So few women

[Demetrius]

Honestly, I think it must be where you live cause that certainly isn't the case in Nashville right now. If anything I think the female artist out weigh the men. And going outside of bluegrass here, have you looked at the pop or country charts lately?
Women are doing just fine lol...

[foldedpath]

Honestly, I think it must be where you live cause that certainly isn't the case in Nashville right now. If anything I think the female artist out weigh the men. And going outside of bluegrass here, have you looked at the pop or country charts lately?
Women are doing just fine lol...

Those are good points, but if you're talking about successful female performing artists, then that's not what the OP is talking about:

Too often I am the only representative of my gender at the jam (OT, BG)

Amateur jams operate by their own rules and local cultural influence. Doesn't matter if there's a star female performer in the genre, if the local amateur jams aren't drawing women to participate. And there are probably many reasons for that. Some have been discussed here, but it might just be down to what the local community is like, and who is dominating the local amateur jams.

For example, there is a State-level association of OldTime Fiddlers out here in outskirts of the Pacific Northwest where I live. They sponsor jams, dances, and workshops. A few years ago, the local chapter of this supposedly instrumental-oriented fiddler group was somehow taken over by a gaggle of singer/songwriter guitar players. They turned the jams into basically a Folk and Country music jam. A single mic and a PA system, everyone taking turns singing a song and banging on a guitar. Mostly if not all guys, of course.

The fiddlers (many of them women) were P.O.'d and basically went elsewhere for instrumental Oldtime jams. I haven't kept up, they might have wrassled back the local chapter and kicked out the Country-wannabe guitar players by now.

It happens. Jams are a dynamic, unpredictable thing. We can't draw too many conclusions from what happens in any one area.

[allenhopkins]

[1] I think that several "schisms" within our little musical communities have emerged in this discussion -- which, if we all remember, started out by asking women were under-represented at jams. Then we got into a discussion of vocals vs. instrumentals, which I think is another thing altogether. And then we added observations on basic male/female "gender roles," and whether women wanted to hang around with shiftless irresponsible male musicians anyway. So the focus of the original question has been severely blurred.

[2] I do agree that there is an inherent difference between those who want to mostly sing, and those who want to mostly pick. As a co-producer of a regional fiddlers' fair, I used to work on scheduling a Friday night jam the night before the actual festival, where early arrivals and campers could get together, play and sing. What I found out was that the hard-core fiddlers wanted to play tunes, and had little patience with those who wanted to sing, and the singers didn't know what to do (other than perhaps chord their guitars) during the fiddle tunes. We finally had to admit that there needed to be two separate groups, in different locations -- though I still maintain that, if the singers and the pickers could have been a bit more open-minded and cooperative, we could have had some really nice evenings.

[3] Bluegrass, however, always has featured picking and singing. Any jam I've participated in, has included vocals and instrumentals, and singers have been respected as well as hot pickers. So I would doubt that women (or any other defined group) would stay away from bluegrass jams because they want to sing. Maybe some would want to sing more that others (men?) who want to pick more, but there should be room for both.

[4] As I said, my experience here is that women are represented, though not in as great a proportion as in folk sing-arounds or similar all-vocal get-togethers, at all the old-time and Celtic jams I attend from time to time. Not so much at bluegrass jams, though there are a couple excellent female bluegrass musicians who do participate. I've been working in bands and groups with women for the past 40 years, and some of the strongest instrumentalists I know are female. Plus, I've never seen anyone behave at a jam, in a way that would seem openly exclusionary or offensive to women. Maybe I've just been lucky.

[John Flynn]

There is no reason why music should be treated as some kind of a "male-bonding" activity. Not only is that deeply sexist, but it also does a disservice to the music itself, in my opinion. Music is for everyone. If you want to get away from women, go take a solo hike in the back country, or go camping with a few male friends. Or take a retreat to a monastery. Or join one of those fraternal lodge organizations. But please leave music alone! Music should be all-embracing, all-welcoming. It is a universal expression of the human spirit, and I object to people wanting to turn it into an exclusive men's club. Please find some way to strut your stuff.

Oh, come on! If someone started a thread about women wanting to have a female-only jam, which I have seen, BTW, would you say that was sexist? I wouldn't. I say more power to them. If a guy complained about women wanting an all-female jam, would you say his complaint was sexist? What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

As you imply, music is a universal bonding experience, flexible and expansive enough to be used in multiple different ways for people to bond. If guys, gals, religious or ethnic groups want exclusive musical experiences, it doesn't detract from any other possible human musical bonding experiences. I say keep all the PC and EO stuff out of music.

[dhergert]

Just an observation...

It's interesting how few women are taking part in this discussion. Does the Café reflects real life as far as ratios are concerned?

