Tone rite

[Explorer]

There are definitely those who believe vibration makes changes the sound of an instrument over time. Among those who have gone on record as having heard such changes over the life of an instrument, and even more dramatically in the period when an instrument is being played for the first time, are Roger Siminoff, Ervin Somogyi, Bob Taylor, Big Joe Vest, Bruce Weber and Bill Collings.

Me? On the matter of instruments opening up, I have no reason to doubt the ears of those folks, or to think they all just happened to get it wrong in the one place with which someone has a philosophical.

Unfortunately, this post is filled with so much innuendo and misrepresentation that it should not be left unchallenged. No one on the MC, to my knowledge, has ever accused Roger Siminoff, Ervin Somogyi, Bob Taylor, Big Joe Vest, Bruce Weber and Bill Collings of "deliberately lying" with respect to this phenomenon.
...That said, it might be worth pointing out that at least some of these individuals -- Roger Siminoff, for example -- are (or were; Roger is retired now) actually in the business of offering a professional "de-damping" service for a fee, so they stood to gain something monetarily. Caveat emptor. That doesn't mean they're wrong or lying, only that they may have a conflict of interest that you should consider.

I had someone point out to me that I should clarify why there's only a few options on two points.

Each of the individuals I listed, and many more, have gone on the record about having heard the changes. (I had listed Bill Collings and Bob Taylor, and it was interesting to see sblock mention guitars from another fellow in his post, Chris Martin, who also has gone on record about "opening up" being an observable phenomenon.)

First, there are only two possibilities that would lead to them saying they heard the phenomenon of opening up:

• They believe they heard something.
• They *know* they didn't hear something, and are therefore lying when they say they did.

If they did hear something, there's two possibilities:

• "Opening up" genuinely exists as a phenomenon.
• All those experts in instrument construction got it wrong in that one place where they disagree with the one person's opinion.

The only two possibilities which allow those individuals to go on record and say they heard something *without* it existing are:

• The ears and expertise which have resulted in decades of top instruments just got this one wrong.
• They deliberately lied about having heard something when they know they didn't, possibly for a profit motive.

When sblock mentions that "they may have a conflict of interest which you should consider," and "they had something to gain" by claiming they heard something which they didn't, that certainly fits that last one. Additionally, sblock employed innuendo to get there.

Really, when challenging a claim, one shouldn't give support to that claim at the same time. That seems obvious.

----

As to why the instrument plots differ from one plot to plot over time, and whether a "statistically insignificant" variation in decibels is inaudible or not, it would seem impossible to state with confidence. In fact, in reading the study I discovered that the researchers don't dismiss the changes evident in the plot as insignificant as sblock has.

I do find it interesting that while this study concludes that the Tonerite didn't affect tone.

However, even the investigators note the following, starting the last paragraph at the bottom on page 8: "Interestingly, subtle but significant changes are also observed for the guitars before and after treatment. However, these changes were essentially the same whether or not the guitar was subjected to the vibration treatment. So these differences are due either to the small amount of playing during the player trials (about 1-2 hours total), the passage of time (about three months), the changing of weather from late summer to fall in Palo Alto, or irreproducibility of our measurement method. ...Hence it is likely that the changes in frequency response function represent a real change. However, there is no significant difference between the effects of the control treatment and the vibration treatment." They observed instruments changing over time, possibly due to playing time.

I agree that this study shows no evidence of the Tonerite affecting the instruments. However, it does possibly provide evidence of instruments changing over time, and (strangely enough, as noted by the researchers) of that change being consistent.

That actually does nothing to rule out the idea that the people I mentioned (and numerous others), who have gone on record as having heard an instrument "opening up," actually heard the phenomenon. Even your chosen study shows "significant changes," and given your endorsement of the researcher's independence, that rules out questioning his fiduciary incentives in his findings.

Interesting study, incidentally.

[sblock]

I'm glad to learn that you "agree that this study shows no evidence of the Tonerite affecting the instruments." Woohoo -- we do agree about something, after all! That's progress, in my opinion.

