Play for free ...

[allenhopkins]

Some quotes:

A columnist in Sing Out! magazine: "It's hard to make a living doing something that lots of people are willing to do for free."

A mandolinist who just won $2 million in a lottery, asked about his future plans: "I guess I'll just keep playing until that's gone too."

My old Murphy's Law calendar: "Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you can do it for a living."

[Austin Bob]

Folks, it could be worse. Bowling is one of the most popular recreational activities out there, but very very few make a living. Quick, name three pro bowlers? Ok, just one? If you drop below 25th place, your earnings fall below 50K. Hardly rock star money.

My brother in law is a very good bowler, he has bowled two 300 games in his lifetime and averages around 230 or so in league play on a good year. He plays one day a week on average, and occasionally gets an extra practice day in, but work and family keep him busy.

If he was that good in golf, he could be a pro at some country club somewhere and make a semi decent living teaching rich folks how to play golf.

No one wants to pay to watch bowling, so almost no one makes a decent wage.

Yep, it's the economy.

[jim simpson]

I remember the great bowler Earl Anthony. He sported a cool flat-top for many years.

[Jeff Mando]

Kingpin movie -- Bill Murray & Woody Harrelson

[Astro]

Yea its much harder to get paid bowling. I've tried it in numerous bars and got thrown out of every one. Never even got a tip.

[dhergert]

Can you even bowl in a bar? (I'm ignorant, I don't drink.)

[Astro]

Can you even bowl in a bar? (I'm ignorant, I don't drink.)

Yes of course but you have to set up your own pins. And usually you only get one frame in so you have to make it count.

[Mandobart]

Can you even bowl in a bar? (I'm ignorant, I don't drink.)

No, but you have to drink in a bowling alley.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Folks, it could be worse. Bowling is one of the most popular recreational activities out there, but very very few make a living. . . .

Man, that's one of the only three sports I've ever watched all the way through on TV. That and roller derby and the Kentucky Derby. (Hm. The Brits call derbies bowlers. Coincidence? Cosmic cluster-cluck? You be the judge . . . .)

[Charlie Bernstein]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but I've seen enough to realize that a lot of you are giving it away. Some of us think of this as a problem. . . .

. . . Sure playing on stage can be fun, but I can stay home and watch TV if I want to NOT make money. If I'm overcome by the urge to pick, I'll find someone who wants to jam or pick up an instrument a play by myself.

Thoughtful thoughts. Thanks!

But, if I may point out, watching TV isn't fun. Of course I wish I could make a living playing music, but I'm not that good. I suppose I could sell all my instruments to people who will do them justice, but that's not fun either. They can have 'em when I'm dead!

Or as you say, I could just play in my bedroom. But how much fun is THAT? Getting together with friends to jam is fun, but it's far from enough. (Read: My name is Charlie and I'm a pickaholic.)

Like you and your sister and my sister and most people, I've also struggled to make ends meet. There's always someone who will do what I do for less than what I'll do it for. Life isn't fair. Life is life.

So once a week, I actually PAY to play. Yup. I drive about an hour to a bar I like ($5 for gas), buy a beer ($3.50), leave a tip ($1.50), and wail away with the other folks who go there to pay to play. And if I count my time at minimum wage, that's another $30 or so.

But that's just an old karmic fact of life, right?: Pay to play. No matter what your idea of fun is, one way or another, you pay to play. This way is a lot more straightforward and a lot less painful than some.

So keep on pickin' and kickin'. You're right, the alternatives aren't attractive.

[Austin Bob]

Sorry guys, I wasn't trying to derail the topic, I'm simply pointing out that just because you're good at something doesn't mean you get paid. But in retrospect, it's not a valid comparison as musicians are considered to be entertainment, and bowlers - meh.

[mandroid]

Is playing in a 'Praise band' an in-kind donation to your church, and so, Tax Deductible?

[Charlieshafer]

Is playing in a 'Praise band' an in-kind donation to your church, and so, Tax Deductible?

Eeek... very sticky. What about a choir singer? Just as musically valuable in the life of a church, and if you try deducting that, you'll be spending some time in the pokey. I'd advise against trying that one!

[Loubrava]

Thoughtful thoughts. Thanks!

But, if I may point out, watching TV isn't fun. Of course I wish I could make a living playing music, but I'm not that good. I suppose I could sell all my instruments to people who will do them justice, but that's not fun either. They can have 'em when I'm dead!