[T.D.Nydn]

There's a news story about a woman who is 109 years old,,they asked her what was her secret to longevity..her answer was " avoid men"...

[JEStanek]

I'll suggest you bring (not invite) a female friend too your next jam. Then keep adding women to the mix. I would also suggest starting your own where the dynamic can be set level from the start. The dynamics of a jam can be very similar to a board room and if there aren't many different types of voices to be heard, they get drowned out.

The only jam I attend is led by a female fiddler. It's still 60-40 or 70-30 depending men - women.

[JeffD]

Just an observation...

I think there are more women than one might think, as we only have the name to go by and there are many handles not immediately identifiable as male or female.

But yea there are likely more men than women on here.

More importantly, would I behave any differently here at the café if there were a lot more women here? I really don't think I would, because I have always kind of envisioned a mixed crowd here. And because, by the rules of the road, the conversations are pretty much all mando-fixated.

I will talk mandolin with anyone, anywhere.

[Jeff Mando]

Speaking of gender...

Might be a good time to mention Cover Girl cosmetics just signed their FIRST male model, you might have seen him on their prime time tv commercials lately.....(then again, it might not be a good time to mention it!) Not sure if this is a "glass ceiling" issue or not, but if it made me play better I might consider wearing makeup........

I can name more than a handful of exceptional female bluegrass musicians over the last 50 years......I don't know if that proves anything or that society just has not "caught up" yet....

Car racing has a similar track record (pun intended) with female stars getting some attention of late, but certainly not causing any kind of "movement".......

Those of us old enough to remember Rosie Roosevelt Grier, 60's professional football player who liked to crochet for relaxation and was featured on the cover of LIFE magazine, again didn't cause a movement......

My hope would be that artists, which includes musicians, are tuned in to equality and would accept a player of either (any?) gender who has the proper chops at a jam......I having nothing to base that on other than my own playing and experience.

The good, the bad, and the ugly: plenty of poor to average players of both genders featured on youtube and you have to admire their nerve in wanting to share.........I should add plenty of amazing talents, as well.

[Randi Gormley]

I wouldn't guess the ratio of male/female readers on the café, but it does seem that those who comment are mostly guys. It might be interesting to see whether forums that focus on more "feminine" leaning instruments -- what was it, fiddles, harps, flutes, dulcimers? -- and I might add, say, whistles -- have more women or men commenting on issues. That might be a gender thing. Or not.

[Dave Perry]

This is why I left Virginia at an early age.

Hey!

Never lived there myself, but have spent considerable time in that lovely State and met lots of wonderful people there.
I think you may have thrown the baby out with the bath water.

Thank you.

[MikeEdgerton]

There are more women here on the Cafe than one might think. There are however, from everything I have seen, more men than women in the forum membership.

[Christine Robins]

I agree many of the folks posting here that any gender bias may be a regional or local phenomenon.

Here in Oregon, the president the Oregon Bluegrass Association is a women. In gatherings of the Assoc., with 50-100 players attending, there are lots of women. Maybe not a 50/50 ratio, maybe 60/40, but balanced enough that I never pay it any attention. I'm too busy pickin!

Locally, (Corvallis, Eugene), I've attended a few BG jams as the only female. My skill level is pretty basic, but I've experienced nothing but support and encouragement.

[foldedpath]

[2] I do agree that there is an inherent difference between those who want to mostly sing, and those who want to mostly pick. As a co-producer of a regional fiddlers' fair, I used to work on scheduling a Friday night jam the night before the actual festival, where early arrivals and campers could get together, play and sing. What I found out was that the hard-core fiddlers wanted to play tunes, and had little patience with those who wanted to sing, and the singers didn't know what to do (other than perhaps chord their guitars) during the fiddle tunes. We finally had to admit that there needed to be two separate groups, in different locations -- though I still maintain that, if the singers and the pickers could have been a bit more open-minded and cooperative, we could have had some really nice evenings.

Continuing a tangent here I know, but I wanted to comment on that last bit. I have seen exactly the same dynamic in my area, and I don't think there is a solution.

Here's the thing... fiddlers at OldTime (and related) jams are interested in unison playing of tunes, and that's what their skill set is. For the most part, they don't come from a background in Blues, Jazz, or Bluegrass where they know how to play subtle backup behind a singer (which is chaotic with a group of fiddlers anyway), and they don't know how to improvise a solo break. So what are they supposed to do, when a jam gets dominated by the singer/guitar players? A few might try to contribute something, but most end up resting their fiddles in their laps, waiting for the next instrumental tune to roll around.

On the singer/guitar player side, I've seen too many of these types treat other instrumental players in a jam as their personal backup band. They'll hog the spotlight for too many songs in a row because they enjoy having the fiddlers and concertina players around, for whatever contribution they manage to make. They get bored playing too many instrumentals in a row where they can just chunk chords. Not to mention, getting confused if... God forbid... an Irish tune comes up where they don't have the skills to follow the modal changes in the tune.

