1936 GIBSON F5 Fern- MY New LOVE

[grassrootphilosopher]

I don't know if your talking about me with a "realitycheck?"
Gruhn's 1941 F-5 is not 19.000 its 27.000 and if your talking about the 1933 Apollon F-5 at Gruhns thats far from pristine its been refinished and replaced tuners and fingerboard/no pickguard and a 50's case, for 35.000 and Gruhn does have a pristine 1931 F-5 but thats 60.000
As for the Shoenberg F-5 that was revoiced if someone wants a vintage F-5 sound, and they like it they'll make an offer and buy it! It's all in what one wants-there's the facts

I don´t think you need a realitycheck. You obviously did your homework.

My rant was directed at Shoenberg. And yes, I misquoted. I call the Gruhn and raise you a Carter's (I actually meant Carter´s Shop when I quoted the prices). Here´s the link to a pretty pristine thirties F-5 (sans pickguard) for 35.000: https://cartervintage.com/collection...nt=29122001219 And here is a 41 F-5 for around 19.000: https://cartervintage.com/collection...nt=35508509059 I´m sorry I got the shop wrong but I think that this really is the apropriate going rate for this kind of instrument. And apart from the interesting inventory at Shoenberg's I still think that regraduating cuts the price in half (at least).

But this thread shouldn´t derail. I am happy for your purchase. I think you bought a fine mandolin. I also like your stable. And for what it´s worth: https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/111728; this is your ad. And it´s a beautiful mandolin that you have for sale. And since we do not know each other and I don´t promote any sale of mine, I don´t think it´s a violation of the posting guidelines.

Now William, if you could post a video of your new vintage mandolin, and possibly a back to back comparison with your F-12 and your coversion mandolin. That would really make my day.

Cheers

[William Smith]

Ok your right with the Carter info, but I feel 35G is too much for that F-5 because it is missing the guard and has a replica new radius fretboard and missing original case, and the 41 they have is a bit high due to the custom work such as inlays non original tuners/tailpiece/guard and that fern is wrong in my opinion, I've only seen one fern from the 40's and that was on an F-4 that fern just don't look right to me and another well known collector/player thinks its a later add on as well?-its not as refined so to speak,I may be wrong on that but it should have a fluer-de-lis from that era.and thats missing an original case as well!
The modified one at Shoenbergs is a monster sounding mandolin modeled after Crusher I think. and I believe ya only get that sound from Gibson's that are aged naturally so if someone could offer a bit less I think it would be a fun mando to own, I almost popped on her but I just wanted one that was original, but nothing wrong with mods/conversion jobs-I love them and have a few F-7 conversions that'll put most any high end/dollar mandolin to shame! Yes I should do a video when I have the time-thats funny, 5year old girl, 6 month old baby boy,house project and mom going through some rare cancer stuff "that pretty much sucks!!" She could use some power of the prayer please. But I will try this summer, I'll do one of my 36 F-5,35 F-12,39 original F-7 and my conversions-still waiting on 2 from Randy Wood to get done. When I get em back I'll make time and do it for ya'll. I've never done anything like that so it'll be an experience, I might need some guidance on how to upload em-I'm not to computer bright!
I'd still like to see other owners 30's Gibson F-5's-I think they are way underrated mandolins due to the fact most everyone has a Loar fetish! But hey them prices are dropping 125G for a killer Loar right now in the classifieds.

[Bernie Daniel]

Thanks, Richie, I'm thrilled big time, a lot of people frown on the 30's Gibson F-5's but this one is for sure a great one!

No good reason for anyone to frown on the '30s Gibson F-5 -- awe some mandolins - -best looking of the vintage mandolins IMHO! Appearance wise I especially like the flower pots like Sam Bush's '37 Hoss but they mostly are great mandolins -- maximolo mojo with the block inlays. Confused about the script "The Gibson" on slant versus and the "Gibson" straight across. Seems like most 30s F-5s had the latter or did the Ferns have one style and the Flower pots the other?

[Jeff Mando]

The 30's are also a lot less common than Loar F-5's.

Congrats! Very nice mandolin. I was curious if you had the production figures to support 30's production being less than Loar production, as far as F-5's are concerned. It seems believable, considering we always are talking Loar this and Loar that and it is rare that a 30's F-5 is even mentioned, on the Cafe.

