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Thread: Serial Numbers, FON's and other stuff about Gibson discussion

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    Formerly F5JOURNL Darryl Wolfe's Avatar
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    Default Serial Numbers, FON's and other stuff about Gibson discussion

    I think it best to continue our discussion here. My apologies to the OP of the other thread

    Here is the text from that thread, and here is a link back to it

    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...-(-)-questions



    I could not copy it all, so here is just the last few




    Today,#10:37am
    #34
    Darryl Wolfe
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    Re: 1924 A2Z (?) questions

    Originally Posted by Henry Eagle
    But still, I maintain that Joe's FON list is correct even for 1923, and that the above mentioned FONs 11919, 11971, 11985 are, indeed, from 1923. And especially that assumption would explain a lot. When Harry Ferris joined Gibson by Oct. 2nd 1923, we know that one of the first measures he took was putting a halt to overproduction. .
    I'm sorry Henry, but I cannot agree. Yes, I agree that they changed in late '23 as far as their philosophy.

    But I do not agree with Mr.Spanns list of FON's He clearly states 1917-1923 FON's as 11000 to 12000. But, he says it is from visual examination of instruments. He states no firm source other than opinion (of which I am simply stating mine)

    The problem that flies in the face of his info is Catalog price lists and their issue date and Catalog listings for certain instruments. Now, we know it takes time to add and instrument to a catalog and publish a new one. But price lists were published fairly often and reflected new instruments.

    If, we were to believe Spanns FON information at face value, then all Loars were made In 1923, including '22's and 24's (which obviously have signature labels in them) Now, I realize they could have been signed and serialized at any time. But, the information presented by Spann implies that A2z's were all made in '23, and dont't even show up on a price list until '24 nor a catalog until '25. The same goes for the obscure style 5's such as L, H and K which show up far later than their respective FON's

    Spanns range of FON's covers 7 years for 11000 - 12000. For creativity let's extrapolate that over his time period. Let's assume 1917-1923 was fairly stable in production. That would be 1425 FON's a year. That would mean 1923 started off the year at 10575 and that truss rods did not show up until late '23, years after the patent. It would also mean that the mando-viola 70321, and FON 11721 is a '23 creation...later '23 at that. Now, Spanns serial number listing conveniently more or less agrees with common understanding during this period, and would date the mando-viola and all signed 22 Loars, dated '22 as '22 models.But by late 23, 24 and 25, his serial number list seems to derails a bit

    How can that be if his FON list says the were built in at least mid to late '23. My extrapolation cannot be 60% off. Again, study the price lists that have actual dates on them

    I have in my possession a purchase coupon/receipt for A style mandolin number 77762. It is dated the day after Christmas 1924. This is a 1 1/2 years before Mr. Spann indicates that serial number is issued. The date on the coupon fully is in line with conventional thinking on dates during the Loar period. And It fully supports the December 1, 1924 signature date for Loars and their respective 11985 FONs and 798xx serials. Now, just think, when was that purchased mandolin built. Being a higher sales model, probably not too long before purchase. But if we wish to argue that it could have been in the store for a long time...then this pushes things even further from what Mr. Spann is saying


    There is one crack in the fence of my stand here. I do believe that it is possible that it took much longer to complete these batches of instruments than we think. We all know that the FON originated off of a consecutively number pad of paper that probably had multiple carbon copies

    Someone decides that they need 24 A2z's. The FON at this point exists and is attached to what will become reality before it even makes it out onto the factory floor. We do not know the backlog, we do not know how long it takes to make them, and we do not know if varnished F5's have to hang for 4 months after they a brush finished. So it is very conceivable that the FON's did indeed originate in '23 that we are arguing over. But these situations are not factored into stated "construction" dates.

    I much prefer to look at it from a finished instrument stand point and what FON is attached
    Last edited by Darryl Wolfe; Today at 11:37am.
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    Timbofood
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    Re: 1924 A2Z (?) questions
    This is the kind of information I do so enjoy about this site! You guys have made such an in depth and "ONGOING" study of the information. The generosity, knowledge and, the civility with which it is shared is heartwarming. The humor isn't bad either!
    Strong work, people!
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    Henry Eagle
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    Re: 1924 A2Z (?) questions
    (It's sometimes late at night when I post, and I get confused.) Well, what I meant was, they drilled for the tuners, when the mando shipped. But in the case of #79719, they put a newer (later '20s worm over) set of tuners on an older ('24) Loar.