All of this can lead to hilarious incidents like one my fiddler S.O. reported from one gathering she attended a few years ago. It was an overnight camp-out event, with many clusters of jams happening around assorted RV's and tents. Mostly guitars and banjos, a small group of fiddlers. The fiddlers would try to play some tunes, and like moths to a flame, the guitar and banjo players would slowly accumulate around them, barging in with songs. The fiddlers would quietly leave, one by one, to another spot, only to have the guitar and banjo players slowly drift in again, chasing the fiddlers from one campfire to another throughout the night.

It was funny in retrospect, but it points out how incompatible these two groups are. They just don't get along.

[DataNick]

...It was funny in retrospect, but it points out how incompatible these two groups are. They just don't get along.

I think in a general sense that you are correct and further, they only get along when either
A. the banjo and guitar players are versed in fiddle tunes and old time genre as well as bluegrass, and
B. the fiddlers are versed in bluegrass fiddling

...otherwise a trainwreck waiting to happen.

And btw, when you get in a jam where the participants are fluent in both, it can be magical!

[foldedpath]

And btw, when you get in a jam where the participants are fluent in both, it can be magical!

Oh, absolutely! I've seen that happen a few times. But not often, because the amateur fiddlers who gravitate to OldTime music don't often have the chops for harmony backup, or taking an improvised solo break. It's not part of their training. Especially those who come to the music later in life, like a lot of these players do. They're playing OldTime for a reason.

[DataNick]

Oh, absolutely! I've seen that happen a few times. But not often, because the amateur fiddlers who gravitate to OldTime music don't often have the chops for harmony backup, or taking an improvised solo break. It's not part of their training. Especially those who come to the music later in life, like a lot of these players do. They're playing OldTime for a reason.

I find that interesting and something I've never pondered, because my classical violinist friends who are dipping their toes into fiddling have the same misgivings about improv, because of their training. That's a really interesting dynamic!

Also want to add that typically, 5-string banjo players are more fluent in Scruggs style (quicker to learn) vs Melodic/Keith style(harder to learn), thus most banjo guys have an anathema attitude towards fiddle tunes

...Sorry about the thread hijack...LOL!

[Spruce]

In fact, now that I think of it, all those bluegrass horror stories that I read about on this site, I've never seen nor experienced out here in Cali...

I agree many of the folks posting here that any gender bias may be a regional or local phenomenon.

One of the reasons that I really enjoyed going down the Bluegrass Road for the first time in the Bay Area in the early 70's was the fact that so many women were heavily involved...
In fact, several top notch bands were all women, and really really good...

The Good Ol' Persons started out--as their name indicates--as an all female band (Kathy Kallick, Laurie Lewis, Dorothy Baxter, Barbara Mendelsohn, and Sue Shelasky), as was the Any Old Time Stringband (Barb Montoro, Genny Haley, Kate Brislin, and Sue Draheim)...

Jam sessions were always a 50/50 deal, which I loved after coming from the male-dominated world of rock 'n roll...

But I remember going to IBMA for the first time (when it was in Owensboro), and the scent of testosterone was overpowering...

I remember hanging with a fiddler we all know and love, and watching her getting elbowed out of one jam after another was just baffling...

Things have changed, but I think there still are regional differences pertaining to the issue...
...and Gawd, I love the Pacific Northwest...

[Pete Martin]

...and Gawd, I love the Pacific Northwest...

Me to, Spruce!! There are LOTS of great women players up here. It is wonderful.

[LillianBelle]

Things have changed, but I think there still are regional differences pertaining to the issue...
...and Gawd, I love the Pacific Northwest...

Lol, my PNW breast cancer support group included two men, one who had breast cancer and one who had lost his wife and wanted to give any support he could to women going through the same thing.

None of this "eww, girl cooties!" here. (or, "eww boy cooties!" either)

[Charlieshafer]

I find that interesting and something I've never pondered, because my classical violinist friends who are dipping their toes into fiddling have the same misgivings about improv, because of their training. That's a really interesting dynamic!

Also want to add that typically, 5-string banjo players are more fluent in Scruggs style (quicker to learn) vs Melodic/Keith style(harder to learn), thus most banjo guys have an anathema attitude towards fiddle tunes

...Sorry about the thread hijack...LOL!

