Tone rite

[MontanaMatt]

The lack of evidence is disappointing, thus my picking at the point that one study on a mechanically dissimilar device is not a compendium of info. If you think a study of carbon fiber behavior done on flat sheets can yield accurate deductive results for the whole class of items made from carbon fiber, please don't build my race car. The fact that strings, wood, and frets are shared doesn't make a guitar equal or even similar to a mando or fiddle. Arched and graduated woods are not the same as "thickness sanded" plates. The compression of a graduated mando or fiddle top is obviously behaving in a very different manner than the torqued upward load of the guitar.

As for the marketing scheme, that is an obvious one, you can't prove false advertising and deception, since there is not conclusive results, they market to everyone, as profit is obviously a strong motivation.

BTW, if we want to talk about science n=6, or 60 is a ridiculously small sample size for statistical analysis.
Additionally, the study admitted that they couldn't accurately replicate strumming, so they used a hammer strike for generating data...really. Hammer used to evaluate tonal response...really.
Each of their citations for methodology was from guitar work.
They concluded that perhaps the long term effect of playing might impart a beneficial change over time...
One week of Tonerite is equivalent to a full year of gigs vibrations for a busy musician......is it the vibrations or time making the changes?
A Tonerite imparts a lot of energy into the mandolin, not sure how they concluded that the force is a small fraction of picking force.

I was dubious when I tried the treatment on my new mando, I'm a believer after hearing the results. Humans do have acute senses, even if they are easily fooled.

One thing I do know, apples ain't oranges, thus my previous comment that the guitar study belongs on a guitar forum and we need to collectively commission me to do a mando only study, and upon further consideration I want to greatly expand my proposed sample size for the study to 100 awesome mandolins. We'll sell all the Tonerites and 95 of the aged and mechanically aged mandolins at the conclusion of my work, thus recouping the costs. Brilliant! Any investors interested?

[William Smith]

Never used one but when I was a kid my Grandpappy who built mandolins and a few guitars, not the best but he had caveman tools/or made the tool he needed for the job, he didn't have much $$$, 1 good eye, lost one to diabetes we built a Martin bone Kit together, he built one previous for himself he swore that you should put your new instruments in a closet and crank up the tunes to break em in! a tonrite vibrates right so same concept. But I'm ONE of THOSE people who believes the more ya play em the better and they do fall asleep after a long period of non usage!

[Explorer]

MontanaMatt, you again are claiming that it is wrong to treat guitars and mandolins as operating under the same principles, even though those principles are successfully taught to and employed by luthiers for centuries. The evidence disproves that claim of yours.

You also claim that the exception to the principles which should be kept separate is the Tonerite.

You need to prove your first claim, and to disprove the centuries of understood basic instrument operation principles, before you then engage in whatever special pleading you'll need to carve out your claimed Tonerite exception.

Saying that a Macintosh and a Winesap can't be compared because the Winesap is actually an orange is obviously silly, because both are apples. Similarly, an acoustic guitar and an acoustic mandolin share characteristics in the same way.

Arguing against evidence while providing none for one's central argument would be embarrassing for most who are involved in actual science. I look forward to seeing if you continue to ignore your claims' central failings, and shudder to think of paying someone for shoddy reasoning in the sciences.

[MontanaMatt]

Apples, ha, good one. Uh, my point is that the assumption of equivalency is a mistake, as much so a saying a guitar behaves like a fiddle acoustically. Nope. And it's not the absence of frets causing that difference, they are different machines. Additionally, the string imparts a different waveform of energy to the instrument vs a hammer strike on the bridge. Is not the issue of discussion damping and dedamping of newly assembled instruments?

Scientific discourse doesn't require counter evidence when methodologies are criticized and false equivalences revealed. Seems reasonable, not shoddy.
The ancient luthiers attended witch burnings and used lots of leeches...are we sure we trust that a guitar and a mandolin are identical in form, function, and physics? Strum sticks ain't working like a Stradivarius.

[JeffD]

Could something that doesn't appear to make much difference on a guitar make a more significant difference on a mandolin? Of course it could. Lots of little things make a bigger difference on the mandolin than one would expect with only guitar experience.

That doesn't invalidate or call into question the study, or anything, its just another thing to keep in mind when generalizing from the specific.

[Timbofood]

Jeff wins.

[JeffD]

A couple of other questions seem to loom large, and largely unaddressed -

Is the tone rite effect (assuming there is one) really accomplishing the same thing as playing the instrument hard and long? Assuming it is eventually found to be doing something, is it the right thing?