[William Smith]

Yes Bernie with Gibson they even used the straight Gibson on ferns, they were lacking the top part of the fern, some had the inlay, it was just hidden under the finish, mine was like this and someone scraped of the finish to reveal the inlay, Known as the "short fern" With Gibson in them years they did some strange things, like ya see some of the flowerpots from the late 30's that are ridiculously spaced out! I think this was one inlay artists way of putting his stamp on em? Funny. Maybe he was Mad at Gibson or just a plain "madcap". I've had some of the wide bell shaped sunburst bodied A-50's with a beautiful flowerpot inlay in the peghead, compared to an F-5!
As for production figures just look in the archives, 30's was the depression, not many people could afford a 250 dollar mandolin. That's pry why Gibson used leftover parts from the 20's and made the F-7's,10's,12's. To use up shortnecks and charge less than an F-5. You really don't see too many F-2's and F-4's from that time period and when you do for sure on the F-4's there are a load of variations such as different inlays in peghead,fretboard, elevated fretboards, mandola sized pegheads etc... Yes I also really dig the Block pearl inlays, Way Kool..

[William Smith]

OK I counted 36 or 37 F-5's from the 30's that are listed I didn't count any 40's and some I counted were from 1929. I do know of a few from the 30's that are not listed in the archives. So guessing way less than 50 F-5's from say 1930-39. There is one man that could tell ya for sure and he recently wrote a great book! He has access to all the shipping ledger info but that's private and off limits, too bad I'm trying to find the # of one of my conversions an F-7 from 37, I do know its a 37 from the first few #'s the others were so faded just can't tell! That mando was so played/un pristine thats why I had it converted and it's a MONSTER but still I'd love to nail down the serial# if possible.

With all luck for us Gibson freaks he'll put out another book??????? I know I'd be first in line and slam my $ down for it!

[f5loar]

When comparing dealer prices of these high end mandolins, keep in mind that many are there on consignment from the owners. They have the right to set a higher than market price that once the dealer tacks on his % commission it seems way higher than the market should bare. But many times an interested cash buyer can offer a much lower price, and many times that owner will take it if he has to have a quick cash flow. Who don't like getting a bargain! As far as the 30's/40's F5s, there are many happy professional owners who play them. I too have noticed many don't mention what "issues" they have when quoting a price. Original parts and finish are important in pricing of these high end vintage instruments.

[William Smith]

When comparing dealer prices of these high end mandolins, keep in mind that many are there on consignment from the owners. They have the right to set a higher than market price that once the dealer tacks on his % commission it seems way higher than the market should bare. But many times an interested cash buyer can offer a much lower price, and many times that owner will take it if he has to have a quick cash flow. Who don't like getting a bargain! As far as the 30's/40's F5s, there are many happy professional owners who play them. I too have noticed many don't mention what "issues" they have when quoting a price. Original parts and finish are important in pricing of these high end vintage instruments.

Yes sir well said! I sure know that most are consignment deals, been trying to swap for a long time to get a good sounding old 5! I agree most shops get 15% commision some 20% a lot of wiggle room. For sure if you have the cash in hand to make an offer, most of the time you can buy something a lot less than asking price. I agree there should be a full disclosure on originality on any vintage instrument and if there are modifications changed parts etc..that should be taken in account! By the Way I loved reading the BU article on you and your collection/museum a while back-I'd be in hog heaven looking at your goodies! Right there is a true labor of love, impressive, I take ya have a WONDERFUL wife!

[William Smith]

Yes sir well said! I sure know that most are consignment deals, been trying to swap for a long time to get a good sounding old 5! I agree most shops get 15% commision some 20% a lot of wiggle room. For sure if you have the cash in hand to make an offer, most of the time you can buy something a lot less than asking price. I agree there should be a full disclosure on originality on any vintage instrument and if there are modifications changed parts etc..that should be taken in account! By the Way I loved reading the BU article on you and your collection/museum a while back-I'd be in hog heaven looking at your goodies! Right there is a true labor of love, impressive, I take ya have a WONDERFUL wife!

I hope you don't mind me mentioning that article? But most know about it from reading the BUnlimited although they may not know your name,,

[CWRoyds]

Here's a nice one at Schoenberg Guitars: http://om28.com/ProductDetail?product=P140614002
Don McRostie regraduated the top; anybody ever checked it out?

When I was at Schoenberg I played the 1933 F5, the 1934 F10, and the 1951 F12.
All of them were pretty cool.
I thought the F5 sounded and played great.
I really liked the F10.
It wasn't the best sounding one, but it had a lot of cool about it.
Actually, I thought the best sounding mandolin in the shop was a Flatiron.
It had a super powerful chop.

