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Thread: Longtime Musician, New Mandolinist!

  1. #1

    Default Longtime Musician, New Mandolinist!

    Hello!

    I just acquired (quite by accident too, how wonderful), a mandolin.

    (Yes, it's a Rogue, but still.)

    I've been a musician for years, getting my BA in Music Ed and now teaching music, and have always loved to pick up and learn new instruments. Getting my hands on a mandolin has ignited that love again, and with some violin theory in my back pocket it feels like my fingers know more than I do sometimes.

    As a mando-newbie who knows music and theory and can read sheet, tabs, and chord charts, what are some pieces of mando-specific advice I should definitely know? I need something to do while I let my poor soft fingertips take a break...

  2. #2

    Default Re: Longtime Musician, New Mandolinist!

    Rob Meldrum, a member here, has a free e book on set up. Get it and set your mandolin up. Your fingers will thank you.

    Mandolin for Dummys is a good reference book to have.

    Mandolessons.com is a good resource for beginners.

    A fresh set of strings is not a bad idea.

    If you find the mandolin more than a passing fancy, buy a solid wood mandolin.
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    Registered User Jill McAuley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Longtime Musician, New Mandolinist!

    If you're not already doing so, get your hands on heavier picks (1.0mm and up) as lightweight ones will sound weak and tinny on the strings.
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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Longtime Musician, New Mandolinist!

    What instruments are in your background. That will give you an idea of what instrumental prejudices you may have to fight to get mandolinny.


    My apologists to extremely talented musicians, for whom none of this applies. I haven't had as much experience in and around the extremely talented genius level of musicians, so in my experience...

    Ex woodwinders, often have to fight the tendency to play single note melody, and to fear more than three sharps or flats, and see the harmony and chords as "someone else's job".

    Ex guitarists, especially chord bangers, often have to fight the tendency to see the mandolin as just a different pile of arcane finger positions to memorize and strum with.

    Or to not notice that the mandolin is usually fingered diatonically and not chromatically like a guitar.

    Ex piano players and keyboarders often, in my experience, seem to struggle with that key of C prejudice, and not easily catch on to freedom of "no black keys", the universality of closed form fingerings in every single darn key.

    Ex violinists, often enough, don't notice that frets allow one to go up the neck on any string, not just the e string.


    Again these are just things I have noticed and not necessarily applicable personally, and don't apply to really accomplished really talented musicians, who seem to have a handle on music itself that transcends whatever instrument they play it on.
    Last edited by JeffD; Jul-09-2017 at 2:36pm.
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    Default Re: Longtime Musician, New Mandolinist!

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    What instruments are in your background. That will give you an idea of what instrumental prejudices you may have to fight to get mandolinny.

    As far as I can say, I'm a bit all over the map instrumentally...

    My primary is oboe, but I have played piano for most of my life. I also play uke and guitar quite a bit when I teach, and I play flute/picc, sax, trumpet, trombone...

    As mentioned, I also have played violin, and have played (but less recently) all basic band instruments. So, basically, I've got a bit of winds, brass, perc, and strings all under my belt in some way/shape/form.

    That being said, your observations about some of the problems faced by musicians crossing over are super useful.



    A little more info: I did restring the instrument, but I think in the future flatwound strings might be a little kinder to my fingers. I'm considering taking a few lessons to get myself oriented and ask mando-specific questions to an instructor, but I'll check out that link too!

    Thank you for your responses!
    (please continue to give advice if you have any!)

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    Orrig Onion HonketyHank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Longtime Musician, New Mandolinist!

    Jeff, thanks for omitting any commentary on us ex-banjo-accordian-bagpipes folks.

    Furthermore, having played woodwinds in high school I was heartened by your observations -- all these years, I have felt like I was just plain lazy for having all those secret thoughts you just revealed. It's great to find out that I was somewhat normal (at least until I took up the banjo).
    New to mando? Click this link -->Newbies to join us at the Newbies Social Group.

