Tremolo wrist vs forearm

[robertr]

I am finding it impossible to play tremolo with a relaxed and loose wrist, as I'm in the habit of using my forearm. No matter how I try, I simply can't get the motion shown by Mike Marshall and others, and I think my locked arm motion is really limiting my speed. Here's the best instruction I have found on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxvD41asKCY

and here's Mike Marshall's video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7vqNh5k96o

Interestingly, Mike Marshall has said he can't replicate playing tremolo with his arm (and there is almost nothing he can't play!). Do any of you have suggestions on how to get that wrist movement up to speed? I can do it at slower speed, but any faster and the forearm takes over.

Thanks for any suggestions (or sympathy)

[billkilpatrick]

Might sound weird but pretend to have palsy - shaking hand. If you can see a tremolo movement in your hand/wrist before you start playing it might help loosen them up when you do.

[bratsche]

Or pretend you look down and see a bunch of bees have landed on your hand - shake them off, quick, before they sting you!

bratsche

[pops1]

A good tremolo is hard to beat. I feel that wrist or forearm can both produce it. The angle of the pick is a definite plus when trying to play a good tremolo. The more you angle your pick the harder you can play with less resistance and less volume.

[Explorer]

I am finding it impossible to play tremolo with a relaxed and loose wrist, as I'm in the habit of using my forearm. No matter how I try, I simply can't get the motion shown by Mike Marshall and others, and I think my locked arm motion is really limiting my speed.

Do any of you have suggestions on how to get that wrist movement up to speed? I can do it at slower speed, but any faster and the forearm takes over.

Thanks for any suggestions (or sympathy)

Here'a the easiest exercise progression:

Hild your forearm out and extend and curl your fingertips like you're lightly cupping and holding a huge doorknob, with the point of the knob opposite the turning shaft in the center of your palm. That will leave a small angle in your wrist. Start rotating the doorknob back and forth. You'll have movement of the elbow as you get faster and faster, but the wrist will start in the same position.

Now, hold your forearm vertically with the hand open, like you're in the Miss America contest and are going to wave goodbye to someone. The hand will be in much the same position as in the doorknob exercise, but with the fingers completely extended. Start waving the hand by rotating the wrist and then speed up, like you're trying to shake a bee off yoir fingertips. Don't worry about a little forearm rotation as long as your wrist stays in mostly the same place.

Now, you'll shame the crowd. Lightly curl in all your fingers except the extended forefinger, tilting your forearm at a 45-degree angle towards the crowd. Start rotating your wrist in the same way as before, slowly working your finger back and forth, in a "No no no!" position, and slowly increase the speed uintil the finger has blurred nto a shame-casting frenzy.


Keeping your hand in that same position, bring in that forefinger to a curled position and, with the other hand, place a pick betweem the forefinger and thumb. Your forearm is still in that 45-degree tilt. Now start rotating your wrist as previously, keeping the wrist itself in the same place, and watch the pick become a blur as you increase your speed.

Now... as you are doing this, straighten your wrist a little. Keep going with the blurry pick. Maybe straighten the wrist a little more. The elbow will be wiggling, but you will be powering the pick with your wrist. With practice, you'll find that you flatten all the way and still not involve your forearm to power the picking action.

Was this helpful?

[Mandoplumb]

I guess I'm dense but I can't tell exactly what you mean about the forearm. I've been using tremolo so long I don't think about how, now you've got me thinking. My wrist is loose but forearm rotates, a wrist don't move left to right with out forearm rotating. When you say using your forearm are you working from elbow out? If so how do you get any speed, tremolo or not? To me wrist should always be loose, at least in my definition of loose.

[Bernie Daniel]

Here is much of what you need to know....




Edit --OK I see this video has already been cited -- nevermind.

[AlanN]

Cite away, simply to counteract some of the more confusing ideas surrounding this technique.

[derbex]

Why do you want to change? If you are getting an acceptable tremolo with your forearm that's fine -it's actually the way I was taught.

[JeffD]

I've been using tremolo so long I don't think about how, now you've got me thinking..... To me wrist should always be loose, at least in my definition of loose.

Yea. I started tremolo early on and it has become so automatic, like tying shoe laces, I have to watch myself to see how I do it.

I know in general my arm is very relaxed. The only conscious tension is holding the pick. When I look I see almost no elbow joint movement. I am not keeping my elbow stiff, it just isn't moving much at all. The rest appears a combination of wrist up and down, and arm rotation. But like Mandoplumb says loose, no tension, no stiffness.

I hope that helps.

[DavidKOS]

A good tremolo is hard to beat. I feel that wrist or forearm can both produce it. .

Yea. I started tremolo early on and it has become so automatic, like tying shoe laces, I have to watch myself to see how I do it.

I learned tremolo early on, too.

Frankly, I use a combination of wrist, forearm, and the fingers themselves. No one part alone does it all.

[JeffD]

Frankly, I use a combination of wrist, forearm, and the fingers themselves. No one part alone does it all.

Wow, now that is interesting. Fingers. Doing what, varying the angle of attack or something?

[Tobin]

Wow, now that is interesting. Fingers. Doing what, varying the angle of attack or something?

