Just wondering what everyones take is on the mandolin market (new and used)? Excluding super high end and loars. It looks like alot less is selling. A look on ebay shows few for sale ($1000 and up) in the last few months and with the ones listed few are selling. Alot in the classifieds just sitting and internet dealer seem to have the same stock week after week. Just wondering what everyones take is on this.
If people could identify if they are a player, builder, or dealer that would be great.
Daryl
I dunno, maybe it's true but I haven't really noticed it. I put a mando in the classifides last week and had close to 20 replies, getting a "sale pending" status the third day (this all to help finance a soon-to-be completed custom made instrument). I've seen several recent posts about folks placing their orders or taking delivery of fairly expensive instruments (and a few mid-priced ones too, like mine), and this morning I saw a couple of new additions to the used mandolins at Elderly Instruments (two Bluetts).
Maybe I'm not seeing the bigger picture...
Player.
In my picture of the world I haven't seen a decline in anything. There are as many or more for sale now than last year, or the year before, and yet prices haven't dropped.
Less talk, more pick.
i think they have just gotten too darn expensive.....we could (and have) debated this, but when instruments start getting in the near $10K and above range, then it just starts shutting people out.
now, in my case, i make some money from public performances, so, i can write the cost of a mando off on my taxes, but for an amature musician to plunk down $10K+ is a big decision.
my opinion is that the HUGE run up in prices was *mostly* speculation. what i mean is that if you see mandos selling for 2x what they were a year ago, then all of a sudden the price doesnt look so bad. you figure you can earn some money and get your dream mando too. A LOT of people i knew were commissioning instruments with the FIRM belief that by the time they were completed, the street selling price would be FAR more than the initial cost. now, as you say, these mandos are being delivered and the buyers are faced with the payment and a soft mando market.
If you knew back when Loars were selling for $40K that they would be 3-4x that in less than 5 years, i'm sure a lot of us would have pulled the trigger...similiarly, when Gil's were $8K, i thought that was crazy, but NOW, it seems like a no-brainer. if we could "see" the day when they were selling for $40K, then i'm sure there would be no problem selling them all day long at $25K (if anyone would sell)
do i think there is a crash coming...NO, but the days of prices doubling every 2-3 years are over too, IMO.
Big Joe says they are selling all they can make. Charles Johnson (Mando World) said his sales are fine. This topic seemed to come up a short time ago.
I think the used market in the $1,500 to $4,000 range has slowed. Burst? I would not go as far to say that. Prices on used Webers have certainly dropped off from where they were a couple of years ago. I bought a used Flatiron Festival F awhile back that I picked up for $1,600. That was less than they had been selling for.
Probably a good time to be buying
pickinNgrinnin, You have a link to that topic?
I have the same feeling as you. It's time to buy. Just the selling part you will take a bath on.
Ewallick. Looking at the classifieds you sold a few month old columbia for $900 shipped and insured. Wish I would have caught that ad.
Daryl
don't worry about amateur musicians- PRO musicians can't afford 'em !!!!
John McGann, Associate Professor, Berklee College of Music
johnmcgann.com
myspace page
Youtube live mando
"i think they have just gotten too darn expensive"
I agree, to darn expensive for normal folk. I for one and I can afford it will not pay those prices for a musical instrument unless playing it was to be my chosen profession and then I would have to really think about it verses family, living, food and medical. People will start putting their true priorities in order. And I can assure you paying $10k for a instrument will not be one of them. As prices rise along with fuel oil which impacts about everything in our life, so will the decline in high end instrument sales or any high price item regardless of what it is. GM, All Airlines, Ford all having a hard time making a profit as they increase their prices to support employee wages, medical and pension plans. What makes mandolin sales any different, nothing, unless you are one of the % whom have all the money to purchase anything at anytime.
I am a relative novice with regards to mandos, but my opinion is formed not just from my limited experience but also drawing on advice of close friends and family members who have been playing, buying and selling them for some time...
