler melody, or maybe just to provide a flurry of virtuosity in a transition from here to there, but we aren't meant to slow down and look at each note as long as we land there starting here.

I am unable to write either kind of tune, but I do enjoy and prefer the first kind.

I agree with this sort of thing, where ' to many notes' count as legitmate melody,that a lot of people might not understand,like in jazz for instance, where it's the combination of phrasing and flurries that make up the melody ....

[mandocrucian]

Something to keep in mind, or start thinking about and consider - the sequence/process of how one puts together an instrumental, or song shapes the final result.

If you want a different result, or to try avoiding repetitiveness and clichés, change the order of elements in which you construct your magnus opus.

Lyrics

• Rhythm & meter / structural form 12-bar, 8-bars repeated - chorus - and or bridge etc.
• Chord progression
• riffs or rhythm figures, bass lines
• Melody
• The particular instrument used in choosing the musical elements

also

• are you putting a tune to someone's existing lyrics, or having them put words to your tune?
• are either the musical part or the lyrics a joint effort?
• Do you really have something to say, or is just a diversion or product?

Want a different result? Choose a different flow path?

How about.... PURE MELODY first? Just melody, no particular chords to adhere to.
If you've already chosen a particular progression; you've also limited your choices for where the melody goes. If you get a melody line first.....you can decide what chords you want to put underneath it (and you may have options of different chords working under the same exact melody). Put words to that, rather than putting pitches to the lyrics.

[Willie Poole]

Some song writers say figure out the melody first and then work on the lyrics and then say both will happen at the same time which I found on two songs that I have written...I have been driving along and think up some great lyrics and when I get home and try to remeber them I am lost same with a instrumental tune that I was working on, I told the band members that I would run it by them at out next gig or practice and when that time came I could not even get it started...having a recording device with you could help solve that problem as Ivan pointed out...It is not uncommon for two or more songs to have the same melody or close to the same melody. "Walking Shoes", "Rolling In My Sweet Babies Arms" and "Will You Be loving Another Man" are all pretty close to each other and my does these as a medley...

To my way of thinking it takes a special talent to be a song writer, according to Bill Anderson that is where all of the money is, not in playing music...

Keep at it you might just write a hit song...

[farmerjones]

Humans strange critters. Wise seem to play to their strengths, while some seem to think the grass is always greener, elsewhere.
I know writing one or two songs a year, the odds are against me being published, but it's just like Niles says, "I have something to say." Not often, but I find it more sincere than if I forced it into a monthly, or weekly thing.

The curse of the ex-deejay: "Heard that. Played that."

[Jim Garber]

I hear tunes in my head. Sometimes they are the ones that I am working on and sometimes they are ones that just pop up. The joy of living in our times is that you can record on your phone. If I hear something I record it on my phone then transfer it to my computer, otherwise it is gone. Some of the tunes are not worth much of nothing and some are pretty decent.

Years ago a friend of mine, an excellent fiddler, wrote a tune that his band played and wrote some silly words to it. I was visiting with a 78 record collector and heard a very obscure Quebecois tune that I swore was the same melody even including the odd meter and added beats that Quebecois tunes are noted for. I asked my friend but he said he never heard that tune and that might be likely, tho the collector did have a radio show that we all listened to and he said he may have played that disc one time. Strange.

Considering there are really only 12 notes in Western music it is possible to write existing music as a single melody line.

[JeffD]

Considering there are really only 12 notes in Western music it is possible to write existing music as a single melody line.

One of my favorite short stories of one of my favorite authors, Jorges Luis Borges, is about a writer who decides to write Don Quixote. It is a hilarious story that takes itself vary seriously. The writer decides to immerse himself in the scholarship and inspirations that influenced Cervantes to write the original in order to himself come up with Don Quixote.

"He did not want to compose another Quixote —which is easy— but the Quixote itself. Needless to say, he never contemplated a mechanical transcription of the original; he did not propose to copy it. His admirable intention was to produce a few pages which would coincide—word for word and line for line—with those of Miguel de Cervantes.