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Thread: Is there such a thing as a "Mandolin Culture?"

  1. #101
    Registered User Al Trujillo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there such a thing as a "Mandolin Culture?"

    Doc: I'm late to this discussion and I have not, nor will I read all the posts tonight. Intuitively I think of a 'culture' as being a group that thinks alike, and perhaps acts or dresses in similar fashion. Look no further than your local Harley-Davidson dealership for advanced studies! I own two HD 'Hogs' but I feel terribly uncomfortable dressing like a pirate, wearing the latest sleeveless t-shirt, etc. So I guess you can say that I am somewhat disabled because I like my bikes but I don't like the Borg-like mentality that may go along with owning one. Therefore, when it comes to my mandolin...I've yet to play with another mandolineer, I don't own a MC T-shirt or baseball cap (on sale today only by-the-way!). Same with fly fishing...I love my hobbies but I hate being pigeon-holed into a category, or 'culture'. I ride because I like it, I fly-fish because its easy to release them unharmed, and I play an mandolin because it keeps my mind busy. I certainly don't need the distraction of 'belonging' to a group to feel comfortable within my own skin. Thanks for the opportunity to post.

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  3. #102
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    Default Re: Is there such a thing as a "Mandolin Culture?"

    [/QUOTE]And finally, I'm still unsure how you design a study when you are a member of both studied groups. Part of the study will invariably reflect your own participation and belief systems.[/QUOTE]
    Yes on all counts, but there is also a growing body of research in community musical groups--I am part of that.
    Certainly bluegrass jams are way more common than classical orchestras, but they do exist around the country and even more so around the world--Japan and Europe. OMO is one, in Hillsboro/Portland, and there are several in California and Washington, and many many in other nations. I played with 150 mandolins from orchestras all over the world in Philadelphia two months ago. And there are gatherings of people who play through chamber music for strings (I cover the Mozart cello parts on my Gibson K2). It's a matter of how you define rare, I guess; not really important to my central question.
    You are right about the study design, but:
    All ethnographic, phenomenological, and many case studies are done by people active and/or immersed in the culture. Yes, it will invariably reflect my own belief systems. The claim that quantitative-positivist research DIDN'T do so is a myth. There are steps to take to be "as objective as possible" but you are never really. The questions you ask, the terms you choose, the sample you select, even the statistical analysis--that fact that you are doing a study reflects personal philosophical and epistemological groundings. Somebody raised this question way earlier in the thread, but as I said I am overwhelmed with the volume and range of replies: YOU are number 100!

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  5. #103
    Registered User mandowilli's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there such a thing as a "Mandolin Culture?"

    I have no idea what you people are talking about.
    willi

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  7. #104
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there such a thing as a "Mandolin Culture?"

    Quote Originally Posted by mandowilli View Post
    I have no idea what you people are talking about.
    Hmmm, yes, there seem to be more "cultures":
    - a culture of playing
    - a culture of talking about playing
    - a culture of talking about talking about playing
    - ....
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

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  9. #105
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    Default Re: Is there such a thing as a "Mandolin Culture?"

    I'm really pleased that someone is doing some research on mandolin culture. Perhaps I could draft a proposal for my side of the Atlantic too ...

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  11. #106
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    Default Re: Is there such a thing as a "Mandolin Culture?"

    To give this a slightly different spin, some of us also play CBOM instruments at least as much as the mandolin itself, and I do sometimes feel a certain kinship with players of the bouzouki, the Cretan laouto,, the oud, the Afghan rubab, the Cuban laud etc etc.

    What I'm getting at is that there are lots of instruments all over the world which are (in a sense) guitar-like, but in fact are probably closer to a variation of a mandolin or octave mandolin, especially when you consider the huge variety of different tunings people sometimes get into.
    Even in the Celtic world alone there are a bunch of bouzouki and guitar tunings.