Whether a ToneRite improves the tone of an instrument is, after all, is the subject of this thread. It is not about "opening up." In fact, I believe that you were the one to introduce all this extra discussion about "opening up." I certainly didn't. When you discuss opening up and ToneRite effects (or lack thereof), you are conflating potentially different phenomena, and muddying the waters.

You also note that "it does possibly provide evidence of instruments changing over time, and (strangely enough, as noted by the researchers) of that change being consistent." Yup. I think we pretty much all agree that the sound of an instrument can and does change over time. It certainly changes with the seasonal humidity (on a fairly rapid time scale of weeks to months), and there are also long-term ageing affects in woods, varnishes, and glues (on a time scale of years). These things are pretty well documented. But these particular changes are not necessarily (or even likely) correlated with playing the instrument. And they don't necessarily result in the instrument always sounding better. Sometimes, the instrument can sound worse.

I don't want to get involved in another protracted debate about whether "opening up" due solely to playing is a real phenomenon. We all know your position on this. I remain a skeptic.

But irrespective of whether you believe in "opening up" on a long time scale -- and the possibly related but different phenomenon of "waking up" on a short time scale -- the point here is that ToneRites don't substitute for any of these things, because they don't seem to work.

[Explorer]

I'm glad to learn that you "agree that this study shows no evidence of the Tonerite affecting the instruments." Woohoo -- we do agree about something, after all! That's progress, in my opinion.

But irrespective of whether you believe in "opening up" on a long time scale -- and the possibly related but different phenomenon of "waking up" on a short time scale -- the point here is that ToneRites don't substitute for any of these things, because they don't seem to work.

I agreed that this one study shows no evidence. I'm hopeful we can both agree that more studies would help reinforce that, as opposed to concluding something is proven from one study (as your last sentence could be read as implying).

[sblock]

As a scientist, I could hardly disagree with the proposition that more high-quality data are always better! So YES, we agree. Now, back to my practicing...

[Timbofood]

Isn't playing the fun part of listening to an instrument whether or not they really "open up" or not. I am in the open up through personal interaction not any kind of mechanical inducement. It's cheaper too!

[dhergert]

I once listened to a guitarist theorize that the opening-up phenomenon that some artists demonstrate with their instruments isn't from playing hour after hour, but rather is from driving thousands of miles from gig to gig. The variety of vibrations and the variety of temperatures and humidity levels that the instrument absorbs were suggested as being the key.

I'm not suggesting this is either fact or fiction, but just another theory.

Personally, when I'm not playing it, I put my mandolin on top of the washing machine while washing my bib overalls.

[MontanaMatt]

Isn't playing the fun part of listening to an instrument whether or not they really "open up" or not. I am in the open up through personal interaction not any kind of mechanical inducement. It's cheaper too!

I borrowed a Tonerite, so my cost was the handful of nickels for seven days use...plus postage, as my friend that lent the device lives 140 miles away.

[Mike Snyder]

There was a short lived exchange of a traveling toneright maybe 5 or 6 years ago. A dealer in Florida provided the machine and a user list was grown on the cafe. I had it on my Gibson for about 72 hours. For the price of postage to the next guy, a bargain. I liked it.

[HoGo]

Like in the few previous threads I'll add view of a maker.
When I finish building mandolin I certainly hear some breaking in period - meaning the tone changes after first tringing the changes are more dramatic at first and become less and less audible after few hours. In a week or so the instrument settles and the changes are no longer large enough for me to hear. I string the instruments in white and let them settle and again after finishing and finish curing (can take me few months) I can hear it again though not as evident as during the first stringing.
I could hear it (though even less evident and settles in few hours) on instruments that were without strings for longer period of time during repairs.
I would describe that the change during first few hours is as large as change of next day and then next 10 days and then next few months etc.
BUT I cannot claim there will be any more changes after that initial breaking and VERY slow (and decreasing) changes afterward. I have opportunity to play and inspect few of my instruments once a year or two and I cannot hear any significant changes (other than result of new strings, setup, or climate changes...) on any of them though owners often believe the instruments are developing this or that quality. Human hearing is so subjective and unreliable so I never tell them anything against their belief, I mostly suspect thay are still improving in their technique and inconsciously found way of getting more out of the box....
Regarding the vibrational devices I believe there is quite a bit of placebo effect going on and some of the proponents used them on brand new instruments and I think the vibrations WILL speed up the initial breaking period (ever heard of vibrating welded steel constructions for faster stress relieving?) so changes can be dramatic in such cases, but I doubt vibrating instrument that has been played for decade(s) will introduce more change than just weather (or miserable human hearing) can within the same time frame (that's roughly what the study cited above claims).
From other perspective you can see that the bubble of the devices is all but gone these days, few years back they were discussed regularly and bold claims were made (often by folks that offered the devices or rented tem) but now you see question bout the devices once a six months or so... The trend moved on and there are new things that are IN, like torrefied wood etc...

