You don't know a fiddle tune until...

[Bertram Henze]

... and take up knitting.

Yes, but you don't know how to knit a pair of socks until...

[AlanN]

The idea is not so much about the aural product of singing - indeed, it could be hummed, grunted, or any sound one makes - but rather, that one conceptualizes (intervals, melodies, etc); typically, 'singing' is the most direct path for techne to express psyche. The same pedagogic emphasis - of singing - exists in jazz, for bassists and drummers, for example. So, it's not so much about your vocal technical chops as it is about cognition.

Agree. I wouldn't call what Slam Stewart does singing (maybe closer to grunting), but he often vocalized his bass lines. And if you check out videos of the great Herb Ellis, he is seen moving his mouth (think Mumbles from Dick Tracy) when he solos. He was in the right band, as Oscar Peterson surely mumbled and grunted his way through his intricate solos.

[ajh]

Been watching this one with interest to see where it heads.

My own take is that you "know" a tune when you can play with someone else/others...... mess up and get back into synch immediately.

[FatBear]

Good grief I was playing for fun and to jam a few times with friends. If I have to play it forwards, backwards, up down, down up. I guess I'll just throw the mando in the fire place and take up knitting.

We're all different. Some people are A+ personalities and actually enjoy going to the extreme. I bet most of the really awesome players are of the A+ type. Others of us are more easy going about things and just enjoy having some fun. That's where I am, too. Neither view is right or wrong. There's room for all of us.

If you do take up knitting, be sure and do it in 4/4 time. Then you can at least double as the percussion session.

[JeffD]

You don't know a fiddle tune until you have forgotten it.

[FatBear]

You don't know a fiddle tune until you have forgotten it.

By that criteria I know almost everything.

[fatt-dad]

You don't know a fiddle tune until you have forgotten it.

I love it when folks call, "possum up a gum stump" 'cause I never can remember that melody! After the first lap though, I'm all on board! There are so many tunes like that I just don't care any more. It's what makes a jam fun! I typically practice what I'm recording or working on in my duet. All that other stuff surfaces in jams and it's fun to return to memory lane!

f-d

[Tobin]

I never forget fiddle tunes. I forget that I know them if they slip off my regular playing regimen, and I seem to have a tough time remembering their names. I'll even get rusty on the fingering or picking patterns. I also forget how to get them started. But the tune is always there, ready to be played in my mind once I hear the first bar or two. Like an old friend.

[fatt-dad]

I never forget fiddle tunes. I forget that I know them if they slip off my regular playing regimen, and I seem to have a tough time remembering their names. I'll even get rusty on the fingering or picking patterns. I also forget how to get them started. But the tune is always there, ready to be played in my mind once I hear the first bar or two. Like an old friend.

yes, I guess this is sort of me too.

f-d

[ralph johansson]

I never forget fiddle tunes. I forget that I know them if they slip off my regular playing regimen, and I seem to have a tough time remembering their names. I'll even get rusty on the fingering or picking patterns. I also forget how to get them started. But the tune is always there, ready to be played in my mind once I hear the first bar or two. Like an old friend.

Bill Monroe at U of Wisconsin, ca. 1966:

-Richard (Greene), we have a request here for Bucking Mule. You know that one?
-Uh, under some other name, probably.
-Well, we're gonna play it under the name of Bucking Mule.

Monroe kicks it off, and after one chorus of mandolin Greene enters forcefully. He may very well have learned the tune right there, on stage.

[Jess L.]

... My own take is that you "know" a tune when you can play with someone else/others...... mess up and get back into synch immediately.

Excellent point. Being able to gracefully recover from errors and get back into the tune where it's at *now*, not where one left off.

My piano teacher used to nag me about the fact that I would stop after making an error, I wanted to restart the piece, she said no, keep going, don't stop. It was hard to learn to do that! But her incessant encouragement to "keep on playing" finally had an effect and so I worked really hard to get over that hurdle, glad I did, it made it easier for my other music (like fiddle tunes).