    American guitarists and mandolinists such as David Lindley have long taken an interest in this kind of thing.
    I'd not go so far as to say there is much of a culture or community involved with this, but I think there is at least a sense of 'fellow travellers'.
    David A. Gordon

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  13. #107
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    Default Re: Is there such a thing as a "Mandolin Culture?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill McCall View Post
    Really? OBA lists about 15 monthly jams, plus innumerable private jams in Portland alone. Multiply that across 50 states and innumerable towns and cities. I'm unaware of classical jams, but I may just be a bit uninformed in that area.
    The poster was speaking specifically about classical mandolin orchestras in this case, so yeah, they're pretty rare! I know of one in Hadley, Mass., and one informal one that may be defunct in Connecticut. So they probably do average one per state at best. The appropriate contrast would be to compare that number with the number of informal but regularly meeting amateur classical string quartets. From baroque to modern composers, I bet there are about 30 of those in Connecticut alone, and my wife gets peppered with invites for more.

    I know of about 8 classical guitar ensembles scattered about, but I'm not sure of how active they are. At any rate, mandolin orchestras are now small enough in number they're basically a sub-set of anything.

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    Default Re: Is there such a thing as a "Mandolin Culture?"

    Quote Originally Posted by mandowilli View Post
    I have no idea what you people are talking about.
    That's OK, mandowilli. I am working with doctoral level music researchers, and we get caught up in jargon and lingo that has little to do with mandolin playing, but a lot to do with analyzing human behavior. It's stuff that is important to people who are interested in it, not to everyone. I don't talk about epistemology and phenomenology when I sit down to play, but I DO talk about these things when I supervise a student's doctoral dissertations. Sorry if I get carried away with research and philosophy in a site that is really designed for chat about the world's most perfect instrument. On the other hand, what I thought would be a short and obscure little post has got over a hundred replies. This clearly indicates a statistically significant propensity for critical thought with regard to the aesthetic, phenomenological, socio-semiotic, socio-cultural, epistemological, embodied-cognitive and writing skills of mandolin players. Who'd-a thunk??

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    Default Re: Is there such a thing as a "Mandolin Culture?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlieshafer View Post
    I know of about 8 classical guitar ensembles scattered about, but I'm not sure of how active they are. At any rate, mandolin orchestras are now small enough in number they're basically a sub-set of anything.
    Okay, Okay, I yield. Mandolin Orchestras are rare; I guess it was the "extremely" that I questioned. And after my experience at Valley Forge CMSA I was all like "Wow, mandolin orchestras are all over the place!!" So, as we say in my native New Jersey, fuggetaboutit.

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    Default Re: Is there such a thing as a "Mandolin Culture?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagger Gordon View Post
    To give this a slightly different spin, some of us also play CBOM instruments at least as much as the mandolin itself, and I do sometimes feel a certain kinship with players of the bouzouki, the Cretan laouto,, the oud, the Afghan rubab, the Cuban laud etc etc.

    What I'm getting at is that there are lots of instruments all over the world which are (in a sense) guitar-like, but in fact are probably closer to a variation of a mandolin or octave mandolin, especially when you consider the huge variety of different tunings people sometimes get into.
    Even in the Celtic world alone there are a bunch of bouzouki and guitar tunings.

    American guitarists and mandolinists such as David Lindley have long taken an interest in this kind of thing.
    I'd not go so far as to say there is much of a culture or community involved with this, but I think there is at least a sense of 'fellow travellers'.
    Good point--I play a Stuver F in m y bluegrass band, but a Gibson K2 mandocello in the orchestra; fiddle tunes on the Stiver, Bach and Mozart on the mandocello. Although recently I started working on Bach partitas on my Stiver.