I won't speak for David, but I do use muscles in my fingers to help with tremolo. As best as I can describe it, it's mainly just fluttering the tension level between my thumb against the side of my forefinger. Despite my best efforts, I cannot get smooth or fast tremolo from my wrist alone. Having a metal plate and 11 screws holding my wrist together from a horse accident may have something to do with that. So, like Sam Bush, I have had to find other moveable joints to get tremolo going. I do use my elbow to some degree, but try to smooth it out with what little wrist flexibility I have, as well as trying to get my pick-holding digits into play.

[crisscross]

I am finding it impossible to play tremolo with a relaxed and loose wrist, as I'm in the habit of using my forearm.

Don't worry, you are not the only one facing this problem:

[robertr]

Thanks for all these wonderful suggestions. Several of you learned to do tremolo early in life, and I am late to the game. I wonder if it's almost "neurologic". I wish Explorer would post a short video showing his method. I can do a nice smooth tremolo with my full forearm, but I think the same wrist motion is needed to play fast single lines, too. Also, it's difficult to transition in and out of arm-tremolo from picking melodies. I just viewed the Bill Monroe accepting his rebuilt mando at Gibson, and he's all in the wrist. Keep the suggestions coming!

[Explorer]

Thanks for all these wonderful suggestions. Several of you learned to do tremolo early in life, and I am late to the game. I wonder if it's almost "neurologic". I wish Explorer would post a short video showing his method. I can do a nice smooth tremolo with my full forearm, but I think the same wrist motion is needed to play fast single lines, too. Also, it's difficult to transition in and out of arm-tremolo from picking melodies. I just viewed the Bill Monroe accepting his rebuilt mando at Gibson, and he's all in the wrist. Keep the suggestions coming!

Sorry, friend! I have no camera, and not even a modern computer.

If my suggestions were too hard to follow, here's a different approach.

Hold a pencil, pen, or drumstick in your curled hand. The stick/pen/whatever will rest in your curled fingers, with your thumb holding it against the middle knuckle of the index finger. While sitting in a chair with armrests, place your right elbow and forearm along the armrest, ulna down and radius up, and palm facing towards your left, with your hand and wrist free and lightly dangling. Now, lift your hand using the wrist towards the radius, and then move it down, as if you are hitting a small drum with the stick. Repeat. Slowly increase the speed, drumming faster and faster. You should be able to do this without your wrist locking and without involving your forearm in the drumming motion.

Once you get used to this, you can likely move your chair towards a table or desk, and start hitting the stick on a notepad on the edge of the table or desk, again without having to involve your whole forearm to do the smaller motion.

If you can manage to scribble small lines back and forth without involving your whole forearm, I'm confident you can do the same kind of motion for other activities.

Good luck!

[billkilpatrick]

Robert - Try this: Hold your pick between forefinger and thumb with the least amount of pressure possible - really exaggerate it. I can do both: forearm with the pick squeezed tightly but when my forefinger and thumb are more relaxed, the wrist just seems to kick in automatically. Science marches on!

[Jon Hall]

Explorer: If I understand your instructions correctly, the wrist motion is similar to motion of casting a fly rod or using a hammer with out any forearm movement, correct? This is a completely different motion than a rotating of the wrist as if turning a door knob correct? I really appreciate your explanations.

[robertr]

The wrist can move on several different axis. Many great players use radial/ulnar deviation to do tremolo. Not much rotation (pronation/supination). I can play at moderate speeds "correctly", but my wrist locks and the forearm/elbow takes over with speed. The same problem may occur when I play single string licks, too - limiting my comfortable speed.

I noticed this video shows forearm tremolo - so maybe it's done successfully both ways.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ld8uJdb-2T0

[Mandoplumb]

Robertr. How can you hold a pick and get your hand in position to use radial/ulnor for tremolo. To me it would be impossible to get the movement up to speed for tremolo. Wrist should be loose but arm up to elbow must rotate back and forth. Elbow doesn't move, arm doesn't move up and down, but forearm rotates.

[robertr]

I am unable to do it as described, except at slower speeds than tremolo. Watch the motion on the Mike Marshall video earlier in this thread to see his technique. Maybe there is a bit of rotation/supination at the wrist.

[CHASAX]

Watch the forearm
https://youtu.be/P0aiZ20rTT8
Having the same problem with my wrist.

[JonZ]

Evan Marshall seems to use forearm movement sometimes and wrist movement sometimes.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=AHLPvE7uiUc

[Eric Platt]

Good luck. I'm actually going through the opposite. I have been doing tremolo with my wrist. However, for Finnish American music, (the music I'm currently learning and performing), it should probably be from the forearm to get the correct tone. I'm too lazy to really push it. Learned to have a relaxed wrist when playing guitar and just moved it over to the mandolin. Eventually I'm going to have to learn how to do it. But not looking forward to it.

[T.D.Nydn]

The tremolo is essential mandolin technique,I've been using that since I was a child,,I also use my wrist,forearm and fingers,but the trick is micro movements,,a good tremolo looks like your barely moving your right hand,just very efficient small but quick movements,