Practicing the Hard Stuff

[Austin Bob]

For a large part of my life, I just played what I knew. Sure, I worked on songs, but I never really focused on learning the harder scales or techniques.

This week our choir played Take and Eat. The verse gave me the fits, I must have played it at least 50 times before I got it down, but I took a solo today and NAILED it.

Tonight I'm back to bluegrass, working on my right hand with double stops and switching strings. If I keep practicing, it eventually starts to sink in.

[Pete Martin]

There is a difference between practicing and playing.

PLAYING is fun, but eventually you will reach a plateau from which you will never get any better.

PRACTICING will make you better.

Find a good balance between these two that works for you!

[UsuallyPickin]

Yeah ... Pete's right. Playing isn't working. Learning new tunes , songs and techniques isn't playing. But it makes playing step up a notch. Spending part of each music period working rather than playing makes for big differences in your music over time. R/

[Earl Gamage]

There is a teacher named Paul Oorts I met at Hill Country Music Camp. He leads what he calls a social orchestra, which is whatever instrument shows up, he arranges the tune so everyone has a part. I played bass on the social orchestra and Paul wrote what to me was a difficult bass line. I couldn't play it, but I practiced it and got it down. Paul walked in and caught me practicing and I told him I could play it. He said "Amazing what practice will do". This was a great lesson for me. Keep practicing!

[Austin Bob]

After thinking about this a while, I realize that if I knew all of my scales and knew how to play in any position, this would have been easier. But then there's always the return on investment part, it's not often we're called on to play a piece with 5 flats.

[Tom Wright]

I do not think anyone ever learns all the supposed building blocks of scales and chords, and only then learns tunes. In classical training, we are playing tunes first, add in scales after a bit, still learning new tunes. Then we add in more ambitious technical studies, both weird finger exercises and etudes that are musical, but explore one technique. Still we keep adding actual music, the simpler solo pieces from literature, and then more complicated pieces like a sonata or concerto.

The point is that music itself is the set of techniques---exercises are just piling on. No one learns all the possible jazz chords first, they (or at least I) learn some that work for one song. Then when trying a new song, some of that carries over, and some new things needed for the new song will improve the first song. After a while I see more connections and similarities, and how to improve the stuff I learned long ago. Eventually I know a batch of go-to chords, and some cool moves for certain tunes.

Regarding difficult passages and melodies, practice is training, much more than it is learning. You don't get a good golf swing after the pro shows you his move. You have to practice (for years). 50 times for a little spot of one or two measures is about 15-20 minutes of normal practice for me, repeated during the day, applied to several areas of pieces I'm working on. This pretty much every day of the year that is possible. Aggregate reps might be a few hundred daily. Multiply by 350 days, let's say, and I'm well over a hundred thousand reps in a year.

The hymn you worked on is now your own exercise, and you can back-apply it to scales you might study.

[catmandu2]

No one learns all the possible jazz chords first...

Coming up in the classical mold, my early experiences were as Tom's. However, when I started studying jazz theory, I did pretty much just hit chord theory clinically for 1-2 years - without much musical context except for progressions, chord scales, that stuff. I was smitten with Al Dimeola's 'Cielo e Terra' and that's about all I played for people at the time, and Metheny stuff ... I was simultaneously studying/playing pedal steel and this is where my song, lick, idiomatic device application was..

Not saying that's the way to do it - only my approach. I think years later, on plectrum banjos, I took the 'applied technical' approach, as what Tom mentions - (rather than formulating my own exercises which were all very technical and just hammering that all day, I took a song-based approach with respect to arranging, improvization, etc)

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Austin Bob - "I realize that if I knew all of my scales and knew how to play in any position, this would have been easier."

Bob - On banjo & now mandolin,other than to prove that i could play scales,i haven't played a scale as such for decades. Even so,i can find all the 'sounds' (notes) that i want for almost any tune i choose to play,simply because i've practiced exactly that - ''finding where the notes are''. If i can hear the tune in my head ( or where i want to go with it),i can find the notes.
I also don't have trouble in playing in any key - i regularly play tunes in F / E / Bb etc.

I'm an 'ear player' & like all other 'ear players' it takes a lot of listening & 'trying out' to get to play a tune correctly,& for that reason,what we learn really sticks !.

Scales & other excercises are fine if that's what you want to do,but they're not an absolute requirement (IMHO),
Ivan

[Nevin]

From Austin Bob - "I realize that if I knew all of my scales and knew how to play in any position, this would have been easier."