Or as you say, I could just play in my bedroom. But how much fun is THAT? Getting together with friends to jam is fun, but it's far from enough. (Read: My name is Charlie and I'm a pickaholic.)

Like you and your sister and my sister and most people, I've also struggled to make ends meet. There's always someone who will do what I do for less than what I'll do it for. Life isn't fair. Life is life.

So once a week, I actually PAY to play. Yup. I drive about an hour to a bar I like ($5 for gas), buy a beer ($3.50), leave a tip ($1.50), and wail away with the other folks who go there to pay to play. And if I count my time at minimum wage, that's another $30 or so.

But that's just an old karmic fact of life, right?: Pay to play. No matter what your idea of fun is, one way or another, you pay to play. This way is a lot more straightforward and a lot less painful than some.

So keep on pickin' and kickin'. You're right, the alternatives aren't attractive.

Pay to play, nothing new there I've read almost all the posts here and agree with em & feel for the "pros" that can't make it or barely scrape by, talented guys/gals who have put in the time have awesome chops but end up with day jobs to make ends meet. The only difference I see in this day and age is there are a lot less places to play then there was 20-30 years ago. In SF they used to do a "pre-sale" at some great clubs where you got booked then had to pre-sell a set number of tickets to your show then you would get a percentage of the gate and bar gross depending on the club. They always had a 1-2 "free" drink for the band. We did 3-4 of those shows and barely made it out of there with gas money the last one we did we had to actually pay the club owner to settle the bar tab that was the last straw for us. A year or 2 later they banned the "pre-sale" thing not sure exactly who "they" were I just read about it in a newspaper and laughed knowing the club owners would find another way to get over on somebody. Now a lot those clubs are gone. i never had the chops/talent or balls to go all in the music biz. but respect the hell out you boys & girls who do.
Now my "band" gets together 2-3 times a month & play for free in a barn. Do a few partys or bar gig once in while & joke about playing for free. We all all feel real lucky to still be making music to us it's not work just having fun. The more things change the more they stay the same.
Lou

[billkilpatrick]

I was once told by someone who worked on Broadway that the casting directors referred to dancers/singers/musicians as "talent" … i.e.: "Thanks, talent we'll let you know" - live performance treated as a commodity. Obviously it would depend on the venue but the attitude expressed in the original post suggests that people who organize events, book bands/artists, etc., may recognize that live music is better than something from out of a can but that doesn't mean they're willing to to pay for it.

[Polecat]

...Some of us think of this as a problem. First off, you're being taken advantage of. It doesn't matter how much you want to get on stage, if you do it for nothing you set a precedent not only for your band and yourself, but create expectations that anyone playing hillbilly (or Celtic, etc.) music should play for free.

More than 40 years of gigging has made me realize that people are, by and large, tone deaf. The typical listener can't discern good songs played well from raw beginners scratching at banjos and mandolins. If you don't think you music has any value, ask yourself why someone wants you to play music for their event or at their business.

With respect, I couldn't disagree more. I often play for what a "professional" musician would regard as a laughable rate - I'm not doing it for the money, but because I (and the audience, usually) regard it as a worthwhile endeavour. I also turn down gigs playing in an environment where the audience are likely to treat our music as wallpaper, as I described earlier - it's a thankless task, and I've known enough embittered professionals not to want to end up that way.

More than 35 years of performing publicly has taught me that far from being tone deaf, if you catch people in the right environment, you can affect an audience deeply, which in turn affects me. You need, to paraphrase Linda Ronstadt "enough technique to achieve what you are setting out to do", so scratching away like a rank beginner will not cut it, equally, only fellow musicians will be impressed if you play "Rawhide" at a breakneck tempo in A flat major - it is important to realize the difference between true musicianship and mere technique.

As regards the value of music, I think Charlie Shafer has put it better than I could:

If you really want to get upset when someone asks you to play for free, maybe it's time to stop worrying about music as a source of income. Money is an illusory reward anyway, whatever you do make, you'll just blow it on something irrelevant.

I think that music (or any art form) is a little like sex - it's fantastic if you do it for love, but if you find yourself compelled to do it for money, you have got a problem.

[Rick Crenshaw]

We never play for free, as it really screws other bands that may/may not need the money. Nothing worse than your local region being saturated with play-for-free bands/musicians.

This.

