Sustainably grown tonewood?

[nkforster]

Nigel that looks amazing!

How do you find customers feel about "non-solid" back and sides (even if under the veneer they are solid woods)?

It depends on the person. If you get a person who already thinks they know everything about how an instrument should be made you can have a problem, and there are more folk like that in part because of the internet and sharing of information. So they are best off buying what they already want. Once the materials they want run out or become scarce because of regulation some will be stuck with the used market (no shortage of stuff there) and some will consider opening their mind.

When I made the first instruments that were laminated with solid wood and a man made liner (for mass and volume) the reactions were very polarised - either they loved the results and so didn't mind the weight, or they hated the weight so had no interest in the sound. It was a good lesson for me - despite what folk don't tell you, sound is not top of the list, the eyes often come first, then comes pre conceived notions about how instruments should be, and at some point, the ears get a chance. Folk vary of course and for some, sound is first, but they are rarer than they used to be.

So with that in mind it's easier to sell instruments made using non standard ideas and materials if a) the eyes are happy, b) the instrument doesn't contradict too many commonly held theories (like instruments should be light and made of this or that) and c) if it sounds better than what they already have.

The easiest way to sell instruments is to sell folk what they already want, and with laminated sides already considered a good thing in the guitar world because of makers like Somoygi and his many offspring, it's becoming easier to sell laminated guitars as long as they look nice and sound good.

The other thing is to not draw attention to it - let the results speak for themselves. That laminated bubinga back has the same veneer inside and out. It's not obviously laminated. The fact it's spruce inbetween has historical precedence, it's an old technique. So whilst you certainly don't lie to or deceive the customer about how its made, you let them try or hear the instrument, and if they love it, then you talk about the construction. If you always talk about the construction first as many makers do as a "selling point" you'll loose a lot of folk because of their prejudices.

A good example - does this sound like a guitar made with "modern materials" because it is:



As is this:



So here, I let the sound do the talking, when someone gets in touch I don't answer many questions I just send them a price list. That gets rid of the ones who are not serious. Then I direct them to a post I've written about my construction techniques. That sifts out the ones who have fixed ideas and it leaves me with people who I enjoy working with rather than having to convince or educate people which is rarely worth the effort.

nigel

[nkforster]

Regarding woods for guitar backs & sides,Maple is widely used for mandolins,so why not use it more for guitars ?.

There's also Cocobolo,which as used by Robb Brophy (Elkhorn Mandolins) produced possibly the most awesome mandolin back i've ever seen - is that a sustainable,easily obtainable wood ?. Robb's use of Mango for mandolin backs & sides has also produced some mouth watering instruments.
Ivan

Maple may become more popular as rosewood becomes more of a hassle for makers to import and export but the current situation is very clear - maple flat top guitars do not sell as quickly or for as much as their rosewood kin. Years ago in corresponding with a US dealer about what to send him that will sell his response was to tell me what NOT to send him - no parlour guitars and no maple guitars. That was a shame as I had a very nice maple parlour that had been unsold for years in the cupboard!

Cocobolo is a rosewood, so no, it's not sustainable and has been listed on CITES for a few years now

Nigel.

[Stephen Perry]

I see three prongs.

1. In an infinite steady state world farming tonewood is not an issue. Set aside tonewood farms, manage the woods carefully, run whatever cycle is required. It's just farming. 500, 1000, 2000 year cycles. Maybe strips, individual trees, whatever. That seems feasible except for the time scale. Around here, old growth characteristics arise in about 40 years. So there's the start point. Add 100 years, not too bad for some woods. That's only 2150. Long time to wait for ROI to materialize. I don't think Morgan Stanley is going to front $2.5M for that venture.

2. People are using up and breaking up the natural world pretty fast. That's a major challenge. Any long term tonewood business has to be assuming that people will care about farmed old-growth type tonewood in 150 plus years.

3. Long-term wood farming assumes the trees being farmed will like where they are being farmed for long enough to be farmed. Take a nice careful look at climate research, CO2, methane etc. Even harder to get that $2.5M from Morgan Stanley. Your trees may need to be movable.