Now that I've eaten and everything is quiet, I'll add another 2 cents worth. This and some of the previous posts from Folded and Alan are pretty revealing. I'm now convinced more than ever it's a generational thing. I know this hijacks the thread somewhat, but then again, maybe not. If you want a more open and dynamic jam, get younger players. They're more diverse in their repertoire, have no problem with taking fiddle breaks in between the singers, and can improvise and fill beautifully. The primary reason is something Data touched on with his comment on training. The younger players have more complete technical training. There are holes, for sure, but they're more adaptable. Even a kid with a few years of Suzuki is technically more capable than a lot of the adults we see.

From a fiddle standpoint, a lot of it comes down to the teachers, and whether or not they are capable of teaching multiple styles, and most are not. We're currently working with a couple of Berklee profs to run a masterclass for teachers on making fiddle noises for classical teachers. Or, basically, how you can teach certain fiddle styles to the students who are looking for more than just the same thing over and over. No idea how successful it'll be. One of our fiddle club regulars is a 20-something girls who first attended one of our bluegrass camps for kids about 10 years ago and went on to major in violin performance at Ithaca. She's now back in the area teaching and putting together a band.

All these dynamics are changing now based on what the younger players are doing, and yeah, women are at the forefront of this movement. So women at jams? If they're not there now, just wait.

[Bill McCall]

Maybe it is a NW thing, but I go to 2 jams hosted by women, and see women on all instruments all over the place, including playing the 'non-feminine' instruments, whatever they are. And it's not atypical in small jams in nonbar settings for the women to outnumber the men.

And I suspect more women are put off by boorish men and avoid many situations than men are put off by disagreeable women.

[Fretfet2]

To OP, where I live I see a mixed of males and females at the jams I attend. However it is often a higher percentage of men at times. I have received a lot of support from both sexes and have been fortunate to have a network of people I can contact to play at smaller private gatherings. I don't care what sex they are if they are interested in playing I'm happy to get together for a jam or a practice session. At jams anything can happening so I have had some unusual comments or suggestions made during playing with some strangers but I just look at it as people stepping on each other's toes. ( I was leading a song in a jam once and one of the folks offered to pass the breaks around for me. I was not sure how that would work). ( I also had a instructor suggest to me that bluegrass should be played by males. I asked him why he taught females. He said so they could have some fun. It was odd. Don't think he was big on teaching me to flat pick songs on a guitar.) I cringe when someone says oh just have fun. Of course I want to have fun but it feels like my desire to improve and work hard is being brushed aside. I just try to put my head down and keep working on things. I do enjoy having females to jam with and I love when some of the female band leaders join in a jam . Great role models. The thing I desire most is people that are respectful and supportive of each other's playing.

[allenhopkins]

...when a jam gets dominated by the singer/guitar players?...

I guess my question is that verb. If one sees a jam as a contest for mastery between incompatible groups –– men vs. women, singers vs. pickers, "trad" bluegrass vs. newgrass, banjos vs. everything else -- there's likely to be no compromise or accommodation. My idea of a good jam is one where there are men and women, and when instrumentalists cheerfully back up the vocalists, and vocalists gladly lay down rhythm for the pickers.

Isn't that what bluegrass is supposed to include, vocals and instrumentals, hot pickin' and good close harmonies? Shouldn't be tension/hostility, right?

[Dagger Gordon]

Hi,

I'm pretty late to this discussion, but I might say a few things:

Firstly, I'm a bit out of touch with the bluegrass scene, but from a slight distance I would note that one of my favourite mandolin players is a woman - Sharon Gilchrist. Unbelievably good on the Peter Rowan/Tony Rice Quartet album, but seriously under-recorded (which I guess might tell you something right there). And as has been noted, the likes of Sarah Jarolz and Sierra Hull are great mandolin players, although they both seem to be re-inventing themselves as singers who often accompany themselves on octave mandolin. Nonetheless, they seem to me to be some of the brightest new names in 'Americana' music.

Secondly, in Scotland so many females now play the fiddle that I think it is in danger of being considered a somewhat 'girly' thing to do. Seriously. Contrast that with a band I was in in the mid-seventies where our female fiddler was so unusual that we were sometimes referred to as the band with the girl fiddler. Admittedly there were hardly any fiddlers around at all then, so you can see how things have changed.

Some of the strongest players of Scottish music I know are female. I often play with a couple of accordionists who are really excellent.
I have to admit that I don't know too many female mandolinists (Laura Beth Salter, an English girl living in Scotland springs to mind) but there are certainly some good guitarists like Anna Massie and Jenn Butterworth. Indeed Anna is as good a guitarist as I've ever heard (and she can also play mandolin, tenor banjo and fiddle so there you go).
And don't forget some of our better known singers like Julie Fowlis, who is also a great instrumentalist, mainly on whistle but also bagpipes and oboe (she played that at school).

Meanwhile in Ireland there are so many female musicians that it hardly seems worth even trying to start making a list.

So I really don't recognise the 'So few women' situation in my own life.