You can get a reasonably good A starting around $200 and a reasonably good F starting around $500. Double those numbers and you will have several good choices. This has not always been the case, and there are still many models in this range that are gawdy junk. Notice that I said good, not great. I am not kidding myself. They are not on par with Gibsons, Collings, Webers and the like, but they are not far off the mark either. My brand new $200 A model has an adjustable truss rod, perfect intonation, great action with no buzzing and a nice warm rich tone. The peg head inlays are no doubt machine stamped and the peg head has no binding (oh the shame of it all#). I think the tuners are copied from vintage Gibsons, but they are generic. However, they tighten or loosen the strings when you turn the knobs and they keep keep them where you left them when you don't turn the knobs. And it has a lifetime guarantee from a maker that has been around over a century.
Anyway, I have been told that seeing quality down in these ranges of price is a relatively new thing and is eroding market share from the middle, but not the top. People who want the best (I am one of them) and are willing and able to pay the most (I am not one of them yet but want to be) continue to pay top dollar for the top instruments. But doubling the price for a small incremental step in quality yet not getting the best is oddly harder to justify.
Another thing I am not sure of is where the line for appreciation versus depreciation lies. If you buy a $3000 mando, you can probably expect to get your money out of it and possibly more if you hang onto it a few years and keep it in premium shape. If you buy a $500 instrument, you will likely have to sell it for less than you paid. What about a $1000 instrument? $1500? I just don't know.
I really want to spend a few thousand on a mando some day, but until I can I will be a bargain hunter and those bargains make buying in the mid range hard to justify, IMO.
"First you master your instrument, then you master the music, then you forget about all that ... and just play"
Charlie "Bird" Parker
Yes. It is a year old and I really like it but I'm financing my next (is there ever a last?) mando, custom made by a dear friend. The selling price is just about what I'd get trade-in or resale value-wise and the right price helps a quick sale and everybody's happy.Originally Posted by (man doh @ June 15 2005, 12:41)
You never know who is going to spring for the high end stuff. Thirty years ago,I was sent by my radio station to a small county fair nearby to collect some interviews. Naturally,I gravitated to the musicians who were sitting,not playing,in a shady spot near the stands. Walking up to a group of older local players,I spotted a very fine looking guitar case. After howdies,I casually asked who the case belonged to. A friendly looking septuagenarian in working clothes held up his hand. I asked him what was in there and he said, "D-45". I thought,yeah..Dee forty five dollar geetar. "Mind if I have a look?" "Go right ahead." It was as he said..the Big Martin with all the jewels..new too. He said he'd bought it about a year ago,but hadn't played it much. Later I saw the band in action and he was happily chunking out the standard three open chords. Not a pro,not a great player,not a millionaire I'm guessing. He just wanted what he thought was the best and bought it. I've seen similar phenomena with violins and bows.
Jim
As I have given up just about all other forms of recreation (except occasional movies and dinner with the wife) I am pretty sure I understand the old gent's point of view. I don't have what a lot of you all may consider "the best", but I have bought mandolins that have the sound I've wanted without consideration for the cost. I have one custom instrument on order now that is not inexpensive, but if once a week I throw the money in a shoebox that I would have spent on _(fill in the blank: fine wine, cigars, golf, photography, international travel, motor home payments, a new Harley, whatever) I can easily afford it by the time it comes to pay.
As I get older I want fewer things, and mandolins with beautiful sound is one of the few things left that I consider well worth it.
Ha, ha! keep time: how sour sweet music is,
When time is broke and no proportion kept!
--William Shakespeare
man doh-
I looked around a bit and could not find the thread. I'm sure it came up awhile back as it does on a semi regular basis. The talk of Mandolins getting too expensive also seems to come up fairly regular. Just a couple of the threads that appear to recycle themselves.
Don't do your market research on Ebay alone. #They're nothing but a electronic garage sale, mostly. #People trying to unload their unwanted 'stuff.' #The 'Baby Boomers' are just now getting to the point in their lives they can start doing what they want for themselves. #Picking up the old axe again should be high on their priority. #We just gotta remind them. #And if they didn't play mando 'back in the day', they're sure to take another (or first) look at it now. #We just gotta figure out how to remind them that they're old instrument is calling. #They should reinvestigate their musical soul. #Any suggestions?