[carbonpiou]

Although I have, like perhaps many of you, built mandolins and other carbon instruments, I completely agree with Don and Marty. Given its manufacturing process, carbon is not at all a solution to the problem posed.

Concerning woods, like Marty, also, my knowledge in the matter are very insufficient to bring something concrete and positive.

I know, for having read it, that certain manufacturers of musical instruments (guitar, in particular) have undertaken a process of protection and rational use of the wood used. I also know from the same source that there would be a lot of work to be done at the sawmill level. A large percentage of the wood would be unsuitable for the manufacture of musical instruments, simply because they were badly cut at the sawmill.
Concerning the mandolin (and the string quartet instruments) it is known that many instrument-makers have benefited (and are still profiting) from old (even old!) Woods recovered during the modernization or The restoration of certain buildings (religious, in particular)
I do not think I'm going too far in saying that any instrument builder worthy of that name will never throw away an instrument that can not be repaired without having previously recovered the least amount of wood that could still be used.

Some ideas go in the right direction, but they are neither universal nor perennial ...

[Jim Garber]

I haven't read through all posts on this thread but I was interested in the ekoa instruments made by Blackbird a company that also makes carbon fiber guitars and ukes. I have played their concert size uke, the Clara and it was amazing. I am not sure environmentally how it compares with std carbon fiber, but here is some info from their site on ekoa.

And some talk about how it compares acoustically to CF:

Ever since launching Clara, a concert ukulele made of our own Ekoa® fiber, folks wanted to understand it and how it compares with carbon fiber. The latter having been our tone material of choice for the previous 8 eight years. To understand the differences, it helps exploring the greater context of composites manufacturing in general as well as Blackbird composite process specifically. We use carbon fiber bracing, plates as well as different thicknesses and fabric types to achieve a desired mechanical objective: optimal stiffness-to-weight ratio. Having more options is intrinsically good, so adding Ekoa to the mix offers lower density, a new mechanical dimension to better optimize for 'vintage' tone. Ekoa brings that warmer, 'woodie' sound via the soundboard and body. To achieve a wonderful and still warm sound to the carbon fiber instruments, Blackbird has been using similarly low density Aramid (commonly known by tradename Kevlar) since the early days for vibration damping which 'warms-up' the sound. So the two materials can be used to achieve a specific sound and tailor the instrument down to the last tonal detail and get us the tone we're seeking and in the case of Ekoa, it's a vintage sound. Accordingly, Clara ukulele, Farallon and El Capitan composite guitar have all the mojo hitherto-fore only found in vintage instruments. Ekoa-brand high-performance, eco-friendly linen fiber composite for all the stability of carbon fiber but the look, feel and sound of wood. With the El Capitan guitar, musicians get what was previously unobtainable — the experience of a premium, vintage old-growth wood instrument in a lightweight, durable and sustainable package. The naturally vibration dampening Ekoa is lower density than old growth spruce but stiffer and in two directions rather than only one. Learn more about how Ekoa makes for the most earth friendly instruments on Earth here

I think I wrote to them at some point to see if they would consider making an ekoa mandolin but I think the answer was no for right now.

[Marty Jacobson]

The flax fiber has a real possibility, I think. It does not look like faux wood, but it looks intrinsically warmer than carbon fiber, like something you would use around a campfire rather than something you'd use if you were Batman. I think carbon fiber looks awesome, but for a more sustainable material to appeal to more people, it needs to feel warm and rich.
Here's another take by Flaxwood, a Finnish company, using injection molded flax-fiber filled resin. I do think there is a real opportunity for someone with a million bucks or so to make really good sounding acoustic injection-molded archtop mandolins. They won't get rich, but they'll make a lot of people happy and it might be a good thing for the environment, too, if using sustainable materials and the products they build are durable as well as eventually biodegradable, as in the case of flax fiber + PLA resin.
I think you could make a decent mandolin line with unpolished instruments that sound good at the $250 price point, all the way up to sunburst, fancier instruments at the $1000 sound point. They would all sound the same, but consistency is good for the business model. I don't think the market is ready for it yet, but as labor costs around the world continue to rise and when wood and regulatory costs get to that point where a KM-150 costs $1000, it will be a game changer.