And secondly, a question that someone brought up years ago that really shook up the place - can a mandolin get "played out", in other words the opposite of opening up, after years of hard playing, becoming less responsive due to some kind of fatigue. Strings can sure, and we replace them, but what about the rest of the instrument.

The reason this second question is interesting is because if there is any validity to the idea, it implies there are a finite number of "good vibrations" and one might not want to artificially use them up with a tone rite or similar device.

[JeffD]

Setting aside the bickering, and the SIWOTI effect (Someone Is Wrong On The Internet), I do genuinely find this topic interesting. I know a few old fiddlers who store their fiddles against their stereo speakers.

[Billkwando]

Setting aside the bickering, and the SIWOTI effect (Someone Is Wrong On The Internet), I do genuinely find this topic interesting. I know a few old fiddlers who store their fiddles against their stereo speakers.

I've known folks who did this with guitars. I joked in another thread that all the dremeling I did to install the endpin jack on my Loar LM-310 (with the strings still on) should probably help it open up nicely, and probably put years of playing on it!

[Bertram Henze]

Setting aside the bickering, and the SIWOTI effect (Someone Is Wrong On The Internet), I do genuinely find this topic interesting. I know a few old fiddlers who store their fiddles against their stereo speakers.

I think we are just comfortable with a topic we have written down our opinions on so often that we have them well figured out and memorized.

[JeffD]

I think we are just comfortable with a topic we have written down our opinions on so often that we have them well figured out and memorized.

Probably some truth to that.

[Mark Gunter]

It seems to me that if overmuch playing and the resulting vibrations over time might somehow physically alter a stringed instrument in such a way as to improve its acoustic response, well, that same overmuch playing over time has the potential to simultaneously improve the skill and musicality of the player by virtue of both play and practice, perhaps in such a way as to grow and age the player in positive ways in synch with the instrument ... and if that were the case, what would be the reason for a mechanical device used to approximate the effects of overmuch playing? To grow and mature the instrument while the player remains idle?

IDK, seems to me I have other things to spend my money on, and a lot of mandolin-learnin' to do, y'all can keep the tonerite

"Dude, that's a sweet mandolin, and seems well broken in and opened up!"

"Yeah, man, that tonerite has paid its dues."

[Billkwando]

It seems to me that if overmuch playing and the resulting vibrations over time might somehow physically alter a stringed instrument in such a way as to improve its acoustic response, well, that same overmuch playing over time has the potential to simultaneously improve the skill and musicality of the player by virtue of both play and practice, perhaps in such a way as to grow and age the player in positive ways in synch with the instrument ... and if that were the case, what would be the reason for a mechanical device used to approximate the effects of overmuch playing? To grow and mature the instrument while the player remains idle?

IDK, seems to me I have other things to spend my money on, and a lot of mandolin-learnin' to do, y'all can keep the tonerite

"Dude, that's a sweet mandolin, and seems well broken in and opened up!"

"Yeah, man, that tonerite has paid its dues."

Hahaha, nice. By that rationale, people can stop buying old Gibsons and get a nice new mandolin that will "grow with them".

[Bertram Henze]

"Dude, that's a sweet mandolin, and seems well broken in and opened up!"

"Yeah, man, that tonerite has paid its dues."

The main point why I don't understand this whole thing. It's a bit like marrying and having a robot make your wife happy...

[Billkwando]

The main point why I don't understand this whole thing. It's a bit like marrying and having a robot make your wife happy...

While some folks would undoubtedly be into that, it's really not the same thing.

It's more like, as I said previously, buying a vintage instrument instead of a new one. Why else do you think most people buy vintage instruments when new ones are typically so much cheaper?

I think the Tonerite is simply seen, by the people who buy it (both literally and figuratively) to be a way to quickly "vintage-ize" their instruments.

[JeffD]

I think the Tonerite is simply seen, by the people who buy it (both literally and figuratively) to be a way to quickly "vintage-ize" their instruments.

My take is a little different. I think many folks are just impatient to get the great sounds expected once the instrument "opens up". I think its impatience.

[Willie Poole]

I have owned quite a few mandolins and "most" of them did sound better as they aged ..BUT I have had two that seemed to sound worse the more they were played...Back in the days when we didn`t know as much about set ups as we do now could be the reason but I still have one of them and it seems that nothing that I do helps it get back to the original sound that it had for the first 5-6 years that I owned it...Probably one of the reasons is that maybe some builders use wood that isn`t aged and completely dried out...

