1915 F2 original finish question

[Karl Hoyt]

Greetings: I'm moving along with a refurbishment of a 1915 F2. Body was pretty solid but the neck was trashed... so I replaced the neck (including a carbon fiber reinforcing spar) and added an x brace to the top , did a little graduation to the top and back (kudos to Jonathan McLanahan , who has refurbished a few of these babies and gave me some pointers) . I also harvested the original 'the gibson' out of the original headstock and inlaid it into a new piece of ebony. THAT was a challenge and a half.....

So it's back together... and I'm feeling pretty good about the whole job so far. My question for the Gibson Historians is about the original finish: i think, from what I've read it was a varnish finish. What does that mean, exactly? Is this an oil based varnish or was is spirit based?.....and what exactly is spirit varnish? Shellac? I've mostly built basses and acoustic guitars, so the whole varnish concept is a new one for me.

If you have a brand of varnish you prefer, I'd like to know.

Thanks in advance for your recommendations. And please forgive me if I've opened up a discussion that's been beat to death. A forum search didn't reveal anything helpful.

Karl

[Karl Hoyt]

My apologies on beating a dead horse.......... I continued to scroll around the vintage instrument category and found a couple very instructive threads....I think I'll give the epeithane/french polish finish(over aniline, padded into the wood).... a try o some scrap prior to making the leap to this old beauty..... if other folks have other thoughts I'd love to hear them.

Kfh.

[lenf12]

Hi Karl, there must also be a ton of good reading in the Builders forum. IIRC John Hamlett did a restoration of the sunburst on an old F-4 and hence his MC moniker "Sunburst". He documented the process very well and it's worth looking for. Another poster to look for would be Gail Hester. Good luck with this old gal and keep us posted.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[Karl Hoyt]

I found the most in-depth info on old finishes in the vintage instruments section. Thank you for your response and yes, I'll keep you all posted.

[Timbofood]

There was a guy who used to run an art/paint store back in the old days. He told a friend of mine that: "Every now and again someone would come in from the company and get this!" He then held up a can of "Benjamin Moore 4T5 quick drying varnish".
So there's one voice from the distant past heard again! I have a picture of the label somewhere.

[mandolinstew]

There was a guy who used to run an art/paint store back in the old days. He told a friend of mine that: "Every now and again someone would come in from the company and get this!" He then held up a can of "Benjamin Moore 4T5 quick drying varnish".
So there's one voice from the distant past heard again! I have a picture of the label somewhere.

McCloskey Heirloom was good,came in flat,eggshell,satin,semi gloss and high gloss.Used it on furniture and guitars.

[Timbofood]

Was that available in the appropriate time frame?
This was an OLD guy.
Al Lakey, Lakey's paint and art store. I was lucky enough to have known the old gent a little at least. He had stories that's for sure!

[mandolinstew]

Was that available in the appropriate time frame?
This was an OLD guy.
Al Lakey, Lakey's paint and art store. I was lucky enough to have known the old gent a little at least. He had stories that's for sure!

I found the McCloskey at my fathers(I'm 64 years old) I think it was from the 1950's.But he also had that Benjamin Moore and Valspar from the 1920's.

[Vernon Hughes]

Here is what they used I believe.From credible sources.

[Karl Hoyt]

Thanks for the feedback , all. I had a nice e-discussion with a fellow at epifane about the formulation that Collings and others have used: The epifane clear varnish in a 50/50 mix with their accelerator, which makes it harder and dries quicker. Sand between coats and let it cure for well over a months before polishing. This was the system I had decided upon except for one thing. Now that we're heading into the winter months, and I work out of the basement, the off-gassing from the varnish is pretty stinky stuff. This will most likely cause marital dischord. So I'm going the spirit varnish route and using royallac. Shellac/alcohol doesn't stink anywhere near as much..... happy wife/happy life! Also, my friend Max Girouard uses it and the results, as evidenced by his gallery page, are stunning!

I will be trying the epifane stuff on other guitars probably in the spring when I can do my coating in my shed and let it hang out there.

I appreciate the feedback from everyone. I have 30+ years building acoustic guitars and acoustic bass guitars but am a rookie with these weird little 8 stringed things :-) .....

My kitchen is already smelling excellent! I hope yours are too! Enjoy your Thanksgivings and for goodness sake , keep religion and politics off the agenda today. :-)

Karl Hoyt

[mandolinstew]

Here is what they used I believe.From credible sources.