[Spruce]

That stuff looks great Bruce, what is it? Hand painted?

Yep...

Yeah, well better than that anyway.

Yeah, well maybe a Fender photoflame is more up your alley...

Personally, I love it, and am actually looking for a guitar sporting faux BR (playable or not)--what a wonderful example of utilitarian folk art at it's best...

[pops1]

I used to have an 1890 Bruno parlor guitar that you would swear was really nice Brazilian rosewood, but was hand painted mahogany. Very similar to yours Spruce.

[Jim Garber]

I was interested in the ekoa instruments made by Blackbird a company that also makes carbon fiber guitars and ukes. I have played their concert size uke, the Clara and it was amazing.

A guitar shop in NYC had one of the Clara ukes and I spent a good 20 minutes playing one. One of the loudest but also sweetest sounding ukes I have played and I have a good handful of excellent Martins. They are, of course, not for the traditionally-minded but the combination of the material and the design of the instrument truly works. Take a listen here. I think they are onto something and the uke sounded and resounded all the way up the neck.

[David Newton]

I haven't read all the words that have come before, and I don't know what the word "sustainable" means this week.
What I know personally is I can go to any place that sells wood and get enough to build another guitar, and that guitar will sound and play as good as any guitar found in any music store.
Granted, it will not look like almost any guitar in a music store, and there's the rub.
People want to buy guitars that have wood that was harvested in the deepest exotic jungle.
There will always be enough wood for me to build another guitar.

[nkforster]

The flax fiber has a real possibility, I think. It does not look like faux wood, but it looks intrinsically warmer than carbon fiber, like something you would use around a campfire rather than something you'd use if you were Batman. I think carbon fiber looks awesome, but for a more sustainable material to appeal to more people, it needs to feel warm and rich.
Here's another take by Flaxwood, a Finnish company, using injection molded flax-fiber filled resin. I do think there is a real opportunity for someone with a million bucks or so to make really good sounding acoustic injection-molded archtop mandolins. They won't get rich, but they'll make a lot of people happy and it might be a good thing for the environment, too, if using sustainable materials and the products they build are durable as well as eventually biodegradable, as in the case of flax fiber + PLA resin.
I think you could make a decent mandolin line with unpolished instruments that sound good at the $250 price point, all the way up to sunburst, fancier instruments at the $1000 sound point. They would all sound the same, but consistency is good for the business model. I don't think the market is ready for it yet, but as labor costs around the world continue to rise and when wood and regulatory costs get to that point where a KM-150 costs $1000, it will be a game changer.

I'm not sure if Flaxwood guitars are still in business Marty. Their website hasn't been updated for a number of years and I wrote to them about a year ago with a view of utilising their technology for my instruments and their was no response, not even an autoresponder.

n

[carbonpiou]

At the risk of disappointing those of you who believe in it, I doubt that flax fiber can have a significant future in the manufacture of musical instruments, except to manufacture industrially (injection, blowing, compression, and Other automated processes ...) instruments which will certainly be financially accessible to a large number, but which are likely to disappoint users, both the acoustic properties of this material are totally incompatible with the musical field.

Why do I allow myself to write this?

During the last 4 years of my professional career (in technical plays, not at all in the field of music!) I was led to use linen, in substitution for carbon. It should be noted that this choice did not only respond to ecological and even economic criteria.

I will explain to you why as simply and as briefly as possible.

In the world of the very technical part (automobile, aviation, spacial, etc ....) the carbon presents exceptional mechanical and physical qualities (resistant, rigidity, weight, and ...). It is for these reasons that it is chosen and used. On the other hand, it presents a big defect!
An enormous defect, even!

It is the power of carbon alone to transmit vibrations and sound waves. If, for example, in the case of a chassis or a car body, there was no way to eliminate most of the natural acoustic properties of carbon, I can assure you that you would have to travel with Anti-noise headphones and an anti-vibration cloth.
This means already existed and it was very optimized for this purpose: it is the epoxy resin.