And as you said, getting back into sync *is* greatly facilitated by knowing the tune well enough to know where to quickly jump back in again after an error. Or at the very least, knowing or 'hearing' that particular tune's chordal structure well enough to play some harmless non-clashy generic notes (that don't conflict with the current chord) as filler for a few notes until you get your bearings and pick up the melody again.

[farmerjones]

. . . .she said no, keep going, don't stop.

A valuable, valuable thing to learn. Also, as you said, a hard habit to break. Piano aside, fiddle tunes are dance tunes. So keeping rhythm is important.

Seems once you get good at recovering, the need to do so diminishes. Then one picks up a new tune and the process starts again. But also play and enjoy tunes you consider you know already. We keep learning subconsciously.

[Mark Wilson]

Seems once you get good at recovering, the need to do so diminishes.

Truth

[ralph johansson]

A couple more thoughts that may have been stated already.



2. The key. Most fiddle tunes are traditionally played in particular keys. Since they generally are not sung, we have to ask why insist on a certain key. What I find is that each tune captures a particular technique, fingering, riff, or other musical statement, or two, to practice for improving one's violin playing. Trying to play that series of notes in another key or position is informative, but the technique is lost and it does not sound the same. So, I would add that knowing a fiddle tune involves discerning the technique that it teaches in it's traditional key and mastering that bit of technique or sound. Not so much playing those notes in another key or position.

Indeed. Just look at the examples I posted earlier. That passage in Brilliancy for 2 1/2 bars alternates between fretted and open notes on the e string. If you transpose it to different key the effect is lost. Sailor's Hornpipe is played in several different keys, but the most natural (and possibly traditional) one is Bb because it offers nice phrase turns on the open d and a strings. Bluegrass guitarists for some odd reason like to play Beaumont Rag in C or D (capoing up), but really, the traditional key of F gives a lot more bounce because it offers a wealth of nice closed chord forms on the guitar. And, with two guitars, it separates their ranges better.

Often the choice of key involves drone effects on open strings. I suppose that is the case with tunes like The Gold Rush and St. Anne's Reel. Hoswever, I find these effects less effective on mandolin, so I sometimes play these tunes a half step higher, in Bb and Eb, respectively. These keys have a very nice physical feel to them. And the keys of Bb and F may be the most versatile of all on mandolin, because you can combine open and 2nd position in intriguing ways.

Arkansas Traveler is traditionally in D, and guitarists like to use a capo on the second fret - I've found some nice effects and some very guitaristic stuff playing it open, including a high (just below the 12th fret) arpeggiated version of the 1st part. On mandolin I don't find much of interest.

[Charlieshafer]

Not having read all the posts, this may be a repeat, but the whole point of fiddle tunes is not having to know this stuff. You just learn the bones of it and play. By ear, by sheet music, who cares. Once you're in a group setting, you just go with the flow. You know a few bowing patterns, or picking patterns, and just apply those when it sounds right. Moving up ir down a key or two, no big deal, it's all the same pattern when you have an instrument tuned in fifths, so you just have a different starting point. Some of the most influential string bands were just big happy messes, and that's the fiddle tune vibe, at least as far as old-time goes. yeah, ITM and Scots are more precise, and you can go that way if you want, but if it's not fun, it's not fiddling.

[foldedpath]

Not having read all the posts, this may be a repeat, but the whole point of fiddle tunes is not having to know this stuff. You just learn the bones of it and play. By ear, by sheet music, who cares. Once you're in a group setting, you just go with the flow. You know a few bowing patterns, or picking patterns, and just apply those when it sounds right. Moving up ir down a key or two, no big deal, it's all the same pattern when you have an instrument tuned in fifths, so you just have a different starting point. Some of the most influential string bands were just big happy messes, and that's the fiddle tune vibe, at least as far as old-time goes. yeah, ITM and Scots are more precise, and you can go that way if you want, but if it's not fun, it's not fiddling.

