Re: Boomer Bust?
And another young'n here. Wow, so much to be said. I certainly would love to get my hands on a pre-war Martin. I just can't afford one.
I like having a small number of very nice things, for which I save and plan. I'm not even comfortable with having too many instruments. I have great appreciation for vintage instruments and true antiques (looking for a Gibson snakehead at the moment, actually). Some "antiques," though, are just old stuff, and I am trying to live a life without clutter.
Amanda
-2007 Duff F5
-2001 Stiver F5
-Blueridge BR-40T Tenor Guitar
-1923 Bacon Style-C Tenor Banjo
Re: Boomer Bust?
I still have a few things from my grandparents and even my great grandparents, but I have pretty much decided I already have too much and need to get rid of many of the family heirlooms that I am keeping purely for sentimental reasons. I have also told my parents that I really don't want any more. I mean, some of their stuff I would love to have, but I have no need and it would mean having to make room for it. I am slowly parting with my personal things. I have even been piecing out some of my personal instruments. I have a Les Paul from my teens, that has tons of memories, including my first gigs, but it is just sitting in the case, next to my other nice instruments that are not getting used. What sits out and actually gets played? Cheap imports.
Being Gen-X, here is what is currently important to me...
#1
Desktop Computer
Laptop
Iphone
iPad
Apple Watch
These things are used more than anything else I own. I don't have an emotional connection with them, but they serve me well, help me earn a living and give me some freedom to run a lifestyle business.
#2
Video equipment, Camera, basic Audio gear.... I have been doing a ton of video projects ....some travel blogging, cooking shows, etc... I find this very fulfilling.
#3 Bicycle
#4
Here is the tie between all sorts of other things... lots of outdoor gear....
#5
Basic musical instruments. Nothing special.. Even though I have some really nice personal instruments, the truth is, they are not that important to me anymore. I just want something that plays great and sounds acceptable. Past that, I don't really care.
As much as I love cars and motorcycles, at this point of my life, they are just transportation and not important to me.
I don't want a large house anymore... I just end up filling it with stuff I don't want/need.
I do want a camper van/small motorhome though.
This is all coming from someone that had their first guitar at age 4, obsessed over instruments for much of my life, spends most of my waking hours working on, talking about or studying instruments, pursued music related careers, took music in college and has thought about pursuing building. Yet in the end, I am perfectly happy with a nice sub $500 instrument, because for me, they are good enough and I would rather spend my money on other things, like a camper van!
Robert Fear
http://www.folkmusician.com
"Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don't.
" - Pete Seeger
Re: Boomer Bust?
A little over generalization is needed to make the point, but yeah, I think there is a lot of truth in what the OP said. Sure plenty of exceptions but I think that is the general trend. But things go in cycles and the next generation behind that may reel the vintage craze back in a bit, but who knows. Some stuff may simply become obsolete. These days people grow up in a disposable world where windows 95 goes to 98 --iphone 6 goes to 7 --everything quickly becomes obsolete and unusable and no one wants to get too attached to anything because it may not work next year or they will come out with something way better.
They say the millennials will be the first generation in over a century that will have a lower standard of living than their parents.
But I think also that the world market may make up for some of the US decline in appetite -- at least for the higher end US vintage instruments. I think Asia in particular goes nuts for some of this stuff and are willing to pay it in certain markets. How ironic is that ? We buy their cheap knock offs, their disposable income grows, they buy our heirlooms. Its a weird world.
No matter where I go, there I am...Unless I'm running a little late.
Re: Boomer Bust?
Posted an article recently called "The Butchering of the Age of Reason - Thanks to science, law, education, and freedom of the press, citizens in the U.S. live in an age of wonder relative to the rest of human history. Now, they want to throw that all out." In it, the author questioned why musicians and scientists reach different conclusions when comparing the tonal qualities of modern and ancient instruments. The most compelling reason given for preferring old instruments to new was a so-called "survivability" factor. Could it be that those of us who prefer "olde-worlde" do so because we're (a) hopeless romantics, who (b) think we're going to endure in equal measure and similar manner ... while our young-un's aren't ... and don't.