"If you've got time to breathe, you've got time for music," Briscoe Darling
Our mandolin sales in the retail store are as strong or stronger than ever. #We cannot keep used mandolins in stock and the new ones are finding happy owners quite often. #I even keep an eye on the used market quite closely. #The price of used Gibsons has gone up in the last year. #The ones that brought 4500 a year ago are bringing in the mid to upper 5's now. #There aren't that many available used and the owner's are not wanting to trade them often. #That is a two edged sword, as in a normal situation one would want trades to help the customer upgrade. #However, I've seen more and more people wanting to keep the old mandolin and add to their collection. #They may be selling them elsewhere, but they are not trading them. #Banjo sales have even been better than ever. #We have sold more banjos this year than any two years before and we always sell lots of banjos. #
I don't think the market has slowed at all. #The dealers I talk to are doing quite well and the product is continuing to move quite well. #I'm sure there are pockets where sales may be off due to local economic situations, but over all we are in good shape.
As to the price of new mandolins, if you are looking for a Master Model, or a Distressed, or a Gilchrist or Dudenbostel, you are going to pay a premium. #Those are the premium mandolins on the market and they are worth the bucks. #(If I've left someone out it was not intentional. It was a brief list off the top of my head) #There are many good mandolins for under 10K which will give a lifetime of good service, playability and tone. #We have them from 2K and up at Gibson. #There are some pac rim models that are getting pretty good for the bucks. #Not the same quality or tone as a good hand made mandolin, but not bad for the bucks. #There are a good number of builders (I won't even begin to name names or I'll be in trouble again) who can make you a good mandolin for a modest price. #I really don't think mandolin prices as a whole are that high. #An upper end mandolin has always been out of reach of most consumers and that is not likely to change. #Those mandolins can only be built in small quantities and the demand is pretty constant for them. #As long as that is the case, only those who really want them will lay out the cash for them.
For the rest of us, there are many good mandolins in the price ranges we can afford or justify. #I have some pretty nice instruments. #That is my choice and I do that instead of many things other put their money towards. #I don't golf, fish, have a vacation house, camper, sports car, or etc, etc,etc. #I have mandolins and guitars. #Oh, and a few swiss watches. #My other vice. #
My best advice for anyone is simple. #No matter the brand, just buy the best you can with the bucks you have and you will be a happy camper. #Don't short yourself on your mandonlin purchase or you will be unhappy. #Get the best you honestly can justify for you and your lifestyle and you will be a happy picker. #Now that I've said all that, how come mandolins are so expensive?
Have a Great Day!
Joe Vest
I have a fair number of conversations with dealers around the country. My take is that the mandolin demand is high and has been for 4-5 years now. There has been no drop off and if anything a slow rise in demand.
It is a weak argument to bring up the very high end market and hold it as a realization that mandolins are too expensive. You can buy a mandolin off ebay for $30. And if you have the money and are willing you can buy a mandolin for $120k+. The market is wide open for everyone's budget. If your dream mandolin costs too much than you just don't want it bad enough. It is a highly competative market and prices are low.
Thank you everyone for the responses. #
My feeling is the resale market on some mandolins has slowed and prices have lowered(low end products by large builders). #I think with the wide variety of builders at such varying price ranges, the resale market is soft. # #
I agree with Chris on the wide price range of mandolins on the market today. #I was curious what the small builders have to say. #
I think the rise in price for the major builders has opened up a nice little area for the small builders to be able to make a living at it. This in turn giving an alternate at that price to a used instrument.
And an outlet like this website give small builders a place to display your products makes the cost the advertising minimal to get your name out there. #
I would be curious all said and done when you take out all the advertising and dealers cuts just how much more a Big name like Gibson is actually making over a small builder on instruments. #
Oh and they have to pay Big Joe the big bucks to police this site 24/7
Daryl
Grow, I can relate to the older fellow too. I'm not quite as far along in life, but still at a stage where, overall, the options are starting to get closed out. When I look around at all the people who have boats: I don't want one; motorcycles: I don't want one; snowmobiles and ATVs: I don't want one; stud cars: I don't want one; extramarital whatever: no thanks. So when it gets down to the few "things" that stir my blood, I'm not ashamed to go top-shelf, reciting my non-shopping mantra for support. Whether this reflects maturity, I suppose you can argue either way.
