Self taught practice

[rodarbal]

Hello all, Just your thoughts on how you practice. I am self teaching and find my hour a day doing random stuff with little structure. Do some do scales for a bit then work on a song or just whatever to keep it interesting? Sometimes I feel I am not progressing, can't really afford formal lessons but want to get better and maybe have the confidence to join in with others someday. I do practice most days sometimes less, sometimes more than an hour. Thanks for any suggestions.

[billkilpatrick]

There's something to be said for just noodling along - enjoying your mandolin, getting comfortable with it, come what may - and knuckling down to serious lessons after. There's a lot of material available here in the "Learn/Listen" section of the main page. The FFcp exercises were an absolute revelation to me ...

[mee]

Sometimes I feel I am not progressing, can't really afford formal lessons but want to get better and maybe have the confidence to join in with others someday. I do practice most days sometimes less, sometimes more than an hour. Thanks for any suggestions.

I found that jumping in and joining others not only boosted my confidence but gave me the insight of what I need to practice on. I always start with scales repeatedly, sometimes 30 min or more and then working in melody from what ever song pops in my head. This limbers my arthritic fingers. Then I find some songs I like on youtube and start playing along. Sometimes I throw in a video lesson, I have a membership with an online teacher that I sometimes use but just playing along and watching the videos seems to give me a better ear. My problem is that once I pick up my mando, 30 min can turn into several hours. I don't get any work done. Thank goodness for my supportive hubby who would rather see me practicing than doing anything else and my boss(me) that allows me to make my own schedule.

[spufman]

The ffcp book is great and really was a revelation for me. I'd also highly recommend playing along with the stereo, whether it's music you know or just a random radio station. It's really satisfying to me and your ears and improvisational skills will benefit.

[Drew Egerton]

I am mostly "self-taught" but I took the approach of getting a lot of DVDs, tab books etc.
There's tons of free tabs online at various sites. It'll keep your attention a lot more to work on actual songs that you like and progress through being able to play them than just doing scales all the time. Both is good!

[Mark Gunter]

In a sense, everyone who plays is "self learnt", because no teacher can do the learning for you, he/she can teach only in the sense of showing you how to play, showing you how to learn and how to progress, and guiding your course of study. It is up to the student of an instrument to assimilate what he is shown and to develop good practice habits. So, it can be a big help to have a one-on-one formal teaching arrangement, but it is not necessary if you are a really motivated student, and especially not in this day when so many learning resources abound.

The biggest challenge for the self-learner is designing a course of study for himself. I think the key there is to draw a good distinction in your mind between studying (or practicing) and playing. If you can do that, just take some time to think about what you need to be studying. It shouldn't be too tough to pick one or a few things that you know you need to focus on.

The simplest example is the self taught person who is focused on learning specific songs. Understand that practicing the song and playing the song are different animals. So, when practicing alone, use a metronome, focus on making and playing chords properly, focus on sounding out notes properly, keeping rhythm properly, sounding musical. Evaluate every little thing you're doing, and practice, practice, practice. Think about your technique as much as possible and learn to practice correctly. When playing the song (as opposed to practicing), whether you're alone, in a jam or performing somewhere, the opposite applies. Don't evaluate too much or think too much about what you're doing. Playing is the time to really relax, have fun and just play what you know at that point. The less you have to think about technique, the better it will play. Find your zone, your groove, feel the song and just play it.

Lately I've gotten a lot of tips from the Grass Talk Radio podcast that Brad Laird has recently launched, if you have a moment, check out an episode or two here: http://grasstalkradio.com

[Beanzy]

What kind of setting do you want to play in? Solo, mixed ensemble, orchestral etc.
So who do you want to be when you head out the door to play music, where will you be happy going?
Once you know that you can then decide which genres might suit that for you.

Once you know the genre, then you can begin to pull together a plan and put the building blocks in place, giving you a structure which tou can put target goals into. Then you can source ideas for what best helps you to get on top of those goals.

[Mark Wilson]

There is no substitute for someone watching you and offering trained advice on what you need to do to progress more effectively. You don't have to take more than one or two lessons at a time for that.