I have a 9-year-old "F" style mandolin, made in China. According to the people who made it, it's "... an accurate replica of an original 1920’s F5-style model." It's a beautiful sounding instrument, well made from a classic design. Strictly in musical terms, would a genuine 1920’s F5-style mandolin of similar design and craftsmanship be any better?
Re: Boomer Bust?
I'm 46 and have played mandolin for about 20 years. I have had many, but I don't exactly collect them. I'm a 1 in, 1 out kind of person. I don't have the kind of money that would allow me to buy an extravagantly costly instrument, or car, or house, or anything, so I don't. I don't actually collect anything particularly, anyhow. I have a fairly spartan house and if something breaks, I replace it, or if I want something better, the old one is sold or donated. I just don't really understand the idea of holding on to stuff that I don't use. The same goes with antiques or family heirlooms or art for that matter. My folks have a decent collection of valuable art and furniture and what not. I'm glad that they enjoy it, but I really don't want any of it. I'm not relying on them to provide for me anymore, nor have I for about 20 years. I have a decent business that provides for my financial needs, and those of my family. I hope my folks (in their 70s) live a long and happy life and get enjoyment from the things the have and do. I also hope that they use what money they have earned and saved, for themselves. I'm not expecting an inheritance of money or things, nor do I really want one. Quite frankly, if furniture or art or whatever does come my way from them one day, I will likely sell it and donate the proceeds to a charity that they favored.
Regarding expensive old instruments, I don't know anyone my age who can afford to buy a $20,000 mandolin or guitar, much less a $150,000 one. I'm quite happy with the lower cost and recent instruments that my son and I play. And if they aren't getting played, we trade them for something that will.
Re: Boomer Bust?
The boomer generation destroyed this country. They were handed the greatest opportunities and economies in history and they sold the entire country to China for 50 cents a share more. They took simple utilitarian instruments produced en masse in factories and turned them into a tulip war and now that they are all in shock that their greed has left them with unaffordable insurance and insurmountable health issues, they are flooding the market with anything they can unload and pi$$ed that prices are reflective of what they left the world. Melinnials that are making a small fraction of what their parents did combined with debtor's prison for their education and real estate prices that are 20 times what their parents dealt with at the same age. There is not enough money to survive, not to mention crazy prices for non essentials.
I've owned some of the most collectible instruments in the world. As a high school kid I could mow lawns for six weeks and buy anything from the 40s or 50s. They were old, they were funky, the necks were crap along with the setup and the electronics, but they had something and real players bought them. Now the same instrument cost six years wage and the neck is worse, the body is more trashed and the only people that play them are a bunch of crusty old geezers. That is not a formula for keeping the tradition going; no 25 year old wants to model their image after some crusty old geezer or their instrument. Prices are so out of touch that the huge trend I am seeing is that not only can younger folks not afford these overpriced items, but they don't even desire them or want to associate with them. Solid players with basic equipment like Jack White rule over blowhards like Joe Bonamassa with his 1% guitar collection; he may be a nice guy and a solid player, but his constant vintage guitar bragging is offensive. All of you guys who sold your camaro and bought a Loar, I salute you and celebrate your good fortune, but you also created the tulip war; now you have to live with the repercussions....
If you think prices are low now, just wait a while and see how much they crash.
It is not a complicated formula:
no jobs, no food, no shelter, no diapers= no $250,000 old mandolin!
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My father was born in 1921. His was on his own before he turned 16 during the Great Depression. He never could understand why anybody that could afford good quality new furnishings would want someones old cast-offs. Buying antiques was a puzzlement to him. So was wallpaper. Wallpaper is what the cheap houses had to cover the shiplap walls. The nice homes had plaster.
My point is that I think it is somewhat generational.
Bill Snyder
Re: Boomer Bust?
You're talking about real things, crafted from nature by the hands of human beings and blessed by the love of the player. Something to be valued and nurtured, respected and loved in the hope of bringing life both to it and to themselves musically and spiritually.
What would this world of instant gratification and soulless greed that surrounds us today have to do with any of that?
But Amsterdam was always good for grieving
And London never fails to leave me blue
And Paris never was my kinda town
So I walked around with the Ft. Worth Blues
Re: Boomer Bust?
