Abysmal Right Hand

[WillHelton]

Hello folks,

I've been playing at / playing mandolin off and on for many years (don't let that lead you to believe I'm very good, however) and decided a couple of years ago to get a good instrument (Kentucky) and start playing seriously with a view to really improving.

Scales, fingerings, all that are not a problem. I grew up playing guitar and also play jazz/bluegrass double bass. But try as I might, I can't seem to really get anywhere with my right hand picking technique.

Possible reason: I'm just a little under 7 feet tall with correspondingly long arms and large hands. In other words, my arm and hand don't fall on the instrument where they do for "normal" players. For me, a comfortable resting position leaves me almost picking on top of the bridge, which is too thin. Trying to move my arm/hand closer to the neck fo a richer and louder sound means I don't feel I have control of what I'm doing. My hand is essentially floating and I can't control what I'm hitting with any real accuracy, forget anything like actual song playing speed.

Also, I constantly feel like I'm fighting the instrument. As soon as I try to increase speed any, I can feel tension build in my arm and shoulder and no amount of relaxing seems to help. I don't seem to have this problem when playing the guitar (I'm not a fast guitar picker, I might add).

Is there anyone out there who might be able to spend a few minutes with me via Skype and try to suggest where I'm going wrong? I've tried all the pro tips (e.g. Chris Thile: hold the pick like you're just about to drop it - and I do) or sitting and playing with the neck tilted upwards, but none of it has seemed to fix the problem.

Ideally, I'd love to sound more like Andy Statman and be able to play with a wild right hand like Sam Bush (how can he play so fast and accurately with his hand swinging like that!?!), but am happy to anchor my pinkie if it will get me playing like Adam Steffey (so far I've not had much success with that either). :D

I hope this doesn't come over as all negative - it's not meant to be, honest - I'm just a bit frustrated and as such have pretty much stopped taking the ol' mando out of the case.

I hope someone can help.

Thanks,

Will

[Mark Wilson]

Sounds like a job for a pro. And he Skypes: https://donjulin.com/home

[AlanN]

+1

[BradKlein]

Agree with Mark Wilson, you'll almost certainly do best working with a good teacher, in person, at a workshop, or via Skype. I love the folks here at the Cafe - but remember, this is still the internet, and asking a question that does not really have One Good Answer, is going to get you a lot of different responses -- and how will you sort among them?

For example, even Thile's often repeated bit about holding the pick so loose that it almost falls from the hand. He delivered that advice as a young player, 20? years ago, when his style was quite different from where it is today.

Well known pros who Skype, and have given a lot of thought to the right hand include Statman, Mike Marshall, and Michael Daves (who I've studied with). Daves is known as a guitarist, but he's been a full time teacher for a long time, is a fantastic mandolin player, and has studied and taught the mechanics of the right hand. I could repeat what I've learned from him, but that just isn't the same as working with someone you respect, in person if possible.

[catmandu2]

Ergonomics are vitally important. Every instrument has its own feel. The mandolin is small - especially if one is accustomed to guitar. Resolving your issues may call for some remedial ergonomics training - this is ALWAYS frustrating to some degree, so hang in there.

Experimenting with various arm, hand, instrument positions as you've done should help you find optimal comfort relative to optimal sound production. Holding your right elbow closer to your body - if it isnt already - will help 'anchor' your forearm and provide a more stable platform for your hand.

Some picking exercises - concentrating on precision rather than 'strumming,' etc - might help.

Pete Martin, here on the cafe, I believe offers video tutorials on ergonomics.

[WillHelton]

Thanks to everyone who replied. There's a lot of food for thought there and I think first and foremost, the ergonomics of playing this much smaller instrument may well be the thing I need to address most.

I'll look into skype lessons with the above individuals and will hopefully find the thing that makes it "click". It really is just so frustrating, because the theory and the scales are all inside my head, but I just can't get my right hand to bring it all out.

Many thanks,

Will

[Relio]

My suggestion is start all of your practices doing scale work with a metronome for as long as you can before you get bored and focus on creating solid tone and experiment with right hand grips and pick attack location. You will slowly develop a faster and cleaner technique and find what feels right in terms of grip for you. FYI: I'm 6'6"

[mcgroup53]

Check out Winfield champ Scott Fore's video here on improving RH picking speed, tone and accuracy. It's on guitar, but applies equally to playing mandolin with a pick:

http://acousticguitar.com/flatpickin...music-to-play/

[AlanN]

Yes, Scot has good advice and exercises. His first one in the video above is a bit tough for mandolin, due to the double stringing. The goal of stopping the string only works on the string closest to the pick. But the idea (shortening the pick stroke) certainly applies.

[BradKlein]

Check out Winfield champ Scott Fore's video here...

This is a perfect example of what I meant to convey in my post above. Scott Fore is a contest flatpicker, and his advice seems very much aimed in that direction. That may not be what the Original Poster, or whoever else is following this thread, wants to be. And I'm pretty sure that Fore's right hand advice is NOT what, say, Andy Statman or Sam Bush (mentioned in the OP) would suggest.

Not trying to start any kind of conflict, but just expressing that it seems super important to find someone whose style of performance or teaching matches what you are trying to achieve. Even if you can only afford a few lessons with that person, or a single workshop, at least it will provide some coherent direction.