  18. #111
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there such a thing as a "Mandolin Culture?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc James View Post
    Okay, Okay, I yield. Mandolin Orchestras are rare; I guess it was the "extremely" that I questioned. And after my experience at Valley Forge CMSA I was all like "Wow, mandolin orchestras are all over the place!!" So, as we say in my native New Jersey, fuggetaboutit.
    A case of "participant's bias" which has been alluded to in previous posts questioning your subjectivity. When you are part of a group participating in relatively rare or fringe activities, to have a meeting with 150 from around the world is a significant event, but bluegrass festivals, Star Trek conventions, vaping conventions have you beat hands down
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    Default Re: Is there such a thing as a "Mandolin Culture?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc James View Post
    That's OK, mandowilli. I am working with doctoral level music researchers, and we get caught up in jargon and lingo that has little to do with mandolin playing, but a lot to do with analyzing human behavior. It's stuff that is important to people who are interested in it, not to everyone.
    Speaking of academic studies, it would be fascinating to have an anthropologist's view of dominance hierarchies in a typical Irish trad pub session. Possibly someone familiar with primate behavior in the wild.
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  21. #113
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    Default Re: Is there such a thing as a "Mandolin Culture?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagger Gordon View Post
    To give this a slightly different spin, some of us also play CBOM instruments at least as much as the mandolin itself, and I do sometimes feel a certain kinship with players of the bouzouki, the Cretan laouto,, the oud, the Afghan rubab, the Cuban laud etc etc.
    I see a Venn Diagram coming up. Wait for it....
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  22. #114
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there such a thing as a "Mandolin Culture?"

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    Speaking of academic studies, it would be fascinating to have an anthropologist's view of dominance hierarchies in a typical Irish trad pub session. Possibly someone familiar with primate behavior in the wild.
    Don't even try to get me started...
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  23. #115
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    Default Re: Is there such a thing as a "Mandolin Culture?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc James View Post
    One serious question I need to ask first is this: Other than the common instrument, is there such a thing as the mandolin culture/community/society, or are there separate, unrelated social structures for bluegrass, classical, swing... and so on?
    Well, yes and no.

    First, the “no:“ It’s only coincidental that we play mandolins. Mandolin players as a whole are a very small group; so we tend to recognize other mandolin players as a unique kindred spirits. But that’s where the relationship probably ends. As a crude illustration, I owned a two-seater sports car in 1972; there weren’t many on the road, so invariably I would be acknowledged with a wave by other owners of the same make as we passed on the road. Trust me, as a long-haired hippie-type back then, I knew I had nothing in common with that sports car owners’ group other than a common make of car. More than likely, a classical mandolinist would have little in shared attitudes, practices, values, or goals (other than to be the best in their field) with, say, a jazz player, or a bluegrass player. A classical player may have high regard/respect for a player from another musical style; but it doesn’t mean that they would want to play in the same venues, explore the same musical history, or have the same social practices or conventions. Yes, there are some who successfully cross styles; but I’d say that they are few in number. Ordinarily, one has to immerse him/herself in a given style to be proficient in the nuances of that style.

    Now, the “yes:” If there is a culture among mandolin players, it’s the perceived identity one attains through his/her mandolin or collection of mandolins. The Lloyd Loar owners; the Ellis owners; the ‘insert name here’ owners. If there is one common thread, it is the identity one assumes by name dropping what one owns or is looking to own. Rather using generic 'mandolin’ or 'mandocello,' you mention specific brands. I do the same in my conversations. It’s a natural thing to do. It indicates pride of possession. So, if any, there is a Gibson culture, a Collings culture, a custom mandolin culture, a vintage mandolin culture, et al. That’s where you see a set of shared attitudes, values, and goals.

    Just my two-cents.
    Last edited by NursingDaBlues; Jan-06-2017 at 2:04pm. Reason: punctuation

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  25. #116
    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there such a thing as a "Mandolin Culture?"

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    Speaking of academic studies, it would be fascinating to have an anthropologist's view of dominance hierarchies in a typical Irish trad pub session. Possibly someone familiar with primate behavior in the wild.
    Ok, that's hysterical.

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    Default Re: Is there such a thing as a "Mandolin Culture?"

    I am late to this thread, but I play classical mandolin, and I also play in church, and for myself I play 60s-90s rock and roll while I sing (badly) with my instrument. The only mandolin "culture" I am a part of is the Café, there are no jams or anyone else I am aware of in this area.

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  28. #118
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    Default Re: Is there such a thing as a "Mandolin Culture?"

    With the Cafe ball cap, there is also such a thing as "mandolin couture."