Well, it's not that Irish and Scottish trad musicians are more precise. It's that they're using far more ornamentation than OldTIme or string band fiddlers. That style of ornamentation developed in first position, which allows free fingers for cuts, taps, and rolls that simply can't be done with the same degree of ease and expression in closed position and unusual keys. The open strings in G,D,A,E also facilitate double-stops in the keys commonly used for fiddle tunes, which is one common ground with OldTime players.

And finally, there is the "playing with other instruments" factor. An Irish trad fiddler (or mandolinist) is likely to be sitting next to someone at a session playing high D whistle, keyless D flute, pipes, concertina, or button box accordion. All of these are diatonic instruments, not fully chromatic. Many of the common "fiddle tunes" were originally composed on these other diatonic instruments, which is why players in this genre generally stick to the tonal centers of D, G, and their related minors and modes.

You can't just arbitrarily decide that you're going to shift a tune into Bb when playing with instruments that can't handle the key change, even aside from how it would screw up ornamentation. At least not in a social setting like that.

Sometimes you have to even change how you call or play fiddle tunes with certain instruments in the room. For example, avoiding too many modern fiddle compositions with important phrases on the fiddle/mandolin G string, because keyless flutes and whistles can't play lower than your D string. Or avoiding tunes with important notes that fall on a G# if you play with pipers, because they don't have that note, and it's tough to finger with half-holing on a keyless flute or D whistle. An important thing to learn when playing Irish/Scottish trad is understanding how the other instruments work, not just your own.

I actually find it fascinating that so many great tunes can be played in such a narrow scale range, and in so few keys and modes. Sometimes restrictions lead to magic.

[Charlieshafer]

Well, it's not that Irish and Scottish trad musicians are more precise. It's that they're using far more ornamentation than OldTIme or string band fiddlers. That style of ornamentation developed in first position, which allows free fingers for cuts, taps, and rolls that simply can't be done with the same degree of ease and expression in closed position and unusual keys. The open strings in G,D,A,E also facilitate double-stops in the keys commonly used for fiddle tunes, which is one common ground with OldTime players.

I actually find it fascinating that so many great tunes can be played in such a narrow scale range, and in so few keys and modes. Sometimes restrictions lead to magic.

You're right about he position issues,and I'm aware of that, as we play it all, but a lot of Celtic is in the first position as well, with an occasional shift. The preponderance of Scots/cape Breton are in A, and Irish in D. Not everyone, of course, but it's pretty typical. Right now we're working on a James Scott Skinner set. Anyway, that's not the point of what I was trying to say. I think I'd disagree on the ornamentation, though. While some of the early old timers didn't do much, the past 20 years or so have seen an explosion in old-time ornamentation. But I guess the point there (that I'm sort of coming to in my own mind right now) is that old-time is far more open to interpretation and experimentation. Starting with the first wave of new-old-timers, like Highwoods and The Correctones, things morphed quickly with bands like the Horseflies and Crooked Still. And beyond ornamentation, at our last workshop, we had a great time talking with Darol Anger as he tried to count how many different variations in just bow holds he now uses, teaches at Berklee, just for old time alone.

So my point really was this: do you know a fiddle tune for the enjoyment of playing, or as an example to be used in music theory, or as a tool for technical development? If it's just for fun, the second two don't matter.

[foldedpath]

You're right about he position issues,and I'm aware of that, as we play it all, but a lot of Celtic is in the first position as well, with an occasional shift. The preponderance of Scots/cape Breton are in A, and Irish in D. Not everyone, of course, but it's pretty typical.

We must travel in difference circles. Sure, a lot of the pipe tunes are in A (actually A mixo, often), but Scottish and Cape Breton pipers play plenty of D, G, A dorian and E dorian tunes too. There are a ton of great Irish tunes that get played in sessions around here in Bm, A dorian, E dorian, G, D dorian. It's not all in D major by a long shot.