[Jeff Mando]

Yes to the above and taken to another extreme, I have always felt "professional" musicians were like any other professional -- doctor, lawyer, etc. -- where it has taken years and years of study/practice/education to do what we do. In other words, not everybody can do this! That being said, and I do believe it, I have rarely been treated that well when it comes to getting paid. Like previously stated, many club owners will treat you like the hired help or worse. It has also been stated that there are only two times when a musician gets paid well. One is New Years Eve, when the club recognizes a need for a band and is willing to pay for it, mostly because experience has told them there will be plenty of cash flowing that night. Second is playing a wedding, believe it or not -- mostly because, most fathers-of-the-bride don't realize how little bands are used to working for -- "how much do you guys charge for a wedding? $5000. OK, that will be fine." Treated like the professional I always knew I could be.....

Now, if we could just figure out how to "upscale" those other 363 days in a year!

[Austin Bob]

With respect, I couldn't disagree more. I often play for what a "professional" musician would regard as a laughable rate - I'm not doing it for the money, but because I (and the audience, usually) regard it as a worthwhile endeavour. I also turn down gigs playing in an environment where the audience are likely to treat our music as wallpaper, as I described earlier - it's a thankless task, and I've known enough embittered professionals not to want to end up that way.

The choir I play in has about 15 members on a given Sunday. Over half of us have been together for 18 years. That's a long time, and you get pretty tight after that long.

I've been told more times than I can count that our ministry brought great joy/tears/hope/remembrance of those who have passed, etc. People will come up after the mass with tears in their eyes and thank us with all their hearts.

That kind of pay is worth more than any pittance I could get in a band. And yes, the congregation (audience) listens.

My point is that if trying to play for money is not getting anywhere for you, find another way to use your music to benefit others. You don't have to be in a choir, you can play for the elderly, schools, teach kids, etc. Perhaps the payback will be worth it.

[Polecat]

My point is that if trying to play for money is not getting anywhere for you, find another way to use your music to benefit others. You don't have to be in a choir, you can play for the elderly, schools, teach kids, etc. Perhaps the payback will be worth it.

Not perhaps, definitely!!

[Folkmusician.com]

Obviously there are lot's of different venues, but I believe it is fair to say that most are driven at least partially (if not fully) by food and beverage sales. So me, being me. I had to do some quick searching…

Approximately 80 percent of nightclubs will falter and go out of business in their first year, according to the National Club Industry Association of America. Bars fare somewhat better because customers’ focus more on drinking than dancing. Drinking means revenue and dancing means cost, because you have to pay the DJ or band to keep the party going. If you can get past the first-year hurdle, Entrepreneur indicates that you can reasonably expect a return on your overall investment in three to five years.

So no return for 3-5 years and an 80% chance of failure in your first year. Now industry statics say you have a better chance of success with limited entertainment. This isn't owners being greedy, it is survival.

The average consumer orders 2.3 drinks per occasion with males ordering more than females and Millennials ordering more than the older consumers. (Apparently this has actually declined).

The industry standard is 400-500% markup with the exception of happy hour and specials.
So lets say average small bar, selling domestic beer at $4.00. To keep it simple, lets say the beer cost is $1. Making the average customer worth less than $7 gross profit.

The industry is extremely labor-intensive: average annual revenue per worker is $60,000.

For reference:
Google and Facebook, the two most efficient companies, generate $1M per revenue per employee per year. Setting aside those exceptional cases and focusing instead on SaaS companies, the typical average revenue per employee is about $190k to $210k per year.

Other industries: 2015
Oil (268) = $1,271,251
Utility Services (194) = $549,288
Financial Services (726) = $548,464
Health Care (226) = $463,456
Basic Materials (442) = $440,658
Autos & Trucks (134) = $423,382
Telecom (121) = $421,770
Food & Agriculture (268) = $327,839
Construction (233) = $321,662
Technology (265) = $311,790
Industrials (458) = $300.074
Retailers & Wholesalers (401) = $284,727
Transportation (206) = $248,941
Consumer Goods & Services (342) = $172,278
Business Services (261) = $154,404

For a neighborhood bar or a nightclub, the labor operating cost benchmark ranges from 18 percent to 24 percent. For a bar inside a restaurant the operating cost benchmark is approximately 30 percent.

I don't know how tips are factored into this, so that could skew things.

Depending on the menu and pricing strategy, the cost benchmark for food items ranges from about 29 percent to 32 percent of total food sales. I also assume this is more labour intensive than drinks.