    Just send an email to rob.meldrum@gmail.com with "mandolin setup" in the subject line and he will email you a copy of his ebook for free (free to all mandolincafe members).

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Longtime Musician, New Mandolinist!

    Quote Originally Posted by HonketyHank View Post
    Jeff, thanks for omitting any commentary on us ex-banjo-accordian-bagpipes folks.

    Furthermore, having played woodwinds in high school I was heartened by your observations -- all these years, I have felt like I was just plain lazy for having all those secret thoughts you just revealed. It's great to find out that I was somewhat normal (at least until I took up the banjo).
    Well, actually, I have an ex-banjo observation. That is that the two or three mandolinners I know who used to play banjo have an addiction to capo, and more frustration not being louder than everyone. True observations even if they prove untrue in generalization from the specific.
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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Longtime Musician, New Mandolinist!

    Quote Originally Posted by L.Mei View Post
    As far as I can say, I'm a bit all over the map instrumentally...
    You have a wonderful wonderful advantage, and your playing will show it I am sure.

    Your conception of music already transcends any specific instrument. You see and can conceptualize the whole edifice, from every perspective, not just from the one door you walked in from, like many, maybe even most, players I know.

    I find, (and I have no reason to butter you up, I hardly know anything about you) I find that musicians with a similar perspective are a whole lot of fun to play music with.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Longtime Musician, New Mandolinist!

    I am expecting comments from Nile Hokkanen or catmandu any moment now.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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    Default Re: Longtime Musician, New Mandolinist!

    Mei, I would echo all the advice given above. I would add one more thing - study the right hand technique of good mandolinists. Baron Collins-Hill at mandolessons.com, Mike Marshall, and other good players on various videos. If you have played primarily backup or fingerpicking on guitar or uke, you may find a somewhat different stroke to be beneficial in the long run for melodic flatpicking on the mandolin. There are quite a few free video lessons available on right hand technique that include exercises that don't even require fretting (So achy left hand fingers are not an excuse.) In addition to BC-H and MM, Pete Martin has some good ones too. There are more, but those just come to mind first.
    New to mando? Click this link -->Newbies to join us at the Newbies Social Group.

    Just send an email to rob.meldrum@gmail.com with "mandolin setup" in the subject line and he will email you a copy of his ebook for free (free to all mandolincafe members).

    My website and blog: honketyhank.com

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    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Longtime Musician, New Mandolinist!

    Your violin technique will help with fingering, and your guitar technique with picking. Your overall grasp of music theory and practice will help with everything, as well your instrumental versatility -- the tenth instrument is easier to learn than the first (unless, of course, it's concertina...).

    Since you've asked for advice, you'll get a lot of it, about what strings, picks, strap, tuner, right hand technique, left hand positioning, etc. etc. etc., you should adopt. Remember, that these are choices that worked for other mandolinists; doesn't mean they're wrong, but as you go, you'll find what works best for you. We can only advise based on our individual experiences, and what we've picked up in conversations along the way. Appreciate the well-intentioned contributions, but explore on your own as well.
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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Longtime Musician, New Mandolinist!

    Sound advice:

    Step away from the mandolin. And run. As fast as you can.

    The path into the mandolin has no exit, its not easily reversible. Similar to pain killers or heroin in this respect. There is no way to leave a tether that allows your loved ones to pull you out. Eight String Addition will be listed in DSM-6 when it comes out, I am sure.

    Abandon all Hope ye that enter.
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    Default Re: Longtime Musician, New Mandolinist!

    Quote Originally Posted by L.Mei View Post
    As far as I can say, I'm a bit all over the map instrumentally...

    My primary is oboe, but I have played piano for most of my life. I also play uke and guitar quite a bit when I teach, and I play flute/picc, sax, trumpet, trombone...

    As mentioned, I also have played violin, and have played (but less recently) all basic band instruments. So, basically, I've got a bit of winds, brass, perc, and strings all under my belt in some way/shape/form.

    That being said, your observations about some of the problems faced by musicians crossing over are super useful.