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    Last edited by Darryl Wolfe; Jan-30-2017 at 12:24pm. Reason: add
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    Formerly F5JOURNL Darryl Wolfe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Serial Numbers, FON's and other stuff about Gibson discussion

    Here is my last post in the previous thread

    I'm sorry Henry, but I cannot agree. Yes, I agree that they changed in late '23 as far as their philosophy.

    But I do not agree with Mr.Spanns list of FON's He clearly states 1917-1923 FON's as 11000 to 12000. But, he says it is from visual examination of instruments. He states no firm source other than opinion (of which I am simply stating mine)

    The problem that flies in the face of his info is Catalog price lists and their issue date and Catalog listings for certain instruments. Now, we know it takes time to add and instrument to a catalog and publish a new one. But price lists were published fairly often and reflected new instruments.

    If, we were to believe Spanns FON information at face value, then all Loars were made In 1923, including '22's and 24's (which obviously have signature labels in them) Now, I realize they could have been signed and serialized at any time. But, the information presented by Spann implies that A2z's were all made in '23, and dont't even show up on a price list until '24 nor a catalog until '25. The same goes for the obscure style 5's such as L, H and K which show up far later than their respective FON's

    Spanns range of FON's covers 7 years for 11000 - 12000. For creativity let's extrapolate that over his time period. Let's assume 1917-1923 was fairly stable in production. That would be 1425 FON's a year. That would mean 1923 started off the year at 10575 and that truss rods did not show up until late '23, years after the patent. It would also mean that the mando-viola 70321, and FON 11721 is a '23 creation...later '23 at that. Now, Spanns serial number listing conveniently more or less agrees with common understanding during this period, and would date the mando-viola and all signed 22 Loars, dated '22 as '22 models.But by late 23, 24 and 25, his serial number list seems to derails a bit

    How can that be if his FON list says the were built in at least mid to late '23. My extrapolation cannot be 60% off. Again, study the price lists that have actual dates on them

    I have in my possession a purchase coupon/receipt for A style mandolin number 77762. It is dated the day after Christmas 1924. This is a 1 1/2 years before Mr. Spann indicates that serial number is issued. The date on the coupon fully is in line with conventional thinking on dates during the Loar period. And It fully supports the December 1, 1924 signature date for Loars and their respective 11985 FONs and 798xx serials. Now, just think, when was that purchased mandolin built. Being a higher sales model, probably not too long before purchase. But if we wish to argue that it could have been in the store for a long time...then this pushes things even further from what Mr. Spann is saying


    There is one crack in the fence of my stand here. I do believe that it is possible that it took much longer to complete these batches of instruments than we think. We all know that the FON originated off of a consecutively number pad of paper that probably had multiple carbon copies

    Someone decides that they need 24 A2z's. The FON at this point exists and is attached to what will become reality before it even makes it out onto the factory floor. We do not know the backlog, we do not know how long it takes to make them, and we do not know if varnished F5's have to hang for 4 months after they a brush finished. So it is very conceivable that the FON's did indeed originate in '23 that we are arguing over. But these situations are not factored into stated "construction" dates.

    I much prefer to look at it from a finished instrument stand point and what FON is attached
    Last edited by Darryl Wolfe; Today at 11:37am.
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    Formerly F5JOURNL Darryl Wolfe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Serial Numbers, FON's and other stuff about Gibson discussion

    I would also like to take one moment to make it clear that I am not bashing Mr. Spann work. His book is a superb contribution to the entire subject and opens up many new avenues of thought and provides data unheard of until it's date of publishing. I commend him immensely

    If one takes the whole of Spanns work, and then thoroughly reads Walter Carters older "Gibson" work regarding Gibson's finances, you can really understand the changes going on at Gibson in 1924

    Spann notes how many were laid off...this is especially pertinent to what happened then and how things changed.

    My only disagreement with Joe is some of the raw data and how he applies it. The data is still data. We have discussed this and there is no problem.

    Nobody knows certain things for sure, and some of it is fuzzier than others....that's the point of this thread
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    Registered User Hendrik Ahrend's Avatar
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    Default Re: Serial Numbers, FON's and other stuff about Gibson discussion

    I fully agree with your latter post, Darryl. Please allow for commenting on your remarks. I just want to make sure I understand everything correctly.

