Tone Change Problem

[Thane Glenn]

I have a 1922 Gibson A2, with a lovely rich deep resonant tone. Recently it has developed a tone problem, and I can't figure out what the issue is. I'm hoping others might be able to help. I've owned the mandolin for about 3 years, and had noticed that the intonation was a bit off (a bit sharp). So I reset the bridge (I ended up moving it about 3/8 of an inch down toward the tailpiece). The result was that I was very happy with the intonation. Then I changed the strings (D'Addario J74s): they were quite old--had been on the mandolin for almost a year. However, with the new strings I got some tone problems. First, I got a little bit of buzz on the lower courses (G and D). I raised the action on the bridge a bit, and have mostly eliminated the buzz. But I'm getting an unpleasant edge to the tone. This has always been an extremely resonant instrument, but now it's like there are too many overtones--there's a kind of a piercing, tinny, vibrational burr to the tone that overwhelms the deep woodiness. At first I thought it was maybe just the jangle of new strings, but I've been playing it in for a couple of weeks, and the tone problem is still there. It's not a problem with the strings at the tailpiece, and there are no loose screws anywhere. The only things I can figure are that either lengthening the vibrational range of the strings a bit (when I reset the bridge) is causing a new set of resonances I didn't have before, or maybe resetting the bridge changed the fit of the bridge to the topwood just enough to cause different vibrations (though it looks fine). Any insights?

[pheffernan]

You don't list a location, but is it possible that the string change coincided with a seasonal shift in temperature and humidity? Your A2 might benefit from a tweak to the truss rod, assuming that it is present in your 1922 as I believe it would be.

[EdHanrahan]

... or maybe resetting the bridge changed the fit of the bridge to the topwood just enough to cause different vibrations ....

I had a similar buzz happen after a several-week stint of messing with altered tunings. Seems that the continual up-&-down re-tuning caused the bridge to lean just slightly toward the neck, inducing a buzz along the tailpiece-edge of the bridge's base. Not quite enough to actually see, but straightening it just a tad resolved the issue.

Since then, I've been careful to bring strings back to pitch, mostly, just one at a time, so that the fully-tuned string(s) can resist the pull of the next coming-up-to-pitch one. Bring 'em up to pitch more-or-less as a group and you'll likely induce some leaning, or at least the tendency to lean, and possibly some buzzing.

Once they're ALL real close you'll need to re-tune anyway, as arched tops are likely to compress a bit under tension (lowering the earlier-tuned strings), but at least this avoids the major inducement to lean the bridge.

Just one guy's experience!

[pops1]

I have the same mandolin, and have seen this on a few other 1922 A2's. Mine would not play in tune no matter where I put the bridge. It would help here and hurt there, mostly the A strings. After some measuring I found the nut too close to the first fret. A 1mm shim between the nut and fingerboard made it play wonderfully in tune. Check you intonation with the new strings, it might be the new strings are not letting the mandolin intonate as it should.

It could also be a loose truss rod vibrating in the neck, that sound can seem like it is coming from anywhere on the instrument and is hard to locate. If you check your truss rod and it is loose tighten it up and see if that helps.

[Mandoplumb]

I've got a friend, mandolin player, that told me something that more and more I agree with. He said sometimes he will get his mandolin out ( and it's a great sounding one) and it will sound like garbage. He used to go to working on it to "fix" it. He says that he has found out that if he leaves it alone next time he plays it it's right again, if he messes with it there will be some time before it sounds right. I agree with him--I don't claim to know the cause, maybe my ears that day, maybe weather change, maybe the mandolin just don't want to be played that day but if I don't mess it up it will correct itself most of the time.

[Bertram Henze]

You got used to strings that were almost a year old and loved the tone?
And now you can't stand the high frequency overtones of new strings? My verdict is a bad case of treblophobia.

You should try flatwounds for a cure.

Of course, this is walking out on a limb, but the story sounds so consistent, and that is the best I can come up with until I hear a recording. It is also walking out on a limb taste-wise, because I am a fan of brilliant scintillating overtones and would never use flatwounds myself. But I know what you mean by "woody", and flatwounds give it to you.