And a lot of it is the weather on a given day, some days they sound great then on another day they sound like they are losing something...It will drive you nutty if you let it, just play them and hope for the best...

Willie

[Billkwando]

My take is a little different. I think many folks are just impatient to get the great sounds expected once the instrument "opens up". I think its impatience.

No you're definitely right, but the "vintage" thing was the easiest way I could think of to articulate it.

I don't think our takes are dissimilar. I do still think that many folks buy vintage because of the perceived "pre-opened" factor, the assumption being that an old instrument will have had plenty of time to open up, and I do still think that at least some of the folks who purchase the tonerite are hoping that it will suddenly turn their instrument into a 1920s Gibson.....but yes, impatience is certainly the likely main motivator. I like to over-complicate things sometimes.

...and then there are folks in some corners asking the question of whether instruments actually open up at all, beyond the initial break in period immediately after construction. Who knows? Maybe those Loyd Loar mandolins sounded the same/just as good, the first day they were put out for sale? It would be neat if someone kept a stock instrument for 20 or 30 or 50 years, with the express purpose of checking to see if the sound changed over time, but even with recording, I'd imagine it would be hard to replicate the exact same factors to make it scientific (mic, equipment, room acoustics, etc).

[Mark Gunter]

Hahaha, nice. By that rationale, people can stop buying old Gibsons and get a nice new mandolin that will "grow with them".

Well that was written "tongue in cheek" but it does kind of express my true sentiments, I don't see a great need for a tone-rite machine personally. If I thought it'd transform one of my instruments magically into a Gibson Loar-era instrument, OK, sign me up - but I don't believe that. Not knocking people who use the tone-rite, that's my own perspective that it would have little or no value to me even if it did work a bit.

[SternART]

I just saw this new thread....I wrote in the previous threads. I had Siminoff do dedamping on 4 instruments. On one a Gilchrist, the A string was weaker that the others, which were all strong & wonderful. The instrument came back with the A string in balance. I whupped on that thing for a year & no change....... but Roger's process did the trick.

Another instrument, a Heiden opened up VERY nicely and the other two it didn't transform them but maybe a bit more open. I've had a number of good instruments & am around great players with good instruments, so I think my ear is pretty good........ but hey YMMV.

I think the Tone Rite makes an instrument sound like you've already been playing it for awhile, but IMO not as good as Siminoff's dedamping. Wonder what Roger did with his setup?

[MontanaMatt]

Well that was written "tongue in cheek" but it does kind of express my true sentiments, I don't see a great need for a tone-rite machine personally. If I thought it'd transform one of my instruments magically into a Gibson Loar-era instrument, OK, sign me up - but I don't believe that. Not knocking people who use the tone-rite, that's my own perspective that it would have little or no value to me even if it did work a bit.

I agree that it won't take an instrument to "aged, and fully broken in". It doesn't impart the full range of fluctuations and changes that an instrument goes through in the aging process. I did observe rapid dedamping during my use of the tonerite. A tight new mando developed great amplitude control and full power clarity in under a week, as it was tight and stuffy when tuned up after transport.

When I bought my custom Weber a decade ago, the factory had a tank that instruments were hung in with an ozone generator to impart a curing or aging effect. I suspect that in the future there will be a design for a box that holds an instrument, strums it constantly with a pick, frets the notes, gradually ramps up barometric pressure and humidity and drops it down, adds ozone and uv radiation, all this after full torrification. Why not?

[dhergert]

Yup. It's called a garage, on top of the washing machine or on top of the dryer, with my bib overalls inside. I may throw some tennis shoes in too, for a little more bass emphasis.

I learned this trick from an antique dealer that I bought an old Swiss pocket watch from. Noting that it didn't work, I asked her if she knew of a local tinker who could fix it. She said, "put it on top of the washer for an hour or two."

It worked. The watch keeps perfect time.

[Stop]

vibration ( movement of the wood)and age is good on instruments, very little debate on that....no matter what kind of movement.

[MikeEdgerton]

vibration ( movement of the wood)and age is good on instruments, very little debate on that....no matter what kind of movement.

I'm not sure I agree with that. This one had some movement that wasn't real healthy.

[allenhopkins]

vibration ( movement of the wood)and age is good on instruments...no matter what kind of movement.

When I get my trailer hitch installed, I'll be dragging my Sobell around behind my Honda Element for a few hundred miles...that should "open it up" sufficiently...