As a Gen-Xer who owns a small collection of guitar rarities and has played a few but will never own a Loar mandolin, I agree that there's room for generational debate but a screed like this is potentially counter-productive and unlikely to survive the more genteel editorial bent of this forum. A more nuanced commentary might be allowed to reach a wider audience, but I've been wrong before and gladly so.Originally Posted by grandcanyonminstrel
That being said, make sure you are able to own your side of the argument. Looks like the incomparable and multi-talented Mr. White appreciates the rarer side of things: http://www.myrareguitars.com/jack-wh...tar-collection.
C.
Northfield F5S Amber #347 - 'Squeeze'
Mann EM-5 Hollow Body - Gimme Moore
Kentucky KM-270 - Not just for whisky
Flatiron 1N Pancake - Not just for breakfast
Epiphone Mandobird IV - Djangly
Cozart 8-string e-mando - El Ch(e)apo
Lanikai LB6-S Banjolele (tuned GDAE) - Plinky and the Brane
Re: Boomer Bust?
Grandcayonminstrel. I'm glad you have got it all figured out and it's all the fault of the previous generation, none of your fault. Hope you survive and have a good life.
Re: Boomer Bust?
Aside from all that, I'm wondering if the younger generation is simply tired of looking at too much junk. It's true that antique dealers here in New England are disappearing rapidly. It's also true the younger players absolutely value tone and workmanship, but for the most part, they seem not to have this overwhelming desire to have the latest and greatest. I've sat with younger musicians who for hours will talk about the tonal qualities of mandolins, fiddles, whatever, and then explain why they like what they have (usually much less expensive than what folks on this forum seem to regard as necessary) over anything they've tried. For many of them, a $5000 mandolin is as much as they'll ever want, a $10,000 fiddle might as well be a Strad. Do they make a decent living? Yes, it's just not a priority.
Look at the young musician's view of career-building. "Back Then" a rising musician would hope to hook on to a group fronted by a Bill Monroe or whomever, stick for a number of years to build a name, then try to go on their own. Now, I work with a large number of musicians trying to put gigs together, yet they change musical partners too rapidly to try to plan ahead. Even the best of the best might have one trio they tour with 2 months out of the year, a couple of thrown-together duo projects for a week or two, a couple of side gigs, another trio or quartet that takes up a couple of months, and then go traveling for a 3-4 week period, where they join up with European friends for a quick foreign tour. With that sort of lifestyle, owning stuff doesn't work.
There's nothing political going on, it's just a different lifestyle. Why? Who knows. Maybe they've just watched us for decades work so we can afford something we don't really need. We buy a big house so we can enjoy the fun of mowing the lawn, painting, cleaning, paying taxes, blah, blah, blah. We argue over the merits of needing a $20,000 mandolin, while they're off playing a $2000 mandolin at a festival somewhere and having the time of their lives.
Don't get me wrong, I make my living restoring old houses, ones that are between 250-300 years old. Even then, the younger generation is looking for a cleaner, less cluttered interior with open spaces, and everything nice and light.
It seems every generation rejects what the previous generation did, and this is no different. It happens regardless of economic conditions. Every generation has it's new architectural heroes, it's new musical heroes, it's own authors, it's own problems. 200 years ago, old folks in New England were worrying that with all the good farm land taken, all the best and brightest would leave town, head west for new opportunities, and only the "dullards and less industry inclined" would remain, as they were too lazy to seek new opportunities.
There's nothing revolutionary here, happens every generation. I'm sort of glad it is, things were getting way too "precious" and everything was being judged by it's label or price tag.
Re: Boomer Bust?
I think, as others have mentioned somewhere too, that right now we *are* in a new Golden Age of instruments.
Nowadays, as far as instrument choices, it seems like the best of both worlds:
- Affordability -- good quality low-priced stuff that plays well
and looks decent. Thanks to the wonders of CNC, I guess. The workmanship of a bottom-of-the-barrel new $50 Rogue is far better
(so far off it was visible to the naked eye), there was some really terrible quality-control in the old days in the *cheap* end of the market.
- Luxury -- for those who are so inclined and have the $ to proceed with, they can choose the other end of the price scale and buy handmade 'boutique' (a term I keep seeing here on this forum so I guess it's ok to use that term) instruments if, for some reason, they feel they wouldn't be satisfied with a lower-cost factory instrument. I would *guess* that there are probably lots more choices of high-end new instrument makers now, than in any previous decade. (As to whether or not the boutique market is saturated yet, compared to vintage Gibsons and whatnot, I don't know.)