Anytime a band brings more people in, expenses climb as well. Security being one. If someone gets hurt fighting, or whatever, and the venue did not provide adequate security, we know what happens. And it is very possibly considered negligence and the insurance company may recover any losses. I know of this happening on more than one occasion. One involved someone getting ran over in the parking lot and paralyzed. This wasn't some rowdy night. A fight was started by a Wedding Party. The bar had a band playing and should have foreseen the need for more security.

I don't know all the expenses involved with a bar, but just looking at these basic numbers, we see that it could easily be 75% of gross revenue. A band is going to have to bring in a significants amount of extra business to give any type of ROI. More likely the band will be a loss.

Let's say $100 per man with a 4 piece band. The band needs to bring in an additional $1600 in gross sales to break even. One customer drinking domestic beer is worth $9.20 ($4 x 2.3 drinks). 25% profit = $2.30. $1600/2.3 = 696 customers! Now say these numbers are way off and the bar nets double per customer at $4.60. Now we only need 348 customers. And this is above and beyond the customers that would have been there had the band not been booked. Customers probably drink more than average on nights with bands (just an assumption), and we know some are ordering more expensive drinks, etc.. So let's double net profits one more time! So let's give a full $9.20 net profit per customer. This 4 piece band now has to bring in an additional 174 customers for the club to break even. 174 customers should be doable, but simply breaking even is not enough if the club is going to consider having bands on a regular basis.

I think it is quite clear why venues are not paying. It is extremely difficult to get a return on a band. I imagine most clubs are well aware that they are taking a loss on the entertainment and considering it a marketing cost. This only goes so far though. If this marketing doesn't create a large loyal clientele that regularly comes and spends money, it doesn't make sense to have entertainment at all.

Let me be clear, that I don't like the situation. I would love to see more support of musicians, but anytime things get tough, entertainment is going to be the first to go, since it has a very low ROI.

I don't doubt that there are owners taking advantage of bands, but I also don't believe these owners are raking in profits at the bands expense. The number just don't add up.

Single biggest thing to take a toll on paying gigs. Tightening DUI laws. I am sure most all of us agree that these are good and highly needed, but it also took a major toll on bars/clubs and even restaurants. It was the beginning of the end for the heyday of live music.

I can't imagine that this same basic math doesn't apply to farmers markets, festivals, or virtually anyplace that might have live music that is funded by some type of sales.

[Charlieshafer]

Wow, excellent research, Robert. This is the conclusion I've been coming to for some time, and have been working with younger musicians with for the past 5-6 years now. The days of the local gigs are over. There are a number of ways to get your music out there that pay, but they're unconventional. But in terms of a gigging band, you either tour or you're just background music playing for chump change at best. To tour, your chops have to be first-rate, and that's up to today's standards. The market is being flooded not just by Berklee, East Tennessee, or Belmont grads, but by classical conservatory grads who find that playing string band/bluegrass music is more fun. From the looks of the average age of poster in this thread, there's no way 50+ year old fingers are keeping up with top-notch 20 year old fingers.

While there's a movement among artists, started mostly by the likes of Jayme Stone or Ruth Ungar of The Mammals, to book their own tours, it takes years of touring to get to know how to do this and who to contact. So you need a good agent, that simple. And good agents are reluctant to sign "baby bands" because they're tough to get placed, and because they command a lower fee, there's less of a percentage for the agent. So they're less profitable and tougher to book. Top that off with what usually happens: after the two year mark, and they haven't hit the Grand Old Opry or City Winery (going old-school or hipster, here) they assume it's the agent's fault and switch agencies. They start to get going, but they don't realize that the first agent laid all the groundwork for their success, and that it takes a good three years to get off the ground. So all that work for little money, and the initial agent is left not only with a former client who is probably dissing them, but is missing out on the profits of all the hard work they put in.

So don't be surprised, if you don't have a really good track record, or good internet buzz, if you don't get an agent. And that is why, all you old-timers who don;t get the internet, you need Youtube hits. When ANYONE, either an agent or a venue, is looking to book someone, the FIRST THING WE DO IS LOOK AT YOUTUBE HITS!! Get it? Few hits means a tough sell. Many thousands of hits means more built-in recognition and more potential ticket buyers, and more income, and less risk. This is why the social media departments at any label are humming. Kids down in Nashville at Belmont in music marketing courses make extra money from record labels just tweeting and instagramming bits about all the up and coming artists the labels want to succeed. It's all about hits. Facebook videos of shows that audience members put up. When I hear about unknown bands that don't want their performances recorded and posted, I cringe. Just give up now. It has nothing to do with video or sound quality, it's all about number of hits, number of videos, number of links, hashtags, all that. Name recognition is the new thing.