[fscotte]

You can't recall how an instrument sounds, but you can recall how it made you feel. That's how you know if an instrument has changed tonally. I'm sure some of us has had a mando that used to make us feel "meh", but now it makes us feel "yay"! I couldn't tell you what changed tonally, but I can tell you that the mando I used to like, now I love. My playing never got better, probably worse cause I used to play more. But my old Gibson reminds me daily, why Gibsons sound so good. It was never like that for the first 3 years of its life.

[DHopkins]

I think it works and there are many others, including professionals who have been in the business for many years, who think it works. Your study intimates that we don't know what we're talking about. I don't care. I'm still gonna use it.

[sblock]

I think it works and there are many others, including professionals who have been in the business for many years, who think it works. Your study intimates that we don't know what we're talking about. I don't care. I'm still gonna use it.

You are entitled to believe anything that you want! But you need to realize that your firmly-held belief may, or may not, be factually correct! That said, you are certainly wrong about at least one thing: the study published by Bruce Clemens, et al., doesn't "intimate" whether you do, or you don't, "know what you are talking about." It simply reaches a conclusion that happens to be different from yours.

This is nothing personal. You should not interpret Prof. Clemens' disagreement with your opinion as some kind of attack on your integrity or sincerity: it's not. This is a forum for reasoned discussion, no?

[DHopkins]

It said it doesn't work. I think it does. Fancy wording notwithstanding. it says I'm wrong.

I'm getting out of this thread. I'm not about to get into a "spitting" contest with anyone here.

[Explorer]

It said it doesn't work. I think it does. Fancy wording notwithstanding. it says I'm wrong.

To be fair, the data in that study doesn't show an effect on the Tonerite-treated instruments alone., while it does show other frequency changes on both the treated and untreated instruments.

That's a matter of your beliefs not being supported by that data.

Getting upset by experimental data not supporting a belief, or even feeling insulted by a lack of support for a belief, doesn't make a belief true or the data wrong. There's always a chance to add more data, either replicating the study's results or disproving them, but to say that a study is unacceptable purely because it doesn't fit one's previous beliefs doesn't actually change that the beliefs might be mistaken.

The "spitting contest" you're proposing is purely about the data versus how you think things should be regarding physics. I'm not sure that's even a contest.

I'm sorry you feel that way when confronted with evidence that you might be mistaken, and that seems like a hard road to take, but it is your choice.

[MontanaMatt]

Why has no one pointed out that this is a mando forum, and that guitar drivel (the lone study) belongs on a guitar forum
Let's raise the money and I'll do the study on some sweet high end mandos. I need six brand new mandolins from one awesome builder, maybe Oliver A. or McClannahan... There will be a large amount of empirical and human based data for all to do chi square regressions and confidence intervals...we can recuperate the upfront costs selling,... let's say four of the well broken in test subject! My idea, copyright!

[MontanaMatt]

BTW, I relayed my experience with a fresh mandolin significantly changing with the tonerite treatment. I'm wondering, have the naysayers used it with a green mando? Or are you all grumbling because your not new, previously dedampened mando did not change after riding on the tonerite, and you're sore that what you got is what your stuck with(you can always buy a nicer mando)
I guess that is a bit provocative, but I had to say it

[HoGo]

BTW, I relayed my experience with a fresh mandolin significantly changing with the tonerite treatment. I'm wondering, have the naysayers used it with a green mando? Or are you all grumbling because your not new, previously dedampened mando did not change after riding on the tonerite, and you're sore that what you got is what your stuck with(you can always buy a nicer mando)
I guess that is a bit provocative, but I had to say it

From my experience new fresh mandolins WILL change regardless of what device you hang on it....