Bob - On banjo & now mandolin,other than to prove that i could play scales,i haven't played a scale as such for decades. Even so,i can find all the 'sounds' (notes) that i want for almost any tune i choose to play,simply because i've practiced exactly that - ''finding where the notes are''. If i can hear the tune in my head ( or where i want to go with it),i can find the notes.
I also don't have trouble in playing in any key - i regularly play tunes in F / E / Bb etc.

I'm an 'ear player' & like all other 'ear players' it takes a lot of listening & 'trying out' to get to play a tune correctly,& for that reason,what we learn really sticks !.

Scales & other excercises are fine if that's what you want to do,but they're not an absolute requirement (IMHO),
Ivan

Of course they aren't a requirement. They are a tools, and very useful ones. Since most of the tunes we play are tonal, they are the building blocks of the music we play.

[Mandoplumb]

I agree with Bob, I disagree that one has to try all notes trying to play something. As he states one learns where the sounds are and in relation to the previous one so playing in any chord is fairly easy. I know some written music, not as much as I would like, but I don't play by music. I play by ear and memory of where the next sound i want is located. I dont think "I'm playing in 5 flats" because it is no different than 1 sharp except where you start on the fingerboard. After 50+ years of playing, it is so engrained in me that if I'm trying to play a simple melody on a mountain dulcimer, my mind tells me next note 2 frets up and I'll go 2 frets on dulcimer which is 2 whole notes, not 1. My point is I think in "frets" not scales.

[Austin Bob]

Scales & other excercises are fine if that's what you want to do,but they're not an absolute requirement (IMHO),
Ivan

Ivan, what I meant is that I can look at the key signature for common keys such as G, C, D, F, Bb, etc, and know instantly which fingers go on which frets, which notes are sharp and which are flat. This is partially from knowing those scales, partially from playing often in those keys. The verse for this was in Bb minor, and the 5 flats had me lost at first. It then switched back to Bb for the refrain, and all of this was a bit foreign to me. I've taught myself to read music at a Dick and Jane level, but I didn't practice the hard stuff. Hence the post.

Had I known the Db scale (Bb minor) by heart, this would have been much easier.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Bob - What i meant is that as i don't read music,i don't need to look at a key signatures. As long as i know what key a tune is,& i can follow the melody line,i know exactly where to put my fingers because for 11 years that's what i've been practicing.
Simply two ways of getting to the same place. I don't think in terms of 'scales / notes' - i think in terms of where the next 'sound' is.
I know that they are notes of course,but i play 'the sound that they make',not their names,
Ivan

[sbhikes]

I think I learn all the keys the way you guys describe. By just knowing where my fingers go. It's not like I really know what note I'm actually playing. If it's a key I haven't played in, I have a hard time finding the right notes until my fingers learn them. Once my fingers know, then it's as easy as playing any other tune. I'll admit I've only ever played one F tune and I've never played anything in B flat.

[Ivan Kelsall]

As long as you hit the correct note,in the correct place with the correct timing,who cares if you know their names or not ?. As it is,we all know that 'notes have names' & we mostly learn them bit by bit 'by default' as it were.

One member posted a thread a while back about tunes in the key of E - well,one of my favourite bands to pick along to is ''Blue Highway'' & they sing a lot of songs in the key of E - so what do you do ? - learn to play in the key of E !!. One song that i like very much is one of Banjo player Alison Brown's songs ''Fair Weather'' from her CD of the same name. It's in the key of Bb, & Sam Bush takes a very tasty break in it - if you want to pick along to it,what option have you got but to learn to play it in Bb ?.

I've taught myself to play mandolin by picking along to every tune that came on the I/net radio stations i use(d) - mostly gone now. It didn't matter what key it was in,i had a crack at it & i gradually learned to play in the various keys. No big deal - just time,practice & patience,
Ivan

[Mandoplumb]

The mandolin is tuned in 5th's, so there are patterns that just move all over the fretboard. If you can play it in C, move over one string, or up 5frets do the same thing and you're in F. I have to stop and count frets if I want to know the name of the note, I play by the pattern.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Mandoplumb sums it up perfectly above. Most of us who've played other instruments prior to coming to mandolin,have been somewhat amazed at how 'logical' the tuning is & how easy it is to do what Mandoplumb says. I play exactly as MP does. I did the same on banjo,but then,i used a capo to 'set the key', on mandolin,as long as i know where the first note is,i'm fine !,
Ivan

[Austin Bob]

I played the guitar for years, and yes, the mandolin is much easier for me to just pick out a tune. I also practice by listening to the radio or other random sources and play along. Nothing beats that kind of ability - sliding up to the first note in the scale and then take it from there automatically.