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    Default Re: Is there such a thing as a "Mandolin Culture?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrus View Post
    With the Cafe ball cap, there is also such a thing as "mandolin couture."
    But it ain't very haute.

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    Default Re: Is there such a thing as a "Mandolin Culture?"

    Quote Originally Posted by LadysSolo View Post
    The only mandolin "culture" I am a part of is the Café, there are no jams or anyone else I am aware of in this area.
    Where are you located?
    Have you checked on Central Ohio Bluegrass Assoc, or CMSA (Classical)? I can't imagine there aren't some informal gatherings if you are looking for that. But nothing wrong with solo work!

  32. #121
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    Default Re: Is there such a thing as a "Mandolin Culture?"

    Even within the mandolin collecting subculture, there are different styles. Some play catch and release, and sell to buy. They eventually get to some really crazy nice mandolins, but I suspect they never stop looking. Think serial monogamy. Some try to amass one of every type of mandolin. A real collector type. Some try to fill up all the diverse needs of their different bands and gigs and need for spares and knockabouts. Some love a particular brand or model so much they just get more. Not a spare, really, more like a number one and another number one. Think devotion.

    Me, I just fall in love and have intermittent impulse control. I am not sure I have a collection. Its more of an assemblage.

    It is a mandolin subculture, in that we might kind of understand a guitar collector or a collector of euphoniums and lower brass, but we have more of an obsession with mandolins than with collecting.
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  34. #122
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    Default Re: Is there such a thing as a "Mandolin Culture?"

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    It is a mandolin subculture, in that we might kind of understand a guitar collector or a collector of euphoniums and lower brass, but we have more of an obsession with mandolins than with collecting.
    I can't afford that; sold my Vega cylinder back mandocello and Gibson A so I could get the K2 cello. I also bought a $175 Ibanez mandolin for International travel so I didn't have to worry about customs thinking I had illegal wood or ivory. Hardly a collector! But I do know a guy in the orchestra who owns 4 or 5 mandocellos; he plays mandola in the orchestra.

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    Default Re: Is there such a thing as a "Mandolin Culture?"

    Doc, I am a member of CMSA, and the nearest jam I am aware of is almost 2 hours away. Kind of not really practical as it is on a Wed night and I am still working.......I live in NE Ohio, 2 1/2 to 3 hours to Columbus depending on where in Columbus, and 4 1/2 to 5 hours to Dayton/Cincinnati depending on where in those cities also.

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  37. #124
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    Default Re: Is there such a thing as a "Mandolin Culture?"

    Quote Originally Posted by LadysSolo View Post
    Doc, I am a member of CMSA, and the nearest jam I am aware of is almost 2 hours away. Kind of not really practical as it is on a Wed night and I am still working.......I live in NE Ohio, 2 1/2 to 3 hours to Columbus depending on where in Columbus, and 4 1/2 to 5 hours to Dayton/Cincinnati depending on where in those cities also.
    That's sad. But...
    If there are just 3 or 4 other people anywhere near you...or check at a local music store? Post a little note? I see craigslist community posts for people interested; I met my band's great fiddle player that way. Sometimes a local coffee shop or pub will host an open jam--maybe you can start one. Hope to see you at CMSA in Milwaukee!

  38. #125

    Default Re: Is there such a thing as a "Mandolin Culture?"

    Doc
    I think that is very interesting question. As a music lover and life long student of the mandolin , I find that I can separate mandolin crowd ( like many stringed instrument players) into different but related camps. One camp are the "instrument junkies, who's obsession with collecting their instruments often exceeds their abilities. Another camp are the "jaundraphytes" who obsess with one or two classifications of music styles and beat each other up over the "preservation" of those styles like specimens in a bottle. There are the" Jammers", who will accompany, fake, step on or noodle a tune with anybody anytime anywhere and after a bad night in the "pickers parking lot" swear never to return...until next week their dependency distorts there better judgment and return for another round (or 10). And finally...".musicians" who are...not perfect but practice, tune before playing, listen to others around them, know what they can (and more importantly cannot do) on their instrument and are more concerned about how it all sounds to the ears!

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