[MontanaMatt]

From my experience new fresh mandolins WILL change regardless of what device you hang on it....

Totally agree, my first new mando took a long time to become "non-brittle " and easy playing. Perhaps my current new mando would be in the exactl same place without the tonerite, but it might have time warped me past the waiting game too...

[PiginaPen]

THIS: https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/111544#111544
is why I choose not to use a tone gard.

[sblock]

THIS: https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/111544#111544
is why I choose not to use a tone gard.

You have confused a Tone-Gard with a ToneRite. A Tone-Gard keeps the back of the mandolin off your belly while playing. A ToneRite is a vibrator that attaches to your mandolin and shakes it. Tone-Gards work very well for their intended purpose. ToneRites, as you will see from this thread, are more controversial.

[Bertram Henze]

You have confused a Tone-Gard with a ToneRite. A Tone-Gard keeps the back of the mandolin off your belly while playing. A ToneRite is a vibrator that attaches to your mandolin and shakes it. Tone-Gards work very well for their intended purpose. ToneRites, as you will see from this thread, are more controversial.

The ad in question explicitly mentions a tone guard - damage to back and sides. Now applying a ToneRite to back and sides would open totally new gates to hilarity...

[Chris Daniels]

The ad in question explicitly mentions a tone guard...

With an active thread currently going on for each of the oft-contentious Tone-X products, I'll give the benefit of the doubt that this was simply a matter of cross-posting. At least PiginaPen presents a valid reason (i.e. potential damage) as to why he/she doesn't use the product, a justification that could apply to either.

It's the statement from the ad itself; "I really don't understand why people use those things", that willfully ignores the tens of thousands of words written here at the cafe (some very few my own) explaining exactly why people do use them despite the known risks.

To keep this post in the spirit of the topic at hand, I'm skeptical of the ToneRite but am open to the idea that it might have a long term benefit if eventually proven. Don't plan on buying or using one though, so my opinion is certainly of no benefit whatsoever.

C.

[MontanaMatt]

I found it refreshing to see that the fantastic picker, and featured Monday Mando picker, Alan Bibey, is a Tone Rite and Tone Guard endorser. He has the tone and knows how to get it!

[MontanaMatt]

I wanted to again drag up the issue that "The Study" was on guitars! How can your strong science background(sblock) let you espouse inferences about mando tone, placebo effect, consumer gullibility, etc. based on non mando research?

And again I want to volunteer to run a real mando study.
My CV includes a first tier peer reviewed publication (Journal of Economic Entomology), almost ten years of research in a GLP laboratory, 15 years of mando picking, and twelve years of professional Bluegrass playing in The Bridger Creek Boys.

[Explorer]

I wanted to again drag up the issue that "The Study" was on guitars! How can your strong science background(sblock) let you espouse inferences about mando tone, placebo effect, consumer gullibility, etc. based on non mando research?

I'm curious.

What factors, in your view, prevent data regarding wooden tops on plucked-string fretted instruments from being relevant to other similar plucked-string fretted instruments?

If you've been involved in the sciences, you should know that in deductive reasoning, one knows that if something is true of a class, then it is true of all members of a class. I think normally it's stated as the syllogism, All men are Mortal, Socrates is a man, Therefore Socrates is mortal.

If you are arguing that it is unreasonable for luthiers, players, and even the makers of the Tonerite to view wood-top plucked-string musical instruments as one class, I'm happy to hear why you believe the Tonerite is being falsely advertised as being equally appropriate to them all.

Of course, that shifts your proposed argument quite a bit, and requires strong evidence to support your claim, that mandolins and guitars are sufficiently dissimilar that luthiers over the centuries have wrongly classed them together in terms of function and working mechanisms. I look forward to seeing that evidence, because otherwise you seem to be cherry-picking one very small point without supporting your broader required foundational claim regarding instrument principles. That lack of evidence will be disappointing, given how strongly you've been claiming the point.