Economics is a moving target though, nothing ever stays the same.
Other than that, I'm not going to comment one way or the other... I'm tryin' to stay out of the cross-hairs of the mods (hi, mods).
Last edited by Jess L.; Mar-29-2017 at 6:41am. Reason: Typos.
Re: Boomer Bust?
I'm a tail-end boomer born in 1963. While the tone of grandcanyonminstrel's post was a tad harsh, I think he/she is correct. Our generation has really screwed up the world by being too greedy and materialistic, as well as by spoiling our children and grandchildren to the point that they won't take accountability for their own actions (any more than we want to take responsibility for ours).
As to the OP's post, I think he sees the trend accurately. Our kids don't want our stuff. However, THEIR kids will probably want our stuff as opposed to their parents' stuff.
It ain't gotta be perfect, as long as it's perfect enough!
Re: Boomer Bust?
Ah, the good old days . . .
"The paths of experimentation twist and turn through mountains of miscalculations, and often lose themselves in error and darkness!"
--Leslie Daniel, "The Brain That Wouldn't Die."
Some tunes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCa1...SV2qtug/videos
Re: Boomer Bust?
Am i mistaken that you were offering those gorgeous, $400 allessi tuners?
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I agree.
Too little money for many, too many decent low priced instruments.
Who can or would buy a long lasting higher quality anything over a lower priced item when income and space are tight, or, they are likely to move. Ie the swedish pressboard do-it -yourself furniture option?
But , importantly, what one generation thought was valuable, another doesn't.
Its like the guy with a chevy monza that thinks its really cool and rare. Others dont.
What was a feel good, like a name guitar or car, isnt to others.
I like old things, of quality. The tudor house, with grounds, and an attic full of relics.
Others like micro houses.
Aint no right or wrong. I am delighted, btw, to see some cultural movement.
The world doesnt stand still. Cheap labor isn't a new concept. Indeed there is a yin and yang to economic changes.
I dont expect my child to be my clone.
Our parents and grand parents went through it too. Nothing really changes, except , the climate and resources.
And......i do think with the passage of years can change perspectives. I used to love danish modern.......many folks grow, with time, appreciations can change.
Re: Boomer Bust?
Or as good old Walt said, "he who learns best under my style learns to destroy the teacher." I think Ralph Waldo said somethin' similar. The bluegrass police, on the other hand.I dont expect my child to be my clone.
Well, that might just be another way of saying *everything* changes.Our parents and grand parents went through it too. Nothing really changes, except , the climate and resources.
Anyway, as a 40-something, with a comfortable income, though certainly not extravagant (I'm a government man -- ain't nobody gettin' rich working for the govt.), I'm all about portability, low-maintenance, and not being encumbered. I'm also all about making that which you've got, work. So if I get something old that still works well, great -- repurpose it! But I ain't gonna' fetishize -- or hoard -- a bunch of old stuff, just for the thrill of it.
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I'm 37, which I believe puts me at the end of Gen X. My wife and I both work a lot of hours (collectively around 100/week between us) for what we have. Our house is adequately sized for our family (4 children plus her half-sister). We thought we wanted a good sized yard, but have come to believe we'd be happier with less maintenance. We both drive modest vehicles. Her 2010 Grand Caravan can haul the entire family plus a week's worth of camping gear to the Grand Canyon and back, and my 2013 Hyundai Elantra gets incredible gas mileage and is kind of fun to drive.
My house is filled with a lot of clutter, much of which is musical instruments. I'd love to have more, but I could also get rid of half and still be happy. She has a great deal of family heirlooms and sentimental items, and as she and her sisters get older, her mom has been passing on more and more of them. A grandfather clock, loads of jewelry, an old table, those sorts of things. My heirlooms consist of my dad's electric guitar equipment that he "perma-loans" me. An old Fender amplifier, two Gibson guitars from the 50's and 60's... They mean a lot to me and I wouldn't part with them for anything.