There is some great material out there on 'how to practice better' (instead of what to practice) I recommend finding 'the practice of practice' if you can

New tunes, learning the fretboard, finding as many chords as you can - all good stuff, but I'm with Drew on working on songs. Each new tune in some new key is a chance to learn chords, scales and the like

I like to sit down with a simple goal each time I practice. A thought of one simple thing I can improve that would make playing more enjoyable. Might take 5 minutes or 30 minutes.

Sometimes I'll play thru tunes I know, waiting to hit those little places where I 'tend' to stumble or feel anxious as it approaches. I take those small phrases and work them slowly until they become my favorite part of the tune

Make a list of things you would like to know or do better and use that to sit down with a focus on one simple thing you want to improve.

I find if I sit down without any plan I wander around. I think a fair amount of that is perfectly fine as long as you return to sitting down with specific purpose next time

I'm in my 4th year so no way an expert. I'm sure there are many things I could be doing that I haven't thought about. One reason a seasoned instructor is worth the $$

[Mark Miller]

Mark G's and Mark W's advice is really helpful IMO. Different practice routines work better for different people, and I can't follow exactly the same one every time without getting bored, but in general a good structure for me is:

1. Warm-up for at least 10 minutes. Play at a slow, relaxed, comfortable speed. Play both rhythm (chords) and lead (melodies). Play things you already know and are comfortable with so you don't tense up and don't have to start and stop all the time. Scales can be good here, as can fiddle tunes, as can songs where you can strum or chop along as you sing and then maybe play a lead break at some point. It can be tempting to skip the warmup if you don't have a lot of time that day or are especially eager to jump into something you're learning, but in my experience practice is almost always frustrating if I do this, because I'm not physically prepared to play well.

2. Work on something that needs some technical focus and a high level of concentration. What I mean by that is, for example, when I know a tune and can play most of it pretty well except for a problem area, or when I know a solo or a fiddle tune and am trying to bring it up to speed (or a faster speed than I currently can). This is where the metronome is so useful. Put the tune or problem spot way slow, like 60 bpm, and concentrate on getting the timing just right, on making it smooth rather than staccato, on any left or right hand techniques that tend to fall apart at faster speeds. This is how you build muscle memory that will carry over at faster speeds. Beyond the really slow speed, people have different ideas, but in my experience it helps to take two different approaches (usually on different days): 1) gradually notch up the speed, making sure it's clean and smooth at every step, and the first time it gets too fast to do that, slow it back down a notch and work it a bunch, then bump it back up and work it a bunch. Progress here can be very incremental and can take a while, but it happens. 2) once you have it under control up to a somewhat faster speed, notch it up at larger increments, i.e. play it slow, then medium, then fast (however that is defined for you). At some point, in order to get it fast, you have to play fast. Your brain and hands work differently at faster tempos. Don't overdo this, don't play fast and sloppy all the time, but do let yourself give it a go at a quicker tempo, and just try to stay relaxed and don't worry when you miss a bunch of notes. It can be helpful to try it fast, then go back to 60 and be really precise and clean, then go back to fast.

3. Play a few things you know. Relax and have fun.

4. Close out by working on something you're still learning. Learn the A part of a new fiddle tune. Hum the melody of a song you know well and try to pick it out by ear in a simple way. Try to break down the solo of someone whose playing you like. Don't try for perfection, just for learning a little something.

This is more or less what I do, or try to get myself to do, at least when I have my most productive and enjoyable practices.

[Mark Miller]

Also, Mike Marshall made publicly available somewhere a set of practice templates in pdf format that I'd be happy to send you if you pm me your email address.

[Mark Gunter]

There is no substitute for someone watching you and offering trained advice on what you need to do to progress more effectively. You don't have to take more than one or two lessons at a time for that.

A whole book could be written on "How To Learn To Play As A Self Taught Musician", and in my previous post I only touched on one of the simplest approaches, the person who simply wants to learn songs. There are a whole bunch of other approaches, for instance, the person who wants to learn improvisation, etc. But Mark Wilson emphasized an important aspect of the learning process, FEEDBACK.

Feedback is really the best part of having a teacher. When you have a teacher who is talented at playing, talented at designing a course of study for you and is there to watch you and give you feedback or constructive criticism, then you have a good teacher. If you can't find a good teacher, there are online substitutes for this, as we all know. But what if you're not in a position financially to take advantage of any of these options? You are self taught by necessity because you simply can't afford a local teacher, or a subscription to a web service?

