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Thread: What makes a classical mandolin?

  1. #26
    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: What makes a classical mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post

    BTW tho of no comparison at all to Joe's instruments, Lloyd Loar's ViViTone mandolins have a spruce back with f-holes but I don't think they have a double soundboard like any of the ones discussed here.
    Joe mentions that the double soundboard really isn;t that at all. The interior soundboard is a full plate, not like a Virzi, and does all the work. The true back of the instrument is there just to hold the thing together, and functions more like a toneguard, so when he holds the instrument, the interior soundboard can vibrate freely. An interesting concept.

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  3. #27

    Default Re: What makes a classical mandolin?

    Just played my Bruni Jacobs Orchestra model and here's a few points I lke about it:

    -wide nut(31mm)
    -round neck profile
    -a little larger shape than an Italian mando
    -zero fret( no need to see a luthier to get rid of intonation problems on the lower frets)
    -21 frets (no extension getting in the way of the pick)
    -Short scale lenght (33mm)

    It has a maple bowl and should I ever decide to add one with a rosewood bowl, it will have most of the criteria mentioned, especially the wide fingerboard and the round neck profile. I come from a guitar background, and being able to play ringing open chords is one of the assets of a stringed instrument, at least for me...

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  5. #28
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: What makes a classical mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlieshafer View Post
    Joe mentions that the double soundboard really isn;t that at all. The interior soundboard is a full plate, not like a Virzi, and does all the work. The true back of the instrument is there just to hold the thing together, and functions more like a toneguard, so when he holds the instrument, the interior soundboard can vibrate freely. An interesting concept.
    The oddity of Joe and Brian's design is that the top is walnut and the soundboard that does all the work would be the backboard of most instruments. I would like to know how and why the spruce interior soundboard "does all the work" when the bridge is still situated on the walnut top. We would need an acoustic engineer (paging Dr. Cohen!!) to explain what the difference is and what the effect soundwise is. I agree that a Virzi would not be considered a double soundboard since it is not a full plate. I am not sure why Joe would say that the mandolin does not have a double soundboard. Generally a stringed instrument soundboard should have some direct connection to the vibrations cause by exciting the strings. In that case the top, whatever substance it is made from, would be the primary soundboard and any other plate would be a secondary soundboard (esp if it were connected, say, by a soundpost of some sort). So this mandolin is set up with a hardwood primary soundboard and a spruce secondary one, the opposite of most standard mandolins,

    It would be great if we could get Joe or Brian to comment on the design of this instrument and what their collaborative aim was in designing it.

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  7. #29

    Default Re: What makes a classical mandolin?

    I have to agree the world you are coming from will make all the difference. If you played violin you'll like everything smaller
    I would add that, if the music you play was conceived for the violin, a narrow nut works fine, even if you have absolutely no violin background, In the Ranieri method, there are a lot of violin duets by F.Mazas, and I enjoy playing them on my Suzuki. I can even imagine playing them on a smaller nut mandolin. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnhznYaMAAQ

    On the other hand, there are those mandolin solo pieces by Marlo Straus or Hugh Boyde (Astute music) where the mandolin is treated more like classical guitar, with open strings and fretted notes ringing into each other, and for that kind of music, my Jacob bowlback with a wider nut opened up a whole new world of possibilities.
    OK, before I got it, I played this kind of pieces on my mando-tuned uke. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7NhpJ4jCrA

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  9. #30
    Registered User Martin Jonas's Avatar
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    Default Re: What makes a classical mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    The oddity of Joe and Brian's design is that the top is walnut and the soundboard that does all the work would be the backboard of most instruments. I would like to know how and why the spruce interior soundboard "does all the work" when the bridge is still situated on the walnut top. We would need an acoustic engineer (paging Dr. Cohen!!) to explain what the difference is and what the effect soundwise is. I agree that a Virzi would not be considered a double soundboard since it is not a full plate. I am not sure why Joe would say that the mandolin does not have a double soundboard. Generally a stringed instrument soundboard should have some direct connection to the vibrations cause by exciting the strings. In that case the top, whatever substance it is made from, would be the primary soundboard and any other plate would be a secondary soundboard (esp if it were connected, say, by a soundpost of some sort). So this mandolin is set up with a hardwood primary soundboard and a spruce secondary one, the opposite of most standard mandolins,

    It would be great if we could get Joe or Brian to comment on the design of this instrument and what their collaborative aim was in designing it.
    I wonder whether Brian may have been influenced by the Harry Garmont mandolin from 1951 -- see the plans and descriptions in this old thread:

    Link

    Garmont's design also had a carved second soundboard in the middle of the sound chamber. In that case, the second soundboard was connected to the top and the bridge by a soundpost, presumably for the very reason you have mentioned. It also had f-holes in the top and the back (Vivitone style).