It is for this reason that I do not understand why certain manufacturers of composite musical instruments (carbon or other) strive to use epoxy resin.
But this is another story....

Given the very negative environmental impact of carbon, research has resulted in substitute products for certain uses, particularly in the case where certain carbon properties are not essential.
Know that if linen fiber has been selected and used, it is also because it was naturally neutral (or almost) in terms of acoustic and vibratory transmissions.
And you want to make musical instruments with this ?

As my favorite quote is "I believe what I see" I wanted to try, since my favorite occupation, since I no longer work in a company, is to make musical instruments.

So I have at your disposal an acoustic guitar with cut pan, painted white with "traces of wear" whose body and top are made of linen fiber. Fortunately, because I doubted the rigidity of flax, I had the good idea to realize the carbon neck and head. This allows this guitar to emit an audible sound a few meters away, if the windows of my apartment are closed.

Sorry for bad english...

Here is his picture
(Note that picture was made after installing 2 pickups on the guitar so you can still use it)

[Marty Jacobson]

I hear you loud and clear Jean-Luc. Then again, isn't wood known for its ability to damp vibrations in structures? Wooden tripods made of beech are highly prized since they damp vibrations so well, and carbon fiber, even basalt fiber, are considered superb camera mounts because they damp vibrations much better than aluminum or steel tripods. I know this is your field, so I'm not saying you're wrong, just thinking through it for myself.

[mandroid]

Had Me thinking of some of those Logs brought up off the bottom of the Great lakes ..


little pieces being used to make Premium Violin Bridges ..

[mandroid]

Off topic(?) I read of a Carbon-Flax Composite fabric being used in making Bike frames
under the Musseuw brand, in Belgium,

to absorb the rough and cobbled ancient roads of the Spring classic Bike races ..

[Jim Garber]

At the risk of disappointing those of you who believe in it, I doubt that flax fiber can have a significant future in the manufacture of musical instruments, except to manufacture industrially (injection, blowing, compression, and Other automated processes ...) instruments which will certainly be financially accessible to a large number, but which are likely to disappoint users, both the acoustic properties of this material are totally incompatible with the musical field.

Jean-Luc: I am just curious if you read and made any sense of the paragraph describing the acoustic properties and acoustic design approach using their flax-fiber composite from the Blackbird site I quoted in my previous post.

All I know is that the one Clara uke I played was an excellent instrument. In fact the music store also had their CF tenor uke and IMHO there was no comparison. The ekoa smaller concert uke was louder and better sounding. In any case that it my subjective opinion based on a very small sampling. AFAIK Blackbird has their own method of creating this ekoa and their own design of their instruments, tho they are also now making a more standard tenor uke as well as a standard flattop guitar with the same material.

This video also explains what it is they were looking for in using this material. As usual, I have no financial interest in this company tho I like so far what I have seen and played:

[Arnt]

European spruce would be practically extinct as a "tonewood" if only old growth wood could be used. It's been harvested for centuries in most places, but luckily you can find usable pieces from logs that are much younger than seems to be the case with the American species, at least judging from the comments here. I've cut plenty guitar and mandolin tops from trees that were 100 years or younger, that both look nice (and traditional) and work great. So at least as far as top woods go, the reports of it's death have been greatly exaggerated, to borrow a quote... ;-)

[sunburst]

Arnt, are you speaking of younger trees that grew in old forests, or are there plantations (newer, managed forests) where usable trees are growing? If the former, I believe that would still be considered old growth, if the later that is good to hear!

[carbonpiou]

You have arguments in solid gold, Jim! (This is an expression used in France when a person uses examples that can not be contradicted)

The discussion launched on this forum is extremely interesting and very rich in observations and opinions. As I have already written several times, my respect for the opinion and idea of others is very strong.
Therefore, there is no question of trying to convince or persuade anyone. My experience in the field of composite technical parts is one thing. But the experience of the many manufacturers of American musical instruments in the field of the application of these materials in the world of music is another.
It is certain that I see this with an eye (and an ear!) very technically and theoretical. So before I even start, I'm influenced. And it's not necessarily a good thing.