Actually, I'm in that position myself. I'm no longer earning the big bucks of my most productive years. Here's suggestions for you that have worked for me.

First, as Mark Wilson has intimated, you can probably afford to pay for at least a single lesson occasionally if there is a local teacher who is any good. In two years, I've had two lessons from a good local teacher, and each time the half hour I spent with him was fruitful.

Second, be your own critic. If you don't know how to do it, learn to do it: Record yourself often. Make videos. Evaluate yourself and think what you need to work on to improve. Join the newbies group and submit videos on the newbies tune of the month.

Third, there is a wealth of help and knowledge here in the cafe. Make friends with some of the members here you respect or admire. You can contact members by private message and ask them to review one of your videos and offer feedback. Most of the people here would be happy to do this for a fellow musician if they have time. Obviously, you don't want to abuse something like this, but it is an option you might explore from time to time.

Getting honest feedback from another set of eyes and ears is important for a self-taught musician.

Finding others to play with is just as important, but remember that playing and practicing need to be two different things. When you play with others, you need to just play. You can learn from people you play with too, but it is best to get feedback from others besides your playing buddies and work on learning in private. Play in public, learn in private. Have fun with all of it.

[Amanda Gregg]

I'd like to add further emphasis to Mark Wilson's point 3: to advance, it helps to have a goal. I have gotten a lot out of working up a piece of music that is just a hair above my current capabilities. You can develop your own exercises to help you play the piece's difficult passages. Having a concrete piece of music can be a better motivator than just getting better to accomplish...what?

Oh, and all those other suggestions on this thread? They're all correct, too. Nobody ever said it was going to be easy. But wouldn't it be terrible to "done?"

[Bill McCall]

I'm at the far end of structured practice, but I follow the recommendation above. Broadly, some warmup, technical exercises like tremolo and arpeggios, a new tune, old tunes and improvisation. But I make a spreadsheet of each of those items, and some others, and have times/targets for each. Having the chart means I have consistent daily goals. It really helps. I got that from Evan Marshall, following a comment from one of his peers 'there's a reason Evan plays like that'.

But seeing a teacher, even once a month is a big help, as it can help you how to practice.

[farmerjones]

Ditto on the outside feedback. You can't throw yourself a curveball. Sure, recording yourself is good. Sure, trying to play along with the radio is good. But a jam or a play date can set up your curriculum, and point out weaknesses quickly. One doesn't get good to play with others. One plays with others to get good. Example: I knew ten fiddle tunes prior to my first jam. Of those tunes only five overlapped with the group. Did I waste my time learning the other five tunes? Not completely, but I wrote down the titles of the rest of the jam tunes. Giving me a pathway. P.S. don't forget to write down the key. While it's a good exercise to be able to transpose and play a tune in several keys, that can be a secondary goal.

[sblock]

Ditto on the outside feedback. You can't throw yourself a curveball. Sure, recording yourself is good. Sure, trying to play along with the radio is good. But a jam or a play date can set up your curriculum, and point out weaknesses quickly. One doesn't get good to play with others. One plays with others to get good. Example: I knew ten fiddle tunes prior to my first jam. Of those tunes only five overlapped with the group. Did I waste my time learning the other five tunes? Not completely, but I wrote down the titles of the rest of the jam tunes. Giving me a pathway. P.S. don't forget to write down the key. While it's a good exercise to be able to transpose and play a tune in several keys, that can be a secondary goal.

+1! One doesn't get good to play with others. One plays with others to get good. True true true.

[JeffD]

Warning against too much structure:

I went through this years ago. I set up for myself, from the best advice, a practice regime that included exercises, new tunes, old tunes, chord work, right hand work, all in timed segments. It became a task list. And while I have average discipline and got to it about as often as I prescribed for myself, I noticed myself looking at the clock, and treading water to get through the prescription.

If you can get behind your instrument for an hour a day every day, you are wayyyyy ahead of a whole lot of folks, what ever you spend that hour doing. So lets start there.