    Joe's list clearly puts the known '22-signed Loars (#71069, Mando-Viola, #71634) correctly into 1922.
    The A2Zs could have easily been made in 1923. (BTW Joe also writes that the FONs referred to the same type, but not necessarily to the same model.)
    The A2zs do show up in both Cat. N (1923) and O (1924).
    The obscure LL Master Models (Style 5 L, H, K) all show up in Cat. O (1924), the year they were made. Their FONs we don't know, except for the H5, which are from 1924. And their markings are pretty similar to the Fern F5s (Fern inlay, white binding).

    I'm not sure, if I get your calculation properly. From looking both at the Mandolin Archive and Joe's list, all I see is that a truss rod appears on a style A mandolin ser. #68549 and on an F2 #689xx/FON 11618. Both indicate 1922 according to Joe's list, no surprise.

    As to your style A mandolin #77762, Joe lists ser.# 77350 as the first number in 1925. Apparently his list is a bit off here, but not much, I'd say. And it indicates that the serial number is, indeed, tied to the date of shipping.
    But it certainly does not disprove that most of the 1924 F5s may have already been half done in 1923. Above that it puts logic to the fact that the Fern Loars are so different and the later post-Loar Ferns are again very different from most Loar F5s, but still closer in detail to the Fern Loars.

    On other thought: A4 #74848 was shipped in 1923. And it has a 1923 FON: 11948. This FON is quite close to FON 11965, of which you won't believe it to be from 1923. Are both Joe's FON and the serial number list non-reliable?
    Last edited by Hendrik Ahrend; Jan-30-2017 at 6:48pm.

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    Formerly F5JOURNL Darryl Wolfe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Serial Numbers, FON's and other stuff about Gibson discussion

    Actually Henry, there is so much going on here that it is hard to make sense of any of it.

    Let's assume Joe is correct. It could be plausible then that they had dump truck loads of stuff started in '23 and simply finished most of '24's production up from those things. That could fit the re-org/change of methodology part. It would also fit the layoff part too.

    I simply have a hard time integrating signed Loar mandolins with FON 11965 dated Feb 24 and FON 11985 dated Dec 24 into the1923 FON equation. Especially when the serial number are properly spaced and sequential among other know examples of the batches with identical appointments

    Let me think some on it

    Also, the truss rod patent was applied for in April 1921..around the same time as the adjustable bridge
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    Registered User Hendrik Ahrend's Avatar
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    Default Re: Serial Numbers, FON's and other stuff about Gibson discussion

    Thanks Darryl, for your kind answer, which is really all I could expect. I certainly agree that there could be major flaws in Joe's lists. On the other hand, there is a good chance that those FONs (11965, 11985) are, indeed, from 1923.
    The whole story is still exciting for me, and I hope more evidence will surface. Evidence is the truth that theory must mimic.

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    Formerly F5JOURNL Darryl Wolfe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Serial Numbers, FON's and other stuff about Gibson discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry Eagle View Post
    On other thought: A4 #74848 was shipped in 1923. And it has a 1923 FON: 11948. This FON is quite close to FON 11965, of which you won't believe it to be from 1923. Are both Joe's FON and the serial number list non-reliable?
    Let's examine this. I agree with all of what you posted there about 74848

    December 23 Loars have similar serial numbers, consecutively, but we do not know the FON

    February 24 Loar have properly spaced ahead serial numbers and FON's...like 75317 and FON 11965...I would be an idiot not to believe the FON was issued in '23, but the serial aligns with the signature date to me

    But, lets take December 1, 1924 Loars...they are consecutive serial numbers and the FON is 11985 and serial are about 79835 which I think is representative of how many serial numbers per year were being assigned. If '23's are 71000 to 75000, then '24 should be 75000 to guess what 80000 when the Loar label disappeared. So, I guess they started taking the label out in 1927 according to his math

    Joe wants me to believe that all of these identical Dec 24 Loars had serials assigned somewhere in 1926. That also implies they were all shipped the same day and some how all had penciled in serials under the labels and somehow still have old style silver plated tuners

    Lets move ahead to the unsigned Loars...all FON 11985 with various mostly one-off serials or pairs of consecutive numbers up into the 82xxx serials. These I can believe were serials assigned at shipping. But the majority have differences in details from Loars of Dec 24..lacquer finish, gold hardware etc, but are distinctly 11985 construction
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    Formerly F5JOURNL Darryl Wolfe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Serial Numbers, FON's and other stuff about Gibson discussion

    I am going to do a gigantic about face turn on this.