Right now we're working on a James Scott Skinner set. Anyway, that's not the point of what I was trying to say. I think I'd disagree on the ornamentation, though. While some of the early old timers didn't do much, the past 20 years or so have seen an explosion in old-time ornamentation. But I guess the point there (that I'm sort of coming to in my own mind right now) is that old-time is far more open to interpretation and experimentation. Starting with the first wave of new-old-timers, like Highwoods and The Correctones, things morphed quickly with bands like the Horseflies and Crooked Still. And beyond ornamentation, at our last workshop, we had a great time talking with Darol Anger as he tried to count how many different variations in just bow holds he now uses, teaches at Berklee, just for old time alone.

With respect, I think you're conflating variation with ornamentation as if it's the same thing, and it's not. I've never heard an OldTime player, or even a modernist like Darol Anger, play additional notes (often not directly pitched) around the main melody notes the way it's done in Irish/Scottish trad.

But variations, often improvised on the spot, sure! And the same thing happens with higher-level Irish/Scottis trad players, who use variation in addition to ornamentation so you're not hearing the tune played exactly the same way through several repetitions. That's more of a performance thing. But a little of that can work in pub sessions too, as long as it's harmonically consonant and doesn't throw the rest of the group off the rails.

So my point really was this: do you know a fiddle tune for the enjoyment of playing, or as an example to be used in music theory, or as a tool for technical development? If it's just for fun, the second two don't matter.

I don't know anyone in the groups I play with socially who doesn't play the music for the enjoyment of playing, and not as some technical or theory exercise. The same thing goes for the world-class Irish, Scottish, and Cape Breton musicians I've met. There are better paying gigs if you don't love the music and have fun playing it.

But I don't see how you can separate technical development, or even a little bit of theory, from playing for enjoyment and fun. It's all mixed together. That is, unless one is content to remain at the beginner level forever. There are some things that simply aren't achievable without a little bit of knowledge and technical skill, while you're on the way to having all that fun.

[Charlieshafer]

We must travel in difference circles.
With respect, I think you're conflating variation with ornamentation as if it's the same thing, and it's not. I've never heard an OldTime player, or even a modernist like Darol Anger, play additional notes (often not directly pitched) around the main melody notes the way it's done in Irish/Scottish trad.

I'm sure we do travel indifferent circles! No problem with that at all. But I do know the difference between ornamentation and variation, and that's probably the main difference between the two. True, triplets or cuts or trills don't often appear in old-time. But, ornamentation around notes of other types surely does. That too, is perhaps regional difference.

When I speak of different bow holds and bowing, there's a whole vocabulary of stutters, jumps, chunks and chops that are in pretty much every young fiddler's toolbox, at least in New England. All these get used to ornament various notes within a phrase. Not a variation, they're ornaments. The length of the note, and a subtle variation in pitch, greater than vibrato, becomes ornamentation as well, much like the way Albert King would bend strings join his guitar.

I think what we're running into here isn't as much a technique thing, but a generational thing. We've hosted a large number of Irish/Scots fiddlers through the years, and they do all hold very tightly to their tradition when playing the old tunes. And then you have players like Alasdair Fraser who, after sticking tight to some traditional stuff, will then switch gears and turn to a classical/jazz crossover section. It happens with old time fiddlers as well, where half are set in their ways, the other half not so much.

And by all means, theory and technique are important, we're pretty intense on those at the workshops we hold, and even the youngest kids inner "fiddle" club have to take classical lessons for technique. But, my phrasing was in response to the original post, where it seemed like the poster was way too worried about aspects that can get in the way if those become the main goal. We're strongly considering using movement as a way to "get to know" fiddling. Soon as the weather breaks, we're going to try having a couple of our our really great technical classical players, who have a hard time loosening up, head outside in the sun and play while walking around, then eventually sort of swing to the beat, then even trying to dance while they're playing. They'll protest, but then we'll bring April Verch on down and turn her loose on them. Anything to get past the technical angst and on to the emotional drive.