[peterleyenaar]

Don Julin's "Mandolins Heal The World" https://mandolinshealtheworld.com has some really nice sections on right hand technique. (left hand too)

[WillHelton]

Thanks everyone for the additional links and advice. I greatly appreciate it.

Strangely, I play a fair amount of gypsy jazz with an extremely heavy pick (4-5mm) and I don't have any real picking problems with this. But with the mandolin, it's like I'm standing still. And man, is that frustrating.

Y'all take care.

Will

[JonZ]

Does Sam Bush even recommend picking like Sam Bush?

[JonZ]

I think the key is in "no relaxing seems to help". Floating hand is normal. The length of your arm should put you naturally further from the bridge.

I would approach this like improving any other skill: simplify and focus on the problem. Isolate the right hand (no left hand). Work on gradually increasing speed while maintaining relaxation. When you get to a speed that tenses you, consciously relax your arm. Don't play faster until you have improved that first challenging tempo.

It's hard for everyone.

[Bill McCall]

..

When you get to a speed that tenses you, consciously relax your arm. Don't play faster until you have improved that first challenging tempo.

It's hard for everyone.

So how do you 'consciously relax' you arm? Or wrist?

[CarlM]

So how do you 'consciously relax' you arm? Or wrist?

Slow down.

Take it at a speed where you can relax and play in time. Perhaps painfully, deliberately slow. Let the speed come naturally with the understanding it will take longer than we would wish and may never happen.

[rockies]

I'm probably way out in leftfield but here goes .. I wonder if with your larger hands it's difficult to find a reference place for picking. Most players seem to use the bridge, letting the palm near the wrist lightly brush the strings behind the bridge. For myself it didn't seem to work well and it was difficult to get a "loose" wrist or decent tone. A few years ago I discussed this with Michael Heiden (who made my mandolin) and he suggested a small pickguard and just let my 2nd and 3rd fingers lightly brush it to give a reference point. So he installed one of his small ebony pickguards (I call it a finger rest). It worked great, I no longer touch the bridge at all and my tone has improved beyond all my hopes. I even had John Reischman comment on my tone once at a workshop.
Dave

[Tobin]

My hand is essentially floating and I can't control what I'm hitting with any real accuracy, forget anything like actual song playing speed.

Do you have a pick guard (aka finger rest) on your mandolin?

I think a lot of us prefer not to anchor our hands or wrists solidly to the instrument, because it creates a lot of tension and limits fluidity. But being "free floating" means a lot more precision is required. The compromise seems to be using a finger rest, and letting your last finger or two fingers brush on it as you pick. This provides just enough of a reference plane for more control, while not locking your picking hand down to the instrument. And it allows you to get closer to the neck.

Stop worrying about speed at this point. Accuracy needs to be your first priority. Only when you get comfortable playing fluidly and accurately can speed start to increase. Otherwise you will be fighting it and creating tension.

[JonZ]

So how do you 'consciously relax' you arm? Or wrist?

Granted, it is a subtle thing, but your ability to do it can be improved, if you do it in small increments.

[Drew Egerton]

I'd recommend Mike Marshall's Artist Works class. Send him one video and he'll get you straightened out.

[MikeZito]

I know I am a month late is climbing aboard here - but . . . Will, (I know this is a long shot) would you happen to be left-handed?

[WillHelton]

@rockies and Tobin

Thanks for your input and my apologies for the very late reply. Much has been going in since I last checked in.

No, my mando doesn't have a pick guard, but I've been wondering about that, too. The main thing that has stopped me from having one fitted is that if it doesn't work for me, I've damaged the instrument and am either stuck with it or have to put up with the unsightly marks it would leave behind.

I'll give this some more thought.

Just yesterday day I started choking up on my pick a bit more and sliding it further back under my thumb a la Mike Compton. It's hard to say at this point whether it's helping or just feels different, so I'll keep going with this for a while.

Many thanks for the suggestions. Very valuable insights (and bravo for getting such a huge compliment from John Reischman. He rules!)

[WillHelton]

Hi MikeZito,

No, I'm right handed.

Have you found this is a factor for some players? I'd love to hear more.

Thanks,
Will

[Beanzy]

If you’re catching and getting a bit of a snagging effect it’s basically because you’re too deep into the strings. As part of a warm up Chris Acquavella recommends sliding a piece of stiff plastic or a card beneath the A&D strings while doing some string crossing exercises; that way you get the feel for the most depth you should use. You do it with the card under the pick until you’re settled in, then slide it up the fretboard to see if you’re managing to maintain this depth. Slide it back again and so on. It makes a rubbish sound, but sets your feel up at the start of a practice, so you’re getting off to a good start.

The Mandolin Companion has loads of good right hand exercises in it. I run a few every day for about 15-20 mins of my practice time. Sometimes I zone out and find I’ve been going much longer, it’s a bit meditative.
https://www.astute-music.com/store/p...cquavella.html

[WillHelton]

Thanks for the tip, Eoin.

Is this bit of card warm-up covered in the book? Looks like a good publication. I'll definitely get a copy of it.

Best,

Will