So there you go, some free marketing advice. But for one last time, if you actually think you're getting pushed out of gigs by bands playing for free, you need to find better venues. The old venues don't want you anymore. Period. Stop lamenting the old days. If better, performing-arts style venues don't want you, then maybe a career choice is in the offing. It's an unforgiving business. You gotta remember the great quote from one of the top agents in the music business from years ago. When his assistant rushed in and told him that Elvis had just died, he just looked up and said, totally straight-faced, "Good career move." And he was right.

[Jeff Mando]

Robert -- you lost me, buddy, when you described a business that works on a 400-500 percent markup! Buy a beer for a buck and resell it for $4 bucks. Do that hundreds and hundreds of times a night. Kinda hard for me to feel sorry for the bar! Sounds like a license to print money. I say "share" some of that windfall with the band, for Pete's sakes! Kinda like when I find an underpriced instrument at a pawn shop and buy it -- I don't feel real sorry for the pawn shop, their job is to KNOW what stuff is worth. In fact, I feel happy -- for myself!!!

We played a bar every Wednesday for about a year and a half. We got $50 a man and it was a blast. I found out years later the bar wasn't paying us -- turns out the female bartender was paying us out of HER TIPS! I guess she must have been making $500 a night in tips. Thanks, Michelle!

My point being, even some of these tiny old fashioned bars still pull in some real money. Hard to take the bar's side of the argument, IMHO........

[Austin Bob]

Excellent post Robert! While the numbers may be different for some areas of the country, the logic is spot on. You did however omit the liquor license, which can be very expensive in some areas.

Bands HAVE to provide a return on investment. If you pay a band $400 and the sales go up $400, that is NOT a break even point. If you're interested, here's a good read on the costs of opening and running a bar. If you do well, you can expect to break even in two years.

[CarlM]

The point of competition is to rise above competitors by offering more than they can offer to the people who pay for the product. If a person is doing music full time, they have time to discover and cultivate those things to offer. I'd suggest that is the solution.

Perhaps it's a simple case of missing the boat in terms of how you make a living in music now. But, as I said before, the skill level of the younger players is now so much higher than the generation before, I find it very difficult to book the older players and expect an audience to show up like they would for some of the younger, more original and skilled players. There's just not the excitement level for the same old stuff anymore.

Respectfully I will say, that while I do not know Warren personally, I have heard him play and do personally know some of the people he has performed with. And again respectfully, realizing that you probably do not know the people involved, but if you did you might be a little embarrassed to say these things. One banjo player has toured and recorded with legendary players on groundbreaking recordings and tours including at least one prominent desert island recording. One fiddler, who Warren has performed with regularly is one of the most respected fiddlers in the Missouri - Iowa tradition and has recorded in Nashville with prominent artists. Warren plays at a level with those kind of players. It is certainly not a case of not competing or younger players having better chops.

These guys do often play for the "tens of dollars" gigs and benefits. And they do love the music. And times have changed with younger audiences going to watch younger players, some who play great music and others who play loud to cover up but play a certain "style"..

I think everyone recognizes that with an audience of fifteen or twenty people that there is not $500 to pay the band without failing the business. We all know venue owners who love the music and do everything they can to support it without putting themselves in bankruptcy. We also all know venue owners who whine about thin margins and plead poverty while going home to a new 5000 square foot house on ten acres in their second new SUV to plan their vacation. That money comes from somewhere too. The musician is lectured about greed and not focusing on the money but tell that to a business owner and they will squeal.

There has to be fair dealing for all parties. Sometimes the money just is not there then the musician has the option to cut the venue some slack but at a certain point it comes down get paid or don't eat if that is how you make your living.

Aside from that there is a place for things like open mics in places that also pay for real bands on other nights. They serve as a place to serve a kind of apprenticeship, to try out things, to learn performing. Otherwise how do you learn it? And there is a place for low pay/ tip only gigs at things like public farmers markets where probably most of the vendors are there as much for fun as profit, public senior dances and the like where no one is making any money. But public, profit making venues should pay fairly for services rendered and not expect others to subsidize their profit margin. If they cannot then maybe their business is not viable.