    Martin

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  11. #31
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: What makes a classical mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Jonas View Post
    I wonder whether Brian may have been influenced by the Harry Garmont mandolin from 1951 -- see the plans and descriptions in this old thread:

    Link

    Garmont's design also had a carved second soundboard in the middle of the sound chamber. In that case, the second soundboard was connected to the top and the bridge by a soundpost, presumably for the very reason you have mentioned. It also had f-holes in the top and the back (Vivitone style).

    Martin
    Hah! Watch it, Martin. I got into a bit of hot water years ago after suggesting that there were precursors to Mr Dean's creations. BTW another interesting multiple soundboarded instrument was the 1906 Martin Model America.

    From Eric Schoenberg's web site:
    A museum quality example of possibly the most unique and exotic guitar ever made by Martin. There was a second one made, of which very little of the original instrument remains, while this one is fully original and in excellent condition. It is an 0-28 with a second, thinner body attached with fancy ebony pins behind the first, complete with soundhole and herringbone binding. There had been a soundpost linking the two bodies which has been removed, assumably by the original owner soon after receiving the guitar in 1906. The bridge is unique and quite different. Not playable at the moment.
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    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: What makes a classical mandolin?

    I'll have to admit to being a bit bemused by the swerve into the obscure and rare sidings of mandolin experiments in a thread about what makes a classical mandolin. By the very nature of their obscurity and relative rarity I would have thought they would be more curios rather than defining designs.

    However they possibly indicate that the world of the classical mandolin is not a conservative one from either a design or an acoustic perspective in the same way as something like Bluegrass would be. Maybe by the very nature of our presence in the "classical" genres we are already revealed as being outré in our musical tastes. From what I have observed on the Cafe and in the UK, we like to explore and experiment with different sounds depending on the sub-set of music we are exploring. This is definitely not the case in the more established German & Italian 'schools'. There is a continuing tension between conformity and experimentation in those areas; I observe a hunger to be taken into the larger classical music framework, by codifying and formalising approaches to give coherence and a well defined identifiable sound, in the two main 'schools' and on the other hand there are the more anarchic individualists who pursue the interesting and experimental innovations with crossover from anywhere interesting.

    Here in the UK we are a bit of a rabble in this respect, just getting us together is an achievement in itself, to try to define a form or style for our mandolins would be to guarantee failure. Even on a personal basis I still find it impossible to decide which mandolin would be definable as my "classical" one. I move between them depending on which factors I need for the given pieces I am playing. Even then I get further tonal changes with different plectra & strings, which is a whole other game in itself. The advantage of the formalised approach in an ensemble situation is that you no longer have that problem to resolve, you take your sound to the pieces and focus on the perfection of the ensemble. In an orchestral setting I would opt to be a mandoloncellist or mandolist as physically that would be my place, even if technically I would enjoy the mandolin parts.

    My only needs in a mandolin spec are;
    Enough room at the nut(33mm) for enabling proper duo-style and chord arpeggios without inadvertent muting of strings. (I currently also play a Calace with a 1" nut that I would find hard to part with, unless it were a similar sounding one with a wide nut. I am very unimpressed with the sound of many wide nut bowlback offerings)
    A deep enough body to give a resonsence and some complexity to the tone.
    A V shaped neck to give a comfortable surface for the side of my thumb to rest on.
    I'm not too fussed about scale length as for me whatever scale chosen becomes normal after proper a warm-up.
    Aesthetics are vital. I don't need nor would I want to play an instrument that was not aesthetically beautiful.
    Eoin



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  15. #33
    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: What makes a classical mandolin?

    Many thanks for all thoughts, still very interested/surprised in the nut width question, and I think crisscross and others have it spot on: a wider board makes open ringing chords so much easier. As I actually spend most of my time playing folky stuff with, yes, open chords, it makes perfect sense why I have come to prefer a wider neck, even though I'm perfectly happy playing single note lines on "standard" neck widths.