The instruments I play on a daily basis are an Eastman MD315 and a 70's Iida masterclone banjo. I'd love to have more prestigious instruments, but they both keep me happy. I have a lot of electric guitars, but I could get rid of most of them (save for dad's Gibsons) and I wouldn't cry too hard. I would like a second mandolin and banjo so I could more easily try out different strings and setups, but if not, I'll survive.
My point is that while I like stuff, I don't need (or want) extravagant things. Music makes me happy, so I'm unhappy if I can't listen to or play it regularly. High end stuff would be fun, but my iPhone and Eastman are enough.
Soliver arm rested and Tone-Garded Northfield Model M with D’Addario NB 11.5-41, picked with a Wegen Bluegrass 1.4
Re: Boomer Bust?
Economics was mentioned. In 1966 my folks bought me my first electric guitar and amp, a "student" package that the local guitar shop was selling new for $150. Fast forward 51 years and you CAN STILL buy a new student electric guitar and amp package for $150 or less at any of the major retailers. And probably a better guitar, too! A quick lookup on the online inflation calculator shows that $150 in 1966 dollars should now be worth $1127 in 2017 dollars, so something is going on with fair trade and labor laws that are beyond the scope of this forum. My way of saying there is something "wrong with the world" but I haven't got a clue how to "fix" it! $150 was probably half of my father's monthy income in 1966, I'm guessing. For comparison, I do remember our rent was $75 a month for years back then before my folks bought our house.
Jack White and Chris Thile on PHC made me think of their similar, yet different approaches to music, as well as their different choices instrument-wise, and being from the same generation and both at the top of their game. We know Thile's Loar, Jack White is often pictured with modern reissue type instruments, as well as the cheapo funky vintage instruments he became known for.....which ain't so cheap anymore, thanks to him! Of course, we only see what he is pictured with on stage. For all I know White may have a warehouse full of Loars, he certainly can afford them! But suffice it to say, vintage and expensive doesn't necessarily appeal to everyone, even if they can afford it.
Re: Boomer Bust?
I appreciate everybody’s comments. While I may not agree or relate with each one, I do appreciate the additional perspectives.
My original post was due in part to a personal quandary mixed with frustration. As background, a number of years ago my wife and I started a half-kidding, half-serious scenario that we called “Last One Standing.” The premise was which instruments would go to the nursing home with us if each of us could only take one. My wife is a much better musician than me and has a very nice collection of acoustics. Combined with my collection, well, we’ve got fairly decent collection of instruments – both new and vintage with some that are presumably “highly collectible.” The “Last One Standing” has since become an actual theme in our lives: what will we do with our instruments and when will we do it? Neither of us has purchased an instrument in terms of an investment for high monetary return; our return is the joy and pleasure of playing them. The quandary arose when we were trying to decide the appropriate course to take when the time came to divest of the instruments.
My wife and I are planners. We knew that our heirs did not want any of our “stuff.” So the biggest reason for our estate planning was to not saddle our heirs with the burden of what to do with the estate when it’s our time to go. Our estate planning was relatively easy: a few years ago we sat with an attorney and a financial planner and established the mechanism that determined how and how much to distribute to our heirs and various charities. We also established an executor to oversee and handle divesting the estate. (Estate is such a pompous word; I wouldn’t consider what little we have as an estate, but such as it is it’s still considered an estate.) Our instruments, though, are a problem. We’re not ready to get rid of them yet; give us another twenty years or so and then we’ll talk. You see, when we did our wills and estate plan, our instruments fell under one of two options: to either donate the instruments to a non-profit music school that we support to auction, sell, or do with as they saw fit; or the executor would sell them off and donate the money to the non-profit. Just a few years ago, both scenarios offered the non-profit a decent gift and the director of the non-profit was in agreement with either plan. However, today’s prognosis for acoustic instruments isn’t as strong as it was when we made our plan. After consulting with a few folks with some knowledge of the industry, we came away with a really cloudy crystal ball.
Currently, while the vintage acoustic market isn’t as robust as it once was, there continues to be demand. Selling simply takes a while; and while the return isn’t as great as it was, say, ten years ago, it’s still decent. The future market though…well, the people we consulted with varied from a continued downward trend in monetary values and then stabilizing in a few years to flat values. Nobody predicted a bounce back. Nobody wanted to hazard a guess fifteen- to twenty-years in the future. So, divesting of the instruments now looks to be a better benefit to the non-profit. But we continue to enjoy them so we really don’t want to sell now. It’s our personal decision and we’ll make it with a lot of thought and, hopefully, reliable guidance.
