Make sure your pick strokes are wide enough to really drive through the pair of strings. You might be only playing 1 string of the pairs of strings so only half as loud as you could be.
Make sure your pick strokes are wide enough to really drive through the pair of strings. You might be only playing 1 string of the pairs of strings so only half as loud as you could be.
2010 Heiden A5, 2020 Pomeroy oval A, 2013 Kentucky KM1000 F5, 2012 Girouard A Mandola w ff holes, 2001 Old Wave A oval octave
http://HillbillyChamberMusic.bandcamp.com
Videos: https://www.youtube.com/@hillbillychambermusic
For sure I'm picking through both strings. I also play double stops but not very many on that particular tune.
I will give it a shot to try to play louder. The guitar player has a 12 string and I have played alone with him out in the street. It's really hard to overcome that thing and I swore I'd never do it again, but maybe I'll do it as practice.
I've seen several suggestions for some kind of amp at jams, at least that is what I take it to be. I think that is a good way to ruin a jam. First one can't be heard so he amps, now he is too loud so someone else can not be heard so he amps, soon everyone is amped and volumes wide open. I would no longer go to that jam.
Several things (most of them already covered):
1) Wow: you're surrounded on either side in the video by TWO fiddles, and each one of them is capable of making sound at ~80-100 dB! I pity you, girl! A single mandolin doesn't stand a snowball's chance in h*ll against that. Sorry, but you've lost before you even start!
2) You're playing Oldtime music. If you were playing swing jazz or bluegrass, then you could look forward to taking a solo break, where the other instruments traditionally play some BACKUP (i.e., chords), so your melodic sound can be heard for a run-through of the tune. Oldtime (and Celtic) music is not, frankly, very kind to quieter instruments like the mandolin, and rarely gives them a chance. Yes, the other players might decide to "feature" you, and play along a bit more lightly, but they're still playing the same melody that you are, and that makes it hard-to-impossible to stand out. Besides, they probably won't even do that at most oldtime gatherings, if my experience is any guide! Consider getting a banjolin or resonator mandolin if you ever hope to stand out in an Oldtime jam with one or more fiddles. Or switch to something like bluegrass, jazz, choro, etc.
3) What gauge strings do you use? If these are light, and not mediums or heavies, buy some thicker strings.
4) Your pick is almost certainly too thin, at 1.14 mm (45 thou). Try something that's 1.4 mm or thicker (55 thou or more).
5) Your pick stroke looks to be WAY too wimpy -- sorry! Pass your entire hand "through" the strings as you hit the pair, and try to stroke a bit more from your wrist, and a bit less from your fingers. This takes lots and lots of practice, for sure, but it works wonders! Greater wrist amplitude translates into greater sound amplitude.
6) Finally, compare the volume of your own mandolin to someone's high-end F5-model. Play them both with the same pick, same tune. Does your mandolin sound significantly softer? A whole lot of budget mandolins are build like brick outhouses and have excessively thick tops: these instruments can never achieve the volume of the better models. Perhaps your mandolin is one of those?
So I went into the bathroom and played in a corner and tried out a .73mm, a .88mm and a 1.14mm pick and the .88mm is way louder BY FAR than the other two.
Yes, but were those three picks made from the identical material, and with the same shape and bevel? If not, then this test may not have been very dispositive.
I would still counsel you go for something around 50 thou or thicker (1.3 mm or more). And have you tried playing with a Blue Chip pick yet?
Does that really matter? If I play with the pick I already have, it's much louder. I should just go out and play with that pick and meanwhile work on the other things.
Seems like the way to go, for now.
Also, if you know any other mandolin players, even perhaps not all that experienced. Have them play your instrument loud so you can hear it and see it being done and know your mandolin is capable. It probably is, but you need the direct experience of it to convince you, I would bet.
This is the best idea yet. Once I heard a better player do it with my hatchet (small axe? Funny? No? Oh well) and my pick, I knew I couldn't blame the gear.
I agree with foldepath, your jam mates don't listen to each other and, I would surmise, don't have real musicality. Talk with them if you're comfortable with mild confrontation. Others need to tone it down when one member is taking a break. Good luck.
I had the guy in the music shop do that when I bought it. I had him play my old mandolin, another one that I liked and the one I have now. The one I have now is the one I bought and was the loudest of the three. It's a "The Loar" so it's a fairly decent mandolin. I had a luthier take a look at it and he thought it was a nice instrument. Has just a couple weird problems I did not notice but nothing that needed fixing.
I've done the reverse as well, which is I've played others' mandolins and I still wasn't as loud as they are. The loudest guy I ever knew on mandolin played with a .56mm pick, too, so I know that the pick is not always the solution.
I'm happy to work on the issues I need to work on.
Yes, that seems like a sensible approach! My opinion, after watching you in the the video, is that the main thing you should concentrate on for now is right-hand technique. You're currently in a position of being able to pull a lot more volume out of your instrument by adjusting that. And once you can do that, you can think about all these other things that affect volume (pick, strings, setup, ToneGard, and the quality of the mandolin itself). And telling those fiddles to pipe down (or the pipes)!
But keep in mind that the pick shape, pick material, and pick bevel all contribute in some way to the tone and volume, in addition to the pick thickness. You can achieve a change in volume by simply changing the bevel, for example. Most of us (I think) prefer to use picks that are 45 thou or thicker on a carved-top mandolin (A4/5 or F4/5), and most use about 55 or 60. YMMV. But please consider this:
Going to a thicker pick might well help you with your right-hand technique, because it will force you to press "through" the strings harder, and not rely on the flexure of a thin pick to accommodate a weaker picking stroke. You should try it and see. It worked for me, and I never went back to a thinner pick.