    With regard to the Dean/Kerman second sound boards, I have always believed these to function much the same, more like an "inner back" than a true second soundboard (Ceccherini) or a soundboard modifier (Virzi).

    Consider: when it come to trebles, the material used for the top is probably far less important than folks realise, and the sound is generated by direct radiation from the top with only a little contribution from the body. If you want to know what a mandolin sounds like with all the contribution from the body taken out, and a distinctly non-standard top material, listen to this electric mandolin from 9:20 onwards, there's a pretty chunky block of wood joining top to back under the bridge to make sure all the body modes are killed dead (for feedback suppression):



    Then consider that all parts of the body will "feel" the vibrations from the strings, normally the back is:

    a) Heavier than the top.
    b) Pressed against the owners body.

    And so it's ability to resonate compared to the top is reduced.

    But, if you have an "internal back" that's non-structural, then you can make it super-lightweight with hardly any bracing at all, and now if anything, most of the vibrational energy will tend to propagate to the "thing that's easiest to move" - the internal back. I can't help but wonder what would happen if a synthetic membrane was used in that location... OK bad idea for maintenance... and would probably sound like some kind of banjo-mandolin hybrid, but you get the idea.

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    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: What makes a classical mandolin?

    If you're a mando-hugger maybe you should experiment with a hinged version of the grand piano lid to integrate your own tone preserver? It could be made very light and of just enough material to do the job for you while being collapsable enough to fit a standard case. I prefer to do the high/45 deg hold which keeps it free and the back clear so not an issue.
    Eoin



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  18. #35
    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: What makes a classical mandolin?

    In answer to Tavy, Beanzy and Jim's comments, I'll be seeing Joe in a couple of weeks, and make sure to ask him what they were all thinking. The volume and tone coming from it are both excellent, so whatever is happening works.

    In general, the whole lutherie world tends to perhaps get a little too carried away with tradition. The proven ideas absolutely do work, but do others work better? Remember the Balsa violins?

  19. #36
    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: What makes a classical mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beanzy View Post
    If you're a mando-hugger maybe you should experiment with a hinged version of the grand piano lid to integrate your own tone preserver? It could be made very light and of just enough material to do the job for you while being collapsable enough to fit a standard case. I prefer to do the high/45 deg hold which keeps it free and the back clear so not an issue.
    I'm not a mando-hugger myself - although some can be quite cute - but in any case the tone-guard has already been invented. The aim of an internal back goes beyond that: to completely separate structural integrity from sound production.

  20. #37
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: What makes a classical mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beanzy View Post
    I'll have to admit to being a bit bemused by the swerve into the obscure and rare sidings of mandolin experiments in a thread about what makes a classical mandolin. By the very nature of their obscurity and relative rarity I would have thought they would be more curios rather than defining designs.

    However they possibly indicate that the world of the classical mandolin is not a conservative one from either a design or an acoustic perspective in the same way as something like Bluegrass would be.
    Eoin: the swerve you mention derives from John's initial mention here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tavy View Post
    I'm naturally drawn to the designs of Kerman/Dean/Ceccherini, and am sorely tempted to build a Kerman clone just to see what they're like. On the other hand, perhaps folks just want a decent sounding instrument and all this extra stuff is superfluous?
    As for the conservative question, if you look at the different schools of classical playing, within those groups you have a general same choice which has to do with certain tonal requirements and differing playing techniques. Thus, the mandolins that the German school players prefer are wide bodied, wide necked and using T-I strings. The top Israeli players all seem to gravitate to the Kerman instruments. Please let me know if there are some Israeli classical players who do not other than those who cannot afford them. The Ranieri-derived players like Emberghers, playing with light round-wound strings and often using the long pointed Ranieri/Roman picks and other Italians like Calace, Vinaccia or similar Italian instruments. American classical players seem to use almost anything but Lyon & Healy are considered to be mainly for classical music. The Japanese used to prefer Calace since Raffaele visited there about 1905 and started an interest in classical mandolin paying that survives to this day.I can't speak for other areas tho I know at least one Australian, Marisa Carroll who prefers Lyon & Healy.
    Jim

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  22. #38
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: What makes a classical mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beanzy View Post
    If you're a mando-hugger maybe you should experiment with a hinged version of the grand piano lid to integrate your own tone preserver? It could be made very light and of just enough material to do the job for you while being collapsable enough to fit a standard case. I prefer to do the high/45 deg hold which keeps it free and the back clear so not an issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tavy View Post
    I'm not a mando-hugger myself - although some can be quite cute - but in any case the tone-guard has already been invented. The aim of an internal back goes beyond that: to completely separate structural integrity from sound production.
    I have not tried this, but I would imagine that if you could clip a violin shoulder rest to the back of your flatback, you could keep it away from your sound-reducing abdomen.