(Lest any of the above sound like some sort of invalid, I still have my running passion, and ran a marathon over Memorial Weekend . . . no, it did not take the entire weekend to do it!) -- Paul
He joyously felt himself idling, an unreflective mood in which water was water, sky was sky, breeze was breeze. He knew it couldn't last. -- Thomas McGuane, "Nothing but Blue Skies"
One of the reasons I ask this question is it seems that alot of people talk about having to sell a mandolin to fund a build almost completed.
If enough people are doing this I would think after awhile there would be a flux of used mandolins out there thus driving the prices down.
It seems to me there are quite of few people that turn over a decent amount of mandolins in a year in search of the right one. I not sure if people are holding onto a larger collection these days or just buying and selling?
Daryl
Good point man doh. How many are in "UPS Limbo" right now as we speak (write)?
I'm having a custom built mandolin and it will end up costing me around 2000. I haven't decided whether I'll need to sell my Weber Hyalite to pay for part of it but I'd rather be able to keep it. I paid 740 for it but had a guy offer me 1000 cash several months ago.
"Experience has shown that even under the best forms (of government) those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny."
-Thomas Jefferson
anytime you have a high demand and limited supply - the prices will stay up...so really, it will only be the next 3-5 years when all this sort of plays out. there are A LOT of new mandos being built today....FAR FAR more than in the decades past. this is GREAT for the mandolin community and for the builders too. it will just be time that shows if the added supply outweighs demand....
one of my strong theories is that the acoustic music revival will continue and grow, as older baby boomers (and gen x/y'ers) come to realize at the age of 40-60ish that they no longer care to hear loud rock music and discover that lugging all that #### around to play is really no fun. A lot of 'electric' musicans i know who are now getting older have said 'scr#w it' - i dont like the hassle, the volume levels, the scene anymore - and they find playing acoustic music with friends more enjoyable. when i go into the dedicated ACOUSTIC shops, i see your average guy who likes to sit down in the evenings and enjoys playing for his own therapy and enjoyment. they are just at a point where THAT provides them the most enjoyment - and they have the MONEY to get the best......and as others have said, there comes a point (usually AFTER you have owned the boat, the bike, the 'toys') - that one realizes that music is more enjoyable....and less hassle.
Econ 101 stuff. No matter how much <insert item here> is being offered for sale, if the demand for <insert item here> is higher than supply. The <insert itme here>s won't stay on the market long and prices will stay up.
That being said if the used mandolin market is good then the new owners of a new mando who have an old mando to dispose of are more predisposed to sell it them self rather than trade it in because they can unload it now and get more for it. My guess is most used mandos are being sold privately. Suggestion, get to know a lot of mando players. When you get an inkling one of them is looking to upgrade, tell them, "Don't sell your old one without talking to me."
"If you've got time to breathe, you've got time for music," Briscoe Darling
I don't see as being that easy. I see it more as people buying or ordering a new mandolin with the intention of selling another. Kind of like buying on margin.
Thus increasing the amount of used mandolins making that market a buyer's market instead of a seller's market. If this happens to the used market it will in turn slow down the new market.
an over exagerated example would be if everyone on this site would go out and buy or order a custom mandolin today with the assumption we could all sell our current mandolins for a fair market value. You would see alot of mandolins not selling in the classifieds or on ebay.
Daryl
I think that mandolins fall within certain marketing levels. For example; entry level, low end, middle, high end, luxury and collectible. I don't think that you can characterize the market as a whole, but I would say that two years ago the entry and low end level was on fire. Now, those that stuck with the instrument are beginning to upgrade to the next level. I would suspect that most of them are holding onto their low end stuff as a beater mando. To me, there isn't much of a market for the low end used instrument, so there isn't much of a financial gain to be had to warrant selling it. I think most of the people buying into the mid range level are doing so by purchasing it outright. Those that are already in that range, but are wanting something different, seem to be selling to finance their newest purchase. They are moving laterally as opposed to upwards.
I believe the greatest growth in new and used mando sales over the next couple years will fall in the middle range, instruments selling between $2200-$3500. There are an awful lot of people on 1-3 year waiting lists that will be looking to sell their current midrange instrument to finance the new one, and a lot of low end owners ready to snap them up to upgrade. Just my opinion.
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