Last edited by sblock; Jul-04-2017 at 1:17pm.
The video is a tell-tale indeed. You are moving the pick mainly with your fingers, not your hand. No momentum transfer that way.
Try the following (mentally): you're stabbing your false lover with a big kitchen knife, 20 times, full of anger, full of power - and now you replace the knife with a pick, the lover with the instrument but leave the rest as it is. You might not exactly hit the right strings at first, but that comes with practise. Don't pluck, just strike.
the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world
Well you all make me embarrassed to have ever picked up a mandolin at all.
That's perhaps a little TOO vivid, Bertram! I suppose after conjuring up this mental image, you need to play a murder ballad, like "Banks of the Ohio," "Katy Dear", "Pretty Polly", "Little Sadie", "Poor Ellen Smith", "Knoxville Girl", "Tom Dooley", "Poor Omie Wise", and so on. But given that the OP is female, maybe it would be best to stick to playing "Frankie and Johnnie"?!?
I think you are on top of it - looking at everything that addresses your concern. Good mandolin, good strings, good picks, good practice, good technique, good advice. The catch is that you are looking for volume to keep up with three very loud instruments. It's the equivalent of playing between two banjos at a bluegrass jam. Those instruments produce a heck of a lot of sound energy. One way to deal with it that doesn't require more volume is to vary the timing of your right hand attack. Perhaps play the melody with a slight bit of syncopation relative to what they are playing. It's sort of like the mandolin "chopping" in bluegrass. It is playing on the off beat and maybe a little ahead of the beat, so it can be heard easily over all the other instruments because they are mainly focused on the down beat. The thin pick brings out the high frequencies, which can cut through the mix even though it might not be actually louder. I have yet to find any way to get most violin players to back off so others can play (or sing) their version of the melody and be heard, so a work-around is necessary. I look forward to the video that shows what you worked out.
I played in a group today with three fiddles, one bass, two guitars and a banjo and I'm pretty sure I was able to be heard most of the time, believe it or not. It was really nice actually, non-stressful. Doesn't mean I won't stop working on things to become a better player, but maybe I won't worry so much about being heard under certain circumstances.
Whatever you do, don't get discouraged. We have all worked through things like this. Just keep playing the music you love. The journey is the reward.
2010 Heiden A5, 2020 Pomeroy oval A, 2013 Kentucky KM1000 F5, 2012 Girouard A Mandola w ff holes, 2001 Old Wave A oval octave
http://HillbillyChamberMusic.bandcamp.com
Videos: https://www.youtube.com/@hillbillychambermusic
I can put it less vivid, too: To move those high-tension strings, it takes momentum. A stiff pick is a good idea to transfer momentum to the strings, but the momentum must be there first. The energy that is supposed to come out of the instrument must be put in first. Momentum consists of inertial mass moving at speed: fingers alone do not have substantial inertial mass, but the whole hand does, and the forearm makes for higher speeds than fingers. A striking move of the forearm should provide the momentum needed.
This is a physicist's take of the solution, admittedly boring, but at least no lovers were harmed for this explanation...
The tricky part, of course, is to hold the pick under the forces involved (the pick not having a large handle to grip it by). My way is the three middle fingers close together on one side of the pick and the thumb on the other. A stiff pick only works if the grip on it is stiff as well.
the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world
I have noticed that I can play louder when using a thinner pick. Anything over 1 mm I found difficult to play. For me, 0.73 mm works best in terms of intonation and ease of playing
You got to dig in. Also, that guitar doesn't sound especially loud to me.
Living’ in the Mitten
There may be some confusion in the difference between digging deeper to mine more volume and getting overly enthusiastic in the excitement of playing the song and overdriving your instrument. The first effort is to always keep your loose pick grip but to displace the strings slightly more by pushing through slightly deeper not harder. The loose grip lets the pick slant to slide across the strings like a flexing pick does with a tight grip without the energy loss. The thickness of the pick is less important than the rigidity and surface tension in string contact. Many of us increased the stiffness of our pick as we improved our ability to control it. Another point of attention from my experience is short muted notes caused by poor left hand technique. Poor sustaining F5's can be especially challenging to get full solid notes pumped out in fast succession. I have to remind myself to not pull up too quickly when driving f hole instruments. The main thing is we all struggle with these adjustments, you are not alone. I have three very different mandolins. Each mandolin requires technique adjustment to my approach as I warm and limber them and me into one.
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There is the danger of mixing up the several meanings of the so-called loose grip. Does it mean
- the pick can still rock to and fro while moving across the strings
- the grip feels loose as opposed to tensed-up muscles or even cramp.
The former goes with fingers being the soft stubs they are, the latter is result of coordination of muscles that counter the forces as they come, not in between.
Neither collides with my concept of "stiff", because that just means the fingers being passive holders of the pick, the hand doing the moves, as opposed to fingers actively moving the pick in a passive hand.
the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world
Whoa boy, now we're venturing into the semantics of language...."What the meaning of 'is' is..."
In my experience, pickers and technique come in all sizes. The late, great Dempsey Young actually moved his fingers (thumb and index) when picking, in addition to swinging the wrist. Grisman seems to just swing his wrist, as many do, me included. My pick grip allows the pick to rock to and fro. My grip is just firm/tense enough to keep the pick from falling out (sometimes, it does). The term 'stiff grip' seems to imply, maybe falsely by me, a tense clamping of fingers on the pick. I think, now, that that implication is incorrect.
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