60% of the perfect practice, doable cheerfully 100% of time (say once a week weekdays), is MUCH better than the 100% practice, hatefully done 20% of the time (once a week). Any practice that you can consistently look forward to is better than a regime you just go through the motions to get it over with.

I have been getting into method books recently, vintage and modern, four especially, and a collection of exercises put together by a friend that I really like. I enjoy doing them, I enjoy what they are doing for me.

So I keep them open on the music stand, along with what ever tune book I am working through, and a list of the old time or contra dance fiddle tunes or classical pieces I am working on. And I sit down about every day, do my standard warm ups, and smash my way through all of the stuff in front of me as best I can. I go about 30 minutes, get a cup of coffee, and then go about 20 more minutes, and then I mess around for fun for a while. Sometimes the last segment goes a long while.

I only have only a few "rules": to get behind a mandolin every day, to make some kind of progress or at least work on something hard every day, and to stop as soon as I catch myself just going through the motions, day dreaming, watching the clock, or worrying about work.

[Tobin]

Warning against too much structure:

I went through this years ago. I set up for myself, from the best advice, a practice regime that included exercises, new tunes, old tunes, chord work, right hand work, all in timed segments. It became a task list. And while I have average discipline and got to it about as often as I prescribed for myself, I noticed myself looking at the clock, and treading water to get through the prescription.

Once again, Jeff has eloquently stated what I was thinking. I started out that way too. I bought books, CDs, DVDs, and tried to go through regimented study methods. It was boring, and made playing the mandolin feel like work. It wasn't because what I was doing was boring, but because I was using someone else's structure. So I tried making my own practice regimen, and like Jeff, I had it written down on a piece of paper for my daily practice routie, all in timed segments. That sucked nearly as bad as following someone else's directions.

Finally, I realized that I was learning a heck of a lot more by playing what I enjoyed: fiddle tunes. There are thousands of them, and they incorporate nearly every technique, trick, finger maneuver, and pick complexity you could think of. So I decided I was just going to play tunes and learn as I went. Now I'm not going to say I'm any kind of master mandolin player, but my improvement was much greater when I was enjoying playing music. Stopping to do drills as part of a tune that I'm trying to get up to speed is much more enjoyable (and thus helpful) than doing drills for drills' sake.

And like Jeff mentioned, simply getting behind your instrument every day is the most important thing. The only way to motivate yourself to play every day - and enjoy it - is to stop thinking of it as "practice" and think of it as "playing". For me, that meant learning tunes and their variations. Find whatever works for you, in terms of getting you motivated. If you don't find yourself daydreaming about playing the mandolin while you're at work, or eating supper, or snuggling with your significant other, then you're not properly motivated.

[guidoStow]

I have found Mike Marshall's Mandolin Fundamentals DVDs very helpful in jump starting my playing. I found his focus on doing the basic stuff right was great to get me on the way to creating the right playing habits...

[Ivan Kelsall]

I've self taught myself how to play 3 instruments - banjo / guitar & mandolin. For me,the whole reason behind playing,is to play music,so that's what i did. I listened to a tune(s) dozens of times to get it into my head & then set about 'copying' what i heard.
I've always found that having to search for the 'sounds' (forget they're 'named notes' for a while - that comes on it's own) helps me learn where they are for the next time. When you find where to get the 'sound' that you want,memorise the note at that string / fret. Eventually,you'll be able to name 'em all. Playing & learning by ear has great advantages as well. You develop what i call a 'quick ear' = you become able to pick up on the melody line of a tune you've never heard before pretty quickly & that's essential for jamming & playing with others generally. Also,not every tune that you'll want to play will be TABBED out - new tunes/songs from new recordings for instance. Learning to play by ear really IS necessary for some things, & it should be part of anyone's learning IMHO. Once i got the key that a tune was played in,i just worked on it. I use recorded music every day to pick along to,in every key in Bluegrass music.

Formal training in the form of excercises can be thrown into the mix if you want. I have played scales,mostly for the fun of it,but i never found my lack of 'scalar knowledge' was an obstacle to my learning & playing.

