Splicing in binding?

[Bluetickhound]

Binding the back on my A5 project and I goofed up the binding heading into the button. I haven't scrPed it down or otherwise bothered it since I attached it earlier today. Before I make a mistake even worse, can I just cut the binding about a half inch back or so with a chisel tip X-acto knife and splice in another piece? I use binding glop (scrap celluloid dissolved in acetone, for those unfamiliar with it) and I think I can do a good enough job that it will be hard to notice but like I said... It's ugly enough now. I'd hate to make it worse. I suppose Incould take it all off and start over but if I can save what I've got I'd rather do that.

[mirwa]

You can cut the binding and splice in another section, but it really is not an easy thing to do, looks simple, but even for those of us that repair / build daily, its a tough job to get a clean look to

Steve

[Marty Jacobson]

No

Fixed that for you. :-)

[Tavy]

+1 on not easy to do, but I would say yes you can do it.... however, you would want to do it one piece of lamination at a time, carefully remove the outer 2 laminations back so they're staggered in "steps" and then put the patches in one piece at a time. Hope that makes sense.

[Bluetickhound]

I guess the smart play is to remove the whole strip and be more careful next time!

[fscotte]

Yes remove it. Binding errors standout more than anything, and they are easily resolved if the builder cares enough about the fit and finish.

That is a tough miter because you don't really know the final length of the binding so you can't precut it accurately. I like to glue all the way around leaving the last 2 inches or so, make the angled cut a little long, and then use a small file to slowly sand away binding until it fits.

[HoGo]

Viloin makers do it all the time with wooden purfling, often intentionally so the joints at the corners are easier to fit they use center bout purfling in two separate pieces.
I would consider doing the splice opposite way than typical binding miter I'd taper the binding from top to ribs (carefully) at 40 or so degrees abnle and match new pre-bent piece for invisible fit. Shouldn't be much work.
BUT if this is your first instrument you'd better just go on and do cesmetic repairs to miters with celluloid mud and/or tiny pieces of binding. There is chance that after spending few days trying to improve the job you'll end up with even worse mess.
Reworking of the whole binding is another possiblity (been there).

[Bluetickhound]

It's actually my 5th (but only the 2nd that will, barring disaster, go to completion...) instrument and it won't be for sale (I actually wrote a note on the underside of the top to the effect of this being an early instrument, never intended for future sale). I still care enough about my workmanship that poorly done binding is not something I can let slide with a clear conscience. I'm going to remove the strip and re-do it.

[fscotte]

Forgot to mention there is one little trick you can do, is to pull off enough binding, maybe 6 inches, then heat that with a heat gun while pulling from the end. You can gain another 1/2" without any noticeable effects. I've done it.

[Timbofood]

If you don't take it off and make it "right" you will not be happy, sorry but, I've been in the same kind of boat and the mental anguish will hang over your head for a ridiculously long time! It's a "Sword of Damocles" thing, even if no one else notices, YOU will know.

[Bluetickhound]

If you don't take it off and make it "right" you will not be happy, sorry but, I've been in the same kind of boat and the mental anguish will hang over your head for a ridiculously long time! It's a "Sword of Damocles" thing, even if no one else notices, YOU will know.

And that is exactly why, as soon as I got home from work, got the heat gun and removed the binding. Done deal.

[Timbofood]

You will be happier with the end product, wise move.

[amowry]

Yep, smart choice. If you splice the binding there's a good chance that it will pull apart years later as the binding shrinks. I've also stretched binding in a pinch, but there's also a tendency for it to shrink back to its original length over the years.

[Bluetickhound]

It really showed me the wisdom of using binding "glop" also... I feel pretty sure had I used Duco or some other adhesive, removing the binding would have been a much dicier proposition. Heating the glop softened it up quickly and the residue scraped of easily. The fact that it had been on only about 24 hours helped, I'm sure but I'm a believer in the glop.