[Tobin]

First, I got a little bit of buzz on the lower courses (G and D). I raised the action on the bridge a bit, and have mostly eliminated the buzz. But I'm getting an unpleasant edge to the tone. This has always been an extremely resonant instrument, but now it's like there are too many overtones--there's a kind of a piercing, tinny, vibrational burr to the tone that overwhelms the deep woodiness.

You said that you put J74s on it. But what strings were on it before? Were they J74s as well, or something different?

I ask because it could be possible that the new strings are slightly larger than the old strings, and are not seating as well at the nut or saddle. This causes exactly what you describe, almost like a "sizzle" or insect noise. I had that problem on one of my guitars, after getting a wonderful setup done on it. All was well until I changed strings. I couldn't remember what I had on it before, but the new E string was slightly heavier and it created that terrible edgy sizzle sound.

Even if your strings are the exact same size/gauge as the old ones, I'd still check the seating at the nut and saddle. Sometimes they just don't set right in the slots and cause what you're describing. Just loosen each string one at a time - enough to be able to pull them up out of the slots. Give them a bit of graphite in the slots for good measure, using the tip of a pencil, re-seat them, and tune them up. You may find that the problem went away.

[CES]

Make sure the truss rod is adjusted to adequate relief and you have no worn frets. Let the J74s settle in for a week or two, and see if that helps. Flatwounds or Elixirs may help, as suggested.

If the problem persists, get thee to a luthier!!

[Tom C]

Its just the new string sound. With playing, what you hear will fade and eventually your strings will once again sound dull.

[allenhopkins]

You had to relocate your bridge nearly half an inch? Then you changed strings, and raised the bridge saddle (I assume you have a non-original adjustable bridge)? You've made a raft of changes, and it's really not too surprising that the mandolin sounds different.

If you've achieved optimal bridge placement and height -- and if you determine that you're not getting a "buzz," caused by strings perhaps not properly seated in nut and/or bridge, or a hardware rattle, or unwanted fret contact caused by neck curvature, but just a difference in tone -- I'd start experimenting with different makes/gauges of string, to see if you can find one that produces a sound similar to what you had before you started "tweaking" (not "twerking").

Check your bridge lean and fit in its new location, and any mechanical oddity that may have resulted from your changes. If you don't find anything, I'd guess it's a string-selection issue.

[Jim]

Also I would check to see if the overtones are coming from the string between the bridge and tailpiece. Try threading a piece of shoelace through them or deaden them with you hand.

[William Smith]

Also when messing with vintage instruments it does take some time for the bridge to re-settle for sure when you break the connection for tweaking! I've noticed this a lot over the years, it takes some time for the bridge to form to the top again!

[V70416]

They are all touchy little things.

Once you find what you like(possibly a long process) stick with it.

[Thane Glenn]

Wow! This is the first time I've posted to the Café, and I'm amazed at how quickly I received so many thoughtful responses. Thank you! I will take the suggestion from several here to give it a bit more time to see if things settle. If not, I have a friend who is a luthier (I took the instrument to him right after the change, and he found that the strings were vibrating against the tailpiece where the old felt had worn away--he kindly replaced the felt and assumed that had taken care of the problem). I can get him to check that the truss rod isn't loose. I'll also try the graphite on the bridge slots. Just to clarify, I replaced the J74s with new J74s. I have both flatwounds and Curt Mangan monels on the way (I had wanted to try them anyway--so after trying some of these other things--including more settling time--I can experiment with strings). I'll also go back and carefully reread all of these posts. Thanks so much! And I certainly welcome further input.

[William Smith]

You'll get mostly good if not great info from a bunch of these guys Thane! You also may want to try those little black rubber overtone grommets they go between the sets of strings behind bridge and in front of tailpiece-I think they work great-don't know where I got mine though?

[gweetarpicker]

You'll get mostly good if not great info from a bunch of these guys Thane! You also may want to try those little black rubber overtone grommets they go between the sets of strings behind bridge and in front of tailpiece-I think they work great-don't know where I got mine though?

Elderly Instruments has them...called "harmonic suppression grommets"...

[Timbofood]

I got a fistful of the grommets at an old radio supply shop, cheeep!