In France, Italy and some other European countries, when I say that I make carbon musical instruments, they look at me with big astonished eyes (another French expression!).
In the United States (perhaps also elsewhere in the world?), It seems that the number of people or companies that use carbon to make musical instruments are very numerous, known and respected. In this area (and also in many others, moreover), there is really more than the Atlantic Ocean that separates us!

Moreover, our different cultures (yes, we must talk about it !!) influences very clearly our musical sensibility, and our affection for certain sounds.

Before continuing this discussion, I will do what you suggest, Jim: to go and see and listen ...
Certainly, I must have done it before!

[sebastiaan56]

A lot of the solutions proposed dont lend themselves to the hobby builder. As much as I dislike the idea it may be that homogenised products will be the easiest for the robots of the future to manufacture and our particular obsession will beome the stuff of documentaries and Pathos reels. That said there is still a lot of timber that can be recycled.

I know Peter Coombes made an interesting Mando with a Pinus Radiata top, that is certainly not old growth timber.

[CarlM]

The other consideration for sustainability is that the fiber based composites require some kind of resin, usually epoxy, which for now is based on petrochemical production. That may not be any more sustainable than logging off the old growth forests.

[Jim Garber]

Before continuing this discussion, I will do what you suggest, Jim: to go and see and listen ...
Certainly, I must have done it before!

Jean-Luc: I always try to keep an open mind for these things and respect others who do so. I do not own any carbon fiber musical instruments with the exception of my favorite violin bow but I always am interested in new and unusual uses of materials and designs when it comes to instruments. My main fiddles are from an American maker who, in 1915, made some that are rather eccentric from the usual, tho they are made of wood.

The difficult part, of course, is actually playing these odd instruments. I wonder how many of these Blackbird guitars or ukuleles ever make it over to France. Also I have noted that there were always experimenters in instrument design in France, notably Gélas and JTL and probably many more and many of these made some interesting mandolins as well as other stringed instruments.

[Jim Garber]

The other consideration for sustainability is that the fiber based composites require some kind of resin, usually epoxy, which for now is based on petrochemical production. That may not be any more sustainable than logging off the old growth forests.

I, too, am curious what the Blackbird guy calls "bio-resin" —I don't know what that would be but since their whole manufacturing process is proprietary, I don't know if they would actually tell us.

Possibly they use resins made by this company: Entropy Resins?

[CarlM]

Jim, I am not sure if your question about the Entropy Resins was rhetorical or not but there is a clip of that Blackbird Clara mandolin on the bottom of the page you linked to under the heading How our customers use Super Sap. You made a pretty good guess there. Do you have any lottery numbers?

That is interesting. I have thought that a lot more work needs to be done to head us away from oil based resins and plastics and toward plant based materials. I remember seeing a presentation by Quaker Oats in the 1960s on how some of their byproducts were being used to make plastics and glues, I think phenolics. But they had gotten away from that due to the oil based product being cheaper to produce.

[Jim Garber]

Jim, I am not sure if your question about the Entropy Resins was rhetorical or not but there is a clip of that Blackbird Clara mandolin on the bottom of the page you linked to under the heading How our customers use Super Sap. You made a pretty good guess there. Do you have any lottery numbers?

That is interesting. I have thought that a lot more work needs to be done to head us away from oil based resins and plastics and toward plant based materials. I remember seeing a presentation by Quaker Oats in the 1960s on how some of their byproducts were being used to make plastics and glues, I think phenolics. But they had gotten away from that due to the oil based product being cheaper to produce.

Hah! I just googled bio-resin and got that site multiple-times. I didn't scroll down to read the whole site. That was a good guess. I guess...

I would always think that oil-based, at least for the next few years, would be much cheaper. The Blackbird instruments are in the range of custom small-shop prices and most of the CF makers are in the same realm. I think the process is fairly involved, requires skills and oversight as well as some time in prototyping. I would imagine tho, that if we were talking about a large market for such things that a large investment in a state-of-the-art shop or factory would be in order. Unfortunately, I don't think even ukes and guitars would be in that category.