Looks like tung oil,linseed and phenolic resin.Maybe extra driers to make it quick drying.(how quick was quick?)

[Hendrik Ahrend]

I believe we're talking this: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ibson-Finishes and possibly this: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...on-and-Varnish

[Timbofood]

Thanks Vernon, that's the one.
"Quick" was 24 hours, on a warm, dry day.
And, yes, that's the story and photograph, Henry!

[sunburst]

...IIRC John Hamlett did a restoration of the sunburst on an old F-4 and hence his MC moniker "Sunburst"...

I don't recall restoring the finish of an F-4. I just picked "sunburst" as a handle because I applied so many sunburst finishes when I worked "at the factory" that I felt like it was something I was adept at.

Since I'm here, all of the pre-1921-or-so Gibsons I've worked on seemed to have a spirit varnish finish of some sort. Apparently not pure shellac, but apparently shellac based.

[Karl Hoyt]

Greetings

I have finally finished the 1915 F2. If you have been following the thread, you will recall that I completely rebuilt and re-voiced this little puppy. It was a busy winter for me and other projects took precedence. But finally I got it done! This mando belongs to a local family whose great grandfather bought it new and supposedly took it with him to Europe in WWI.

I have to give a big thank-you to Max Girouard, who recommended this new-ish product called Royal-Lac. It is a shellac-based varnish which has added polymers to address the problems with shellac, namely blushing from sweaty arms, and melting if in contact with alcohol.

I hand-rubbed the burst and then shaded with a touch up gun, then applied probably 9 coats of the product: DRY sanding in between every 3rd coat. After the final coats, I let it dry/harden for over a month and then wet-sanded to 2000 grit and machine buffed.

I'm very pleased with the results. Royal Lac also sells a catalyzed version which can be wet sanded and buffed in under a week. I'll probably use this on the next batch of instruments I do in the fall. I can't wait to hand this little bit of family folklore back to them!

The website for Royal-Lac is: www.shellacfinishes.com.

Cheers: Karl Hoyt

[Karl Hoyt]

Couple other thoughts: the original color was an opaque brick red and a black top. Granted the wood was nothing spectacular: non figured red maple for the back/sides and a red spruce top, but i wanted to replicate the original color with some translucence so that what grain there was still came through the finish.....I'm pretty pleased with it. I also left some of the scratches and dings in the top. It is, after all, a 102 year old instrument and it should show its scars. I have the pickguard , but it is crumbling, so I think I'll leave it off.

[MikeEdgerton]

There are a few folks that make replica pickguards. If you have the clamp you might consider one. The originals are celluloid and can be hazardous to the finsih and your health.

[F-2 Dave]

Looks great Karl.

[Spruce]

...and a red spruce top....

What makes yo think that's red spruce??
Just curious.

...and--judging from the original pic you posted--I think it's a one piece top with a little wing on the bass side...cool!

[Karl Hoyt]

What makes yo think that's red spruce??
Just curious.

...and--judging from the original pic you posted--I think it's a one piece top with a little wing on the bass side...cool!

Just guessing based on the color of the wood and grain pattern... but it also smells different than Sitka when sanded. Also I seem to have read that RS was the predominant wood of those years.... but it's just a guess.

[sunburst]

There is nothing distinctive about the color and/or grain pattern of red spruce as opposed to any other spruce, except sitka, and seeing that distinction requires magnification. I think that is what Bruce was getting at.
The color, after this many years and after removing the old finish and stain, is nothing like the natural, new color of the wood anyway.

[Karl Hoyt]

As i said: i was speculating as to the top-wood. I thought i had read somewhere that adirondack/red spruce was the main wood used on mandolins back then.... was i mistaken? It really doesn't matter all that much. I'm pretty pleased with my first mandolin restoration. It gets delivered back to the family tomorrow. I'm hoping that they're pleased.

[sunburst]

...I thought i had read somewhere that adirondack/red spruce was the main wood used on mandolins back then.... was i mistaken?...

Probably not mistaken, red spruce probably was used a lot, but in those days, before all the hype and marketing of "tonewoods", spruce was spruce. Could have been European, red, sitka, probably not engelmann, possibly, but probably not white or black spruce. Whatever it is, we can't tell by looking (unless it's sitka and we have magnification and we know what to look for).

If Bruce is correct and it's a one piece top with a wing, that indicates the possibility of it being sitka spruce because sitka trees are much bigger than red spruce trees. A 10" wide piece of clear quartered red spruce is not impossible to get, but it's not easy.