[Timbofood]

The real point you learned (I would think) is when you see the problem, act quickly and carefully or rectify the situation. Don't wait three weeks to "moan" about it, you knew it was going to be bothersome and you did the smart thing!
I know there are some boat folks around this site who have read Howard Chappelle's book "Boatbuilding" where he advises when setting up shop:
"One must have a comfortable chair in which most aspects of the construction may be visible. This will allow the builder a suitable place to "Moan" about line and fairness of the craft."
Or something pretty close to that.
I have many moaning chairs in many locations. They should not be too comfortable or yu can just sit and indulge in the moaning and not finish anything!

[Bluetickhound]

Ha! My "shop" is a corner of a two car garage.... I gotta go out in the driveway to do my moaning!!

I learned many years ago at my day job about the price of letting anything less than your best work get out the door... Once it's on the delivery truck it's gone and your reputation goes with it...

[Clinton Johnson]

Well bluetick, it looks like my meticulous level isn't quite up to yours yet lol. Oh well it doesn't look like I'll be charging 4 grand+ on this one either. And here I thought #7 would be lucky better luck next time(maybe) ...you guys are great craftsmen, perhaps I'll get there someday.

[fscotte]

Clinton, one thing I started doing was making the button binding before shaping the button. Then shape the button around the binding. So youre using the preshaped binding as a template. I also do this for the miter at the peghead top, cutting the miter first, gluing it together, then form it to the veneer.

I did my first f-hole binding on my current build, and preshaped the binding and it turned out as good as I ever imagined. My lack of skill doesn't allow me to bend binding to wood, so I kinda bend the wood to the binding if that makes sense.

[Clinton Johnson]

I'm trying to grasp that in my mind fscotte, so let me get this straight, you form the binding for the button and then like draw that shape to the wood using the binding as a template? So you don't cut channel in the button area first?

[Bluetickhound]

lol! I will be charging exactly $0.00 for my work for the time being. One of these days I'll get good enough to be comfortable selling my instruments but until then I have a room with 4 other instruments in various levels of disarray... This one (#5) is actually looking pretty good but I had to shim the dovetail a bit too much to ever let it get away from me. I'd be mortified to see it again a few years down the road with some poor guy saying something like "it looks OK on the outside and sounds decent enough but I sent it in for repairs and LOOK at that neck joint!!! YIKES!"...

Fortunately, James Condino has shown me the way to dovetail proficiency... I just have to make the jig and spend some time using it. Once I can consistently produce acceptable neck joints I will start to think about putting instruments up for sale..

[fscotte]

Yes, and I sorta do this for any areas that require intricate work. The button is one of those areas that stand out like a sore thumb if done improperly. It has to be the right size and shape, even, centered, and pointing in the right direction, and have a smooth transition in the neck. So for me, I can shape a perfectly shaped binding the exact size I want. Then sand the neck and shape the plate button to fit the button.

I've even thought about binding the plate completey before gluing it to the back, like I do with the peghead. Its possible, very possible, and the seam would be flawless.

Someday I'll build a pin router to do all this for me

[Bluetickhound]

I have used a hybrid of that idea... I have a "button blank" that I use to shape the binding for the button, trace the inside to the actual back plate and then carve to that line. In his article in American Luthierie Andrew Mowry put me on to those dockyard chisels and they are wonderful. Used in conjunction with X-Acto knives you can really do a fine job if you're careful and take way more time than you think you ought to be taking... Once I figured out that "slow is smooth, and smooth is fast" my binding channels improved markedly.

[Clinton Johnson]

Well that makes sense fscotte, I think I'll try that technique on the next one. And I've learned on this one that I won't be using white boltaron anymore. It seems that celluloid works better for me.

Bluetick, at least you can do dovetail, I wouldn't dare touch that animal. Started to once and found out real quick that I couldn't do it! Maybe I'll try again someday with better setup instead of trying freehand. For now I'll stick with slotted and pinned V-joint.

#7 in the white

[dschonbrun]

Some very nice aesthetics there. Glad to see commitment to learning the craft. Look forward to hearing how it sounds once you're done.