But playing in a choir is different. Liturgical music does not always sync up with what we've learned from other genres. Plus you often have 2 or more new songs to learn for Sunday with only an hour's practice for the whole mass. I posted the sheet music to this song earlier, but here it is on YouTube. The refrain is easy. But if you can nail the verse without practice, then you are a better musician than I am, and I tip my hat to you.


BTW, we play this again on Sunday, it will be a piece of cake this time.

[Mandoplumb]

Austin Bob. Yes there are tunes more complex than what I usually play, I have played with the choir at my church a little and the timing, chord progression, and even melodies are complicated, but by playing the patterns if I ever find it and get comfortable with it in one key, I can easily move to another tune. A lot of written music for choirs change keys at least once.

[JeffD]

After thinking about this a while, I realize that if I knew all of my scales and knew how to play in any position, this would have been easier. But then there's always the return on investment part, it's not often we're called on to play a piece with 5 flats.

That is not the point. IMO.

Playing scales and arpeggios in closed position, in open position, up and down the neck, on one string, all this kind of stuff prepares the hand and ears for flexibility and "whatever gets thrown at you". Also it prepares you for improve because you will find greater creativity knowing your way around the fret board. Fewer ideas will be "forbidden", like occasional excursion into yea, even five flats.

One school of thought is that knowing scales and arpeggios is not as important as knowing scale and arpeggio patterns, that you can implement anywhere on the fretboard.

The other school of thought is to practice from written out scales and arpeggios, like from a book of exercises, so you never lose sight of where you are on the staff and what key you are in. (A danger with moveable patterns.)

I subscribe to the "have to do it all" school. And as the name of this thread emphasizes, the difficulty of an exercise is no excuse for not doing it. (I know myself I often often most of the time cop out and cheat myself by considering the usefulness of something when really its because its so difficult I would rather not have to do it.)

[HonketyHank]

...
The other school of thought is to practice from written out scales and arpeggios, like from a book of exercises, so you never lose sight of where you are on the staff and what key you are in. (A danger with moveable patterns.)
...

Like when Bill Monroe was asked what key to play a tune in, fretted a string somewhere up the neck and said "the key of this here".

(one of my favorite anecdotes about him) (however true it may be)

[Austin Bob]

Well, this song came up again in rotation today. I'm not sure how many of you have actually tried to play the sheet music. What I find difficult is not the playing, it's the reading.

Now that I have it memorized, it's pretty easy for me to play, but I still have a heck of a time trying to make sense out of reading the music. It's in Bb, which is easy enough. But the verses have three more flats. I don't know music theory, is modulation the correct term here? It basically goes up a step and a half for the verse.


If you look at my first post in this thread, there's a link to the sheet music. In the link, the verses are shown in C#. Not so in the music I have. My copy is written with both the verse and refrain in the same key, but the verses have the flats written in as accidentals for G, A and D.

That's what I meant by saying if I had practiced reading in those keys, it would have been easier.

I don't have any problem playing a I IV V progression in C#, but that's not what this is.

[farmerjones]

I was surprised by the direction this thread took. It could not have been more appropriate. Because the hard stuff to me is what I don't know. What makes that hard is the fact, I don't know what I don't know. The only place this reveals itself is playing with others. Wait. No. I should say playing with strangers. I've said it before, you can't throw yourself a curveball. I do know, there's no such thing as too much practice or rehearsal. Unless of course, you're loosing weight, and spouse because of it. Let's be careful out there.

[JeffD]

I've said it before, you can't throw yourself a curveball.

That cannot be said enough.

[Mark Wilson]

The only place this reveals itself is playing with others. Wait. No. I should say playing with strangers.

That's the scary truth for me. It take more practice to play well with others than just learning a song well enough to get thru it clean at home. You will only know how much practice YOU need by playing with others. And yeah strangers can freeze my brain if I'm unprepared

[Bill McCall]

I think if you learn the scale patterns in the FFCP format, you can play a scale from any fret four different ways. That allows you to choose where on the neck is the most comfortable or has the tone you desire. Then all the keys are the same. For BG, I'm focusing on the root on the index and ring finger positions, scale and arpeggio focus. Doesn't help my right hand any, but makes changing keys easier. You just have to find the root note and you don't need to know all of the note names on the fly.

Another thing I've done is to chart the intervals to understand what's going on, i.e., identify the scale position of the notes. Provided me with some insight as you're now just playing simple scale tones which you may know from the scale patterns since you can count to 8. Ymmv