You have to really really want an old Gibson to pay the prices they fetch.
Personally, I would be more likely to buy a Dudenbostel, Gilchrist, or Nugget, if I had that kind of money.
BUT I do understand the vintage Mojo of an old gibson, and I do understand why those with a Gibson fetish pay the price for them.
I would pay the ridiculous price for a 1957 Fender Stratocaster.
Why?... For me, it doesn't get any cooler in guitars than that.
We all have our instrumental fetishes, and we simply desire them above the others.

Here are the shots I took of those mandolins at Schoenberg.

[William Smith]

Nice photos, Love the looks of the F-10, I wouldn't mind getting that someday as I have the rarer 35 F-12 and some F-7's. That early 50's F-12 looks great as well. And even the regraduated F-5 is a nice one, but to me I'd rather have the old 5's I just like the tone way better than new makers. I've had new high end stuff like Pags, Gils. Different Gibson's never played a Dude but have spent time with Nuggets and while all have something I just like/prefer the old ones, they have something, maybe its the old wood, made in a time when $ was a scarce commodity.

[grassrootphilosopher]

When I was at Schoenberg I played the 1933 F5, the 1934 F10, and the 1951 F12.
All of them were pretty cool.
...
Actually, I thought the best sounding mandolin in the shop was a Flatiron.
It had a super powerful chop.

You have to really really want an old Gibson to pay the prices they fetch.

Personally, I would be more likely to buy a Dudenbostel, Gilchrist, or Nugget, if I had that kind of money.

...I do understand why those with a Gibson fetish pay the price for them.

...We all have our instrumental fetishes,

Concerning "instrument fetish"... Yes there are people that have them. But I certainly do think that the tone, musicality, muscle, drive, clarity (especially clarity) of vintage F-5 mandolins (and other vintage mandolins, F-4, A-4, Strad-O-Lin...) stand above modern instruments. Especially Loar F-5 and pre war F-5 mandolins have clarity, beauty and musicality of tone way above other instruments.

If you like the Flatiron best, more power to you. But don´t be fooled. The truth is often in a direct comparison. When playing a Lloyd Loar F-5 for the first time I was sorely disapointed. I thought it was tinny and weak sounding. Only when the owner (pro musician) played my (very [!] nice) newer F-5 while I played his Loar did I get a hearing adjustment that lasts until today (and I´m not too shaby a player myself). There is a day and night difference between a pre war F-5 (even with crusty strings and a bad setup) and a Flatiron F-5.

Concerning the preference of a Dude a Gil or a Nugget over a Loar... If you buy a Loar, you pay a lot for the miniscule amount of added clarity, musicality etc. (that indeed is magical). Whichever way you go... it´s all good.

Do I have an instrument fetish... nah! But I like nice instruments and the sound they make.

Owning a very good D-28 recreation by some world class luthiers I can say that you only notice the quality when you are left without it. I played in a jam situation (low key thing at a musician's gathering) when people walked over from way beyond where they were having a barbeque and started looking at my guitar and the guitar the other guy played (same make but on trial from his friend). The clarity and carrying power was so astounding that they heard everything from 100 yards away through their conversation. We didn´t play loud and for us the sound was just normal. That's what makes a great instrument. I have experienced that with banjos (pre war Grenada and a 28 PB 4 conversion, Lloyd Loar F-5s, post Loar Ferns etc.). This is what your "ordinary" instrument just does not do. And to my mind that is why people pay such prices for such instruments.

Once again trying to steer the thread back on track, I also would like to see more 30ies F-5s (along with a little video etc.) please.

[William Smith]

Concerning "instrument fetish"... Yes there are people that have them. But I certainly do think that the tone, musicality, muscle, drive, clarity (especially clarity) of vintage F-5 mandolins (and other vintage mandolins, F-4, A-4, Strad-O-Lin...) stand above modern instruments. Especially Loar F-5 and pre war F-5 mandolins have clarity, beauty and musicality of tone way above other instruments.

If you like the Flatiron best, more power to you. But don´t be fooled. The truth is often in a direct comparison. When playing a Lloyd Loar F-5 for the first time I was sorely disapointed. I thought it was tinny and weak sounding. Only when the owner (pro musician) played my (very [!] nice) newer F-5 while I played his Loar did I get a hearing adjustment that lasts until today (and I´m not too shaby a player myself). There is a day and night difference between a pre war F-5 (even with crusty strings and a bad setup) and a Flatiron F-5.