    If one does a bit of math and extrapolation, most all of Joes data up until the start of 1924 could be true. If you go ahead and add numerous months to the FON number, you can come out with a rhyme and reason that makes some sense

    This is all predicated on it taking much longer to go from "need to build" to finished product. When you add in some minor fudge factors on Joes dates and roll it all up, we simply just come up with a slightly different picture of things

    The only thing I disagree with is some of the 1924 serial numbering toward the end of that year and into 25 and 26

    1924 seems to represent a year of few FONs...which I believe we agree on

    Without presenting too much data to digest, it appears that the issued roughly 250 FON's per year from 1917 to 1923

    Regardless of what year we think the FON is, if we jump forward about 6 months we have an instrument and a serial number that aligns roughly with what year we think the instrument was completed


    Let's take my '23 A2 73922 FON 11865....fully believed to be a July 1923 instrument based on my July 9 1923 Loar serial number 73922

    Add 100 or so FON's, we get late 23 for the 119xx FON's

    Case and point Feb Loar FON 11965 Serial 75325 Close enough

    Lets take my A2z 11919..serial unknown, but of the known late 24 serial 77687 batch or early '25 according to Joe

    Serials and FON's are all lining up if you presume they did not make stuff in a month or so

    So, all I really disagree with is serials assigned randomly at shipping in the Loar period and prior
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    Registered User Hendrik Ahrend's Avatar
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    Default Re: Serial Numbers, FON's and other stuff about Gibson discussion

    I see your point, which makes a lot of sense.
    I just looked at A4 ser. #80636. Here Joe's lists makes all sense. The ser. # suggests it was sold in 1926 and made in 1925 according to the FON 8096. Why doesn't F5 #80782 (shipped in 1926; with FON 11985 from 1923 according to Joe's list) have an FON way closer to the above mentioned A4? My answer would be that FON 11985 means 1923.
    Joe obviously stumbled over all this also, and his suggestion that Loar-signed F5s were an exception and had their serial numbers reserved in advance makes some sense, since - at least for warranty issues - there was no need for a "real" serial number, when there was a dated label.
    Last edited by Hendrik Ahrend; Jan-31-2017 at 3:25pm.

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    Formerly F5JOURNL Darryl Wolfe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Serial Numbers, FON's and other stuff about Gibson discussion

    Well, I still maintain that something changed in their methodology an that serials MAY have been routinely assigned to instruments during the final stages of build in the years prior to all of this late '23, '24 and '25 confusion.

    I can picture a fairly large inventory of instruments that did not sell for 2-3 years. Let's take those F5's with 11985. Some are dead Loar era finishes with serials just after the signed ones. BUT, as we slide into '25 and '26, it appears that some had no finish on them and were later completed and then assigned serials as Joe suggests

    I have one fact that I have been holding back. The late Henry Garris' infamous "Red Loar" was ordered by Eugene Claycomb in 1926 and received in 1926. I have seen the paperwork That mandolin is 769xx and signed on March 31, 1924. So that pretty much assures us that they had stock for 2 years minimum. It also "implies" that the so called unsigned Loars with different finishes and 80xxx or 81xxx or 82xxx serial were complete much later, dressed in different parts often, but still bore 11985 FON's, but could look nearly identical to a mandolin with a four digit 8xxx FON Makes some sense
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    Formerly F5JOURNL Darryl Wolfe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Serial Numbers, FON's and other stuff about Gibson discussion

    Here's another theory/scenario we must consider Maybe Joe is full 1200% correct with the serial number assigned at shipping...even is say '21 and '22.

    I still maintain that the serial was assigned essentially at the end of the build...BECAUSE..maybe in these years they we shipping virtually anything they completed to music stores, artist and direct sales on where they had low rent semi consignment basises. I'm talking about $15 down and $2 a month for 2 or 3 years. And music stores where they would stock 15 mandolins, but had not paid for them possibly (or fully)

    I would be easy to theorize that this new GM at the end of '23 stopped alot of this. Leading to a finish as sold philosophy, use what we have, quit issuing so many FON's for make work

    I'm even willing to bet he killed the A5 at the same time. If not, why did they go to the trouble and expense to make a brass headplate template for the bound A5 snakehead. And, why do we see a plethora of curly maple backs installed on some batches of A2z's and a few A4's. And why do numerous low end banjo mandolins sport silver plated pearl button Waverly arrow end tuners?

    Remember, it is right in this time that the A3 was dropped, the A2 dropped and the A2z replaced both

    It all makes one think
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    Registered User Gary Hedrick's Avatar
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    Default Re: Serial Numbers, FON's and other stuff about Gibson discussion

    Hmmmm now that makes BUSINESS sense to me.

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