I know that instruments are only as valuable as what someone is willing to pay for them. I just wish I knew what somebody is willing to pay in twenty years.
Last edited by NursingDaBlues; Mar-29-2017 at 11:00am.
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Wow, you are a planner.
No matter where I go, there I am...Unless I'm running a little late.
Re: Boomer Bust?
Wow! I though for a minute that I was on the Mandolin Cafe.
willi
Re: Boomer Bust?
NursingDaBlues, I definitely hear what you're saying. My six dozen instruments will go to local dealers with whom I've done business for years, Dave Stutzman and John Bernunzio, on consignment or by outright sale at wholesale price, after my two kids have picked out whatever they may want.
I never gave a fig about the market prices of the instruments I acquired; I valued them as tools to make music, interesting and well-crafted objects that I admired for their beauty, and in whose history I was interested. If they sold for half of what I paid for them, or twice what I paid for them, I didn't care.
What the used/vintage market for them will be ten years from now, when I'll be past 80 (if I make it) and most of them will be going out the door, means very little to me. The buyers at that point may be eager, or indifferent. Those instruments, IMHO, have an inherent value -- but the reason I own them, is their value to me. That may sound self-centered, but as with any valued personal possession, the market or "investment" value is only a fraction of the subjective value we place on it.
I wish that millennials, or whatever we call 'em, loved old instruments as much as I have. Some of them do, I'm sure. But wouldn't it be a bit silly and unrealistic, to think that they "ought" to, for some reason? My generation loved cars; I can remember back in the '50's hearing pre-teen boys arguing intensely over Ford vs. Chevy, and I can still recognize car makes from that era on sight, tell the difference between a '56 and a '59 by their body styles. Nowadays, as so many uninterested people say, "They all look alike to me," and if pre-teens are arguing over Toyota vs. Subaru, I'm not aware of it.
So I separate myself from the rant in Post #31. We aren't "destroyed" just because some other arbitrarily-defined "generation" (who assigns these labels, anyway?) has a different set of values from the ones we have. I'm aged enough to remember when critics said the main problem was "gray flannel suit" conformity, only to find a few years later that the main problem was hippie-druggie irresponsibility, or subversive revolutionary radicalism, or neoconservative yuppie materialism, or slacker indolence and indifference. Now its i-Phones and video games, gender uncertainty, or, alternatively, Trump-ism.
Seems it's always something...
Allen Hopkins
Gibsn: '54 F5 3pt F2 A-N Custm K1 m'cello
Natl Triolian Dobro mando
Victoria b-back Merrill alumnm b-back
H-O mandolinetto
Stradolin Vega banjolin
Sobell'dola Washburn b-back'dola
Eastmn: 615'dola 805 m'cello
Flatiron 3K OM
Re: Boomer Bust?
I thank everyone for their posts. Truly and wonderfully most informative.
I actually think, there isn't that much of a generational gap in actual substantive values.
its just....we all have our own mental baggage.....oh yeah, some of us have real baggage too.LOL
.....had the bell bottoms, and the grey flannel, settled on music and scotch and hiking.
I do recognize the branding/corporate backlash. (I don't get the love of hightops......jes sayin....LOL)
I too buy stuff with no hope of recovery or appreciation. And, not extravagant, but, that's releative. one man's Eastman is another man's Ellis........
OTOH.....LOL.......so long as were talking instrument doom
I STILL think, theres one BIG OLD Guitar company, now in Memphis, which steadily has price increases, and which I have pretty much felt, with the march of time, even if only every three years, guarantees my old used les pauls wont be selling for less than the new ones, ever, provided someone still wants an antiquated design but, pretty, solid body.
But, its 'purt likely' , there will be no need for amplifiers as we once knew them, and the only feedback will be .....on the 'net, making solid bodys......as relevant as chamber pots.
speaking of which, I can well recall when a Fender Jag and Jazzmaster, and Silvertones, Kay, etc were almost unsaleable....about when Hendrix hit.....my ......how history repeats......sorta.
I mean, were all family and we all have two lips.........
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