Concerning the preference of a Dude a Gil or a Nugget over a Loar... If you buy a Loar, you pay a lot for the miniscule amount of added clarity, musicality etc. (that indeed is magical). Whichever way you go... it´s all good.

Do I have an instrument fetish... nah! But I like nice instruments and the sound they make.

Owning a very good D-28 recreation by some world class luthiers I can say that you only notice the quality when you are left without it. I played in a jam situation (low key thing at a musician's gathering) when people walked over from way beyond where they were having a barbeque and started looking at my guitar and the guitar the other guy played (same make but on trial from his friend). The clarity and carrying power was so astounding that they heard everything from 100 yards away through their conversation. We didn´t play loud and for us the sound was just normal. That's what makes a great instrument. I have experienced that with banjos (pre war Grenada and a 28 PB 4 conversion, Lloyd Loar F-5s, post Loar Ferns etc.). This is what your "ordinary" instrument just does not do. And to my mind that is why people pay such prices for such instruments.

Once again trying to steer the thread back on track, I also would like to see more 30ies F-5s (along with a little video etc.) please.

Correctomundo it is all personal preference but to me there is nothing like the old builds, I will do a video when time permits its just krazy right now with family problems with my mother and newish baby, also relatives visiting for the next few weeks. But I promise to do some video comparisons with my real new/old 30's Fern F-5 and F-7 conversions, original prewar F-7 and prewar F-12. They all sound different. I just wish Randy Wood was finished with my 34 F-7 conversion and 58 F-5 re-graduation project, maybe by the time my company leaves in a few weeks and my ma's home from rehab at the nursing home I can get to a video of sorts with my stable?! I think that'll be a fun experience and really show that the old conversions have the tone and power that most will be in awe over, say over a newish build by a high dollar builder! I know for a fact that they are great or I would've sold them instead of selling newer/older 1982 F-5 Gilchrist/01 Paganoni F-5 DL-8/Gibson 04 V-fern/ 01 Gibson F5-G /06-07 Weber Custom Elite,2 matching Collings Varnished MT2-V's in natural birdseye blonde from 04-05/older 70's Givens F-5/ 95 Phoenix Ultra/ 01 Phoenix Neo-Classical/ a regraduated 1980ish Gibson F5-L that was Wayne Bensons, may have been a Ward Elliot job?/ some Good Kentucky Km-1000's/ Northfield F-5 traditional serial # maybe 52 0r 62?/ 1914 F-2/While all were different none had the power or plain neatness of voice as the 7 conversions! I may of had more quality 5's and A's just can't remember em all! Also handfuls of prewar Gibson A models such as 3 1935 A-50's with elevated boards "now 2 of them were actually on par with original F-7's from that era!" 36 A-Century that had the Kool factor, A 36 A-50 conversion-I re-graduated and put on a Siminoff A-5 neck and Lou Stiver put together and set the neck-really a good one, 5 or so wide sunburst bodied A-50's that could've been better with some custom work that can be done to those that not many people know about! I'm sure there was some others I've had but time is a cruel beast on my memory anyway! but I kept the 7 conversions! They may not look to pretty but if pretty is what ya want go buy something new and don't play it! Just my opinion, sure take care of em but play em!
I've also had my one conversion up against really well known Loars and well My conversion was all around a better mandolin, there is 2 well known players and collectors that one owned my one 7 conversion a long time ago and the one guy said when it was at the owners house there was 4 or 5 Loars there and a few unsigned loars and 2 ferns "I think thats what he said" and he said mine was unbelievable the best of the lot, now thats saying something about a well worn and beat up freak of a mandolin! It shouldn't sound as good as it does, the treble f hole is farther into the body than the bass side,ya can't tell if there is guard on her! Just a freak of nature/wood and wire, must be the glue is in all the right spots I've also had it up against many new Gibson 5's and Gils and Nuggets mine is just a sweetpea!
I'm sorry to go off about the 7 but it really is impressive for what it is at a fraction of the cost of a real high end Gibson. Best $ I ever spent right there in my opinion. I'm sure there will be those who disagree but Ya can't change my mind on it and I wouldn't budge if someone offered me a real LOAR for it,I'd still keep it, its been a part of me everyday since winter of 2002 I believe!
Now Grassroot what kind of guitar were you talking about-very curious myself!