Mostly we learn our own way,& for me,that's how it should be with a bit of help along the way if required. Sometimes trying to learn the way other folk do things, simply doesn't sit right with us,so teach yourself in a manner that makes sense to you,'cos if it doesn't you'll spend a lot of time on the starting blocks,
Ivan

[yankees1]

Just make sure you are practicing correctly as it is more difficult and frustrating to unlearn a bad habit and than relearn the correct way. Band in the Box is a great tool to practice with also.

[JonZ]

Since your question is general, the answer must be too. You need to deliberately practice skills that will move you toward your musical goal. You may or may not be able to recognize which skills you need to practice and how to best practice them. If you find you cannot do it on you own, you need a teacher.

Some teachers are better than others. Look for a teacher who has demonstrated the ability to successfully guide students toward musical goals similar to yours. Does he or she have a lot of students who sound like you want to sound?

[CarlM]

I had a very good instructor for several years till he moved away. It was some of the best time and money I ever spent. Now I am back to the same mode as you with the same issues of how to be productive. A few thoughts here on some of the issues.

First is what to work on. I have found David Grier's advice most helpful there: "What do you suck at? That is what you should practice."

Getting outside yourself to get a good sense of what issues are there is one difficulty of working alone. As others have suggested, getting to play with others will focus on where some of your deficiencies are, speed ,tone ,timing, volume, back up technique, etc. Record yourself regularly and listen to it. Record yourself and try to play along. If there are timing issues that will point some of them out. Playing by myself it is easy to believe I have a piece down cold then when I try to play it with someone it falls apart. Playing against a backing track can help there.

Practice backup. Playing alone it is easy to let the backup playing slide yet that is where we spend most of our time.

Everything takes longer than I think it should. It is easy to bite off more than I can really accomplish in this bottomless endeavor.

Having a structure is good because otherwise you just wander aimlessly noodling with no forward progress but the structure should not be too rigid because it is an exploration and the side trails often lead to great places. Also if it is too rigid you may move on before you have something mastered. For myself I have some general goals along with particular songs I want to learn. I divide up my time between these things but pay close attention to whether the things I am working on are progressing or whether they need to be set aside for a while then come back to.

[Ivan Kelsall]

" What do you suck at ? '' - If i find that something that i want to play isn't coming too easily - tremolo for instance at one time,i'll find tunes that have a lot of tremolo in them & use them. I'll practice tremolo ''within the context of a tune'',not on it's own. That way,i can hear if what i'm doing sounds right.
I was going to post one of the finest mandolin tremolo intros & solos i've ever heard, but it seems to have been removed fromYouTube. 'I Cried Again' by The Greenbriar Boys - Ralph Rinzler on mandolin. The track that got me interested in mandolin in the first place 50 years back - i only waited 40 year to buy a mandolin !!!
Ivan
PS - Here's a link to the whole album :-

[Jess L.]

... I was going to post one of the finest mandolin tremolo intros & solos i've ever heard, but it seems to have been removed fromYouTube. 'I Cried Again' by The Greenbriar Boys - Ralph Rinzler on mandolin. The track that got me interested in mandolin in the first place 50 years back - i only waited 40 year to buy a mandolin !!!
Ivan
PS - Here's a link to the whole album :-

*Wow* that's a smokin' hot "Let Me Fall" (20:20-22:08), cool that they also use *both* hard-drivin' oldtime frailing banjo (20:50-21:00) *and* bluegrass banjo (21:19-21:28) in the same song... don't hear that too often. It works well there though.

Now I think I know where Hank Bradley got his vocal inspiration from, I heard him do "Let Me Fall" at a workshop/jam thing in the '70s or '80s and it sounded a lot like that video... actually Hank's oldtime banjo sounded a bit like that too. Or maybe that's how that song is always done? Mucho nice, in any case.

However, while skipping through the video I haven't yet found the song that Ivan mentioned, 'I Cried Again', will listen to more of the video later.

" What do you suck at ? '' - If i find that something that i want to play isn't coming too easily - tremolo for instance at one time,i'll find tunes that have a lot of tremolo in them & use them. I'll practice tremolo ''within the context of a tune'',not on it's own. That way,i can hear if what i'm doing sounds right. ...

Sounds like sensible, logical advice.

[T.D.Nydn]

These guys have a great style,,some killer stuff on this album,,"I cried again" is toward the end,,but I like that 1st tune,and that banjo instrumental...