    Not to get too far off the beaten track but here is the circa 1890 version of the Tone-Guard. This is on a Romito & Carbone mandolin and marked patented by G. B. Marchisio.

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    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: What makes a classical mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post

    Not to get too far off the beaten track but here is the circa 1890 version of the Tone-Guard. This is on a Romito & Carbone mandolin and marked patented by G. B. Marchisio.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    That looks like a mandolin chastity belt. Ouch.

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    Default Re: What makes a classical mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    That looks like a mandolin chastity belt. Ouch.
    Keeping a pure tone, faithful to the original.
    Eoin



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    Default Re: What makes a classical mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    I have not tried this, but I would imagine that if you could clip a violin shoulder rest to the back of your flatback, you could keep it away from your sound-reducing abdomen.

    Not to get too far off the beaten track but here is the circa 1890 version of the Tone-Guard. This is on a Romito & Carbone mandolin and marked patented by G. B. Marchisio.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Kind of steam-punk actually, or may be the Borg visited Earth in a past epoch?

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  29. #42
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: What makes a classical mandolin?

    Just another example of how inventive minds try to find solutions to chastity or extended tummies.
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    Default Re: What makes a classical mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Hah! Watch it, Martin. I got into a bit of hot water years ago after suggesting that there were precursors to Mr Dean's creations....
    Really....?

    Mick
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    Default Re: What makes a classical mandolin?

    Brian Dean has made a Lyon & Healy style mandolin. Some here have played it at the CMSA conferences.

    http://www.labraid.ca/lyon-healy/

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    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: What makes a classical mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by DougC View Post
    Brian Dean has made a Lyon & Healy style mandolin. Some here have played it at the CMSA conferences.

    http://www.labraid.ca/lyon-healy/
    That one ups Lyon and Healy, for sure

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: What makes a classical mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by DougC View Post
    Brian Dean has made a Lyon & Healy style mandolin. Some here have played it at the CMSA conferences.

    http://www.labraid.ca/lyon-healy/
    What was your opinion of that, say compared to L&H original mandolins.
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    Default Re: What makes a classical mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    What was your opinion of that, say compared to L&H original mandolins.
    Jim,
    I'm sorry I can't answer the question because I have not played an original. I mentioned that others have played it at CMSA so they might comment.
    Decipit exemplar vitiis imitabile

  36. #48

    Default Re: What makes a classical mandolin?

    Peter Coombe also builds a nice Lyon& Healy style mandolin, but with a more basic headstock design.
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    You have the choice between 33cm and 35cm scale length.
    I guess for me, the shorter scale length is one of the essential factors of a classical mandolin.
    Whether it's a bowlback, flattop or an archtop. that's the builder's busines.

    I'm still waiting for a L&H Copy with a shorter scale by Collings.
    Last edited by crisscross; Nov-06-2016 at 4:33pm.

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  38. #49

    Default Re: What makes a classical mandolin?

    I'll second, or maybe fifth lol, the desire for a wide fingerboard. I would also like a built in pick up, that would be classier than a mic. Personally, I'm not fond of the shorter scale though. Flatbacks are great too. I'm excited to see what you come up with.

  39. #50

    Default Re: What makes a classical mandolin?

    Can I make a comment here that the soundboard on the Labraid is actually at the back. It functions as a back. It is different than some of the Italian bowlbacks which had a separate soundboard at the top which were mechanically coupled to the top. So Ceccherinis therefore have a second soundboard (which is usually defined as being mechanically joined to the bridge in some way, and not driven just by air movement and the movement of the sides, which I would call a "back"). Of course for marketing purposes it's been acceptable, or at least tolerated, to call any internal spruce plate a sound board, but that can get confusing.
    No idea how the Kerman functions, or where the internal "sound board" is located on those.

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