[grassrootphilosopher]

Now Grassroot what kind of guitar were you talking about-very curious myself!

It´s one of their 1937 D-28 recreations. I was there at the 2010 "batch fair". I tried out recreations of a (all prewar of course) 0-28, 30ies OM-28, several mid 30ies D-18s, a 14 fret mit 30ies D-28 (true cannon), a 12-fret 30ies D-28 (very lush and dark)... I also played these instruments back to back with a 30ies D-28 (very nice experience!) with my 42 Southerner Jumbo...
And by the way: Prayers coming your moms way. Moms are special.

[William Smith]

Very NICE guitar Olaf! Never heard of that brand but they sure have it going on! Thanks for the prayers, Ma's had a rough go battling!
Nice I like those early mid 40's Gibson Guitars- I so regret getting rid of my 44 J-45 it was a great war era "Banner", had the flamey 1 piece "I think" maple back and sides, spruce top, 5 piece neck. It was possibly the best guitar I ever had and dummy me traded that and another 44 J-45 "hogwood neck,sides,1piece back, spruce top" Great sounding also but nothing like the maple 45! Those maple 45's have it going on" traded both for a minty 04 V-fern Gibson F-5 and well don't have that one anymore also, I,Yi Yi! I didn't have much cash in those guitars and wasn't hardly playing guitar at that time, way more mandolin but yep look back now and should've could've would've-Books have been written on that subject I believe! Funny and Sad

[V70416]

Congrats on a very cool mando! I like that sound!

Speaking of Schoenberg's,has anyone played that 1928 Fern they have on consignment? Sure looks sweet.

[William Smith]

No never played that 28 Fern there but it for sure looks the part, very clean, and yes thats sweeter than honey!

[pheffernan]

I thought of you with your various short neck conversions. Any interest? https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/112047#112047

[William Smith]

I did email and enquire, he sent me some videos of her being played and it does sound great, nice dry old sound to it but there is no documentation on the supposedly 40's F-5 that was used, and if so why would someone get rid of the nice sunburst, Kinda phishy to me, also the gibson is at a slant and flowerpot if that was from the 40's that would be the first one like that I've seen. all are straight with fluer-de-lis inlay, a few pots, Carters does have a 41 with the Gibson at a slant with a crude fern inlay, I don't believe that to be original to that mandolin either, Only 1 fern from that era and its on an F-4, and the fern inlay on the 4 is not fat/crude work? It really does sound good but for 12G/best offer, I don't know risky business in my mind, maybe 4-5G and thats it! Just my opinion but even the back wood is said to be from an F-4 from the 20's-that doesn't look right either, one would have to get it in their hands and really check it out!

[Jeff Mando]

I agree, it would be difficult to price such a creation, especially without better documentation. Very cool, IMHO, but what will 12K buy you otherwise vs what an original F-4 costs vs what a 40's F-5 costs? And, in terms of resale you have a very limited audience -- that is, people who pay 12K based solely on sound.....

Reminds me of some of the "bluegrass guys" who set up at the vintage guys shows -- obviously not full-time vintage dealers with pricing not based in any known reality. I remember years ago one guy had an old 40's D-18, beatup & cool, but priced three times what the going rate was at the time. I commented on his price in a polite manner and his justification was, "just CHORD it, son....."

[Nathan Kellstadt]

Do I have an instrument fetish... nah! But I like nice instruments and the sound they make.

Couldn't have said it any better myself.

On a side note, this would make a great epitaph for someone who opts to be buried with their instruments.

[William Smith]

Last post is great, I'm a history freak and it reminds me of old west type aficionados-game men or gunfighters who died with their boots on! A lot were buried with the weapon of their trade and yes boots also...

[Jeff Mando]

correction on my post #45 -- that SHOULD be "vintage guitar shows" NOT vintage guys shows. ??!!?? Typical mistake made by a vintage guy, namely me!

[William Smith]

I know what ya meant Jeff! mistake we all make even us not so vintage guys as I'm a 78 vintage, still have lived in 5 decades-now thats funny! for a 38 year old!

[f5loar]

Hate to get a bit "kinky" here, but there are some that just love that smell of the old vintage Gibsons. Some say it's from being in the original case for so long, others say it's just an old smell that can only come from antiques. I think it's a combination of both. It's also a good way to tell the originals from the fakes. You can't fake that vintage smell, but I know for a fact Charlie Derrington was working on putting that smell into the new ones. Not sure if he got there.