    A little more info: I did restring the instrument, but I think in the future flatwound strings might be a little kinder to my fingers. I'm considering taking a few lessons to get myself oriented and ask mando-specific questions to an instructor, but I'll check out that link too!

    Thank you for your responses!
    (please continue to give advice if you have any!)
    Hi long time musician here also. 45 years on flute and 20 on alto sax. I play by ear, can read simple notation, but I memorize stuff and do improvisation. To my great delight I discovered that the flute works well with bluegrass, gospel and old fiddle tunes. So that will carry me thru until I get up to speed on the mandolin.

    Took up the mandolin a year and a half ago and love it! I am at the point where I can pick most anything and have memorized enough songs to have fun with friends. Chords is the new concept for me. Not quite ready to step out and play with people I don't know, but that is what my flute is for. Maybe in another six months...

    Take lessons and not online. Do that soon to avoid bad habits and to understand the instrument. Wait a while before you buy a quality mandolin so you know what works for you. This from my personal experience.
    Last edited by Mr5150; Jul-09-2017 at 5:44pm.
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  15. #14

    Default Re: Longtime Musician, New Mandolinist!

    I'll say it again. If you have an out of the box Rogue, you can make it much easier to play. Watch the YouTube video by Jerry Rosa of the Rosa String Works channel when he bought one out of curiosity, and does a setup on it.
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    Registered User Billy Packard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Longtime Musician, New Mandolinist!

    I'll chime in!

    Let the MAS set in early and look for a new/newer Kentucky, The Loar or Eastman mandolin at around $300.00. Have it properly set up by a Luthier, (familiar and friendly with mandolins) with a set of light gauge stings and there will be no turning you back!

    I did a workshop a few years ago on right hand technique that I am including here. While there will likely be comment or debate it is based on my own development and careful observation of the worlds leading mandolinists. (BTW, Right hand for the Guitar and Mandolin differ considerably.)

    The Right Hand A Few Thoughts

    The right hand is where the music happens, where the pick and the string collide. In the briefest terms, keep your right hand free and above the strings. Don't rest your hand on anything. Keep your extra fingers loosely curled inwards and don't rest them on the instrument or pick-guard. The right hand will have proper balance and move easily with this hand position. Almost all of the hand movement is at the wrist, (not the elbow), so you can see the importance of an unfettered hand.

    The angle the pick hits the string will affect tonality and you should experiment. Striking the string with the pick parallel to the string has a particular sound as does striking it at a 45 degree angle. I will alter the angle to affect tonality within a phrase.

    There is a range of tonal options depending where the string is struck. Brighter toward the bridge and warmer toward the fingerboard. If you develop your technique so you can move your hand around while you play you have all the options.

    When picking the strings push through BOTH of them. The path of the pick should be parallel with the face of the mandolin, not upwards and away from the mando which only gets one string. If you were to continue the movement of the pick you would stop at the next string. The down stroke and the up stroke should sound the same. Also, the up stroke and the down stroke should only travel as far as it needs to play the string.

    It is critical to keep in mind the concept of minimizing extraneous hand movement. Develop a clear sounding note one at a time. Lots of fast notes are cool if they are each clear and succinct and you can hear every one.

    With regard to the tremolo, smoothness is paramount. Even and buttery, my goal is to emulate the effect of the bowed violin string. Practice starting and stopping. The ideal wonʼt have a spike at the beginning or end, just an even steady flow of sound from the outset.

    The shape of the point of your pick has a huge affect on sound. A sharp point has a more tight or precise tone while a rounded tip has a softer, more defuse sound. The thickness of the pick parallels this concept.

    Lastly, for now, the material the pick is made of is important. I am completely in love with the Blue Chip pick. Incredible space-age break through.

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    Default Re: Longtime Musician, New Mandolinist!

    Music Educator should be able to teach their students a wide variety of instruments,

    so adding the Mandolin to your basic skill set.

    I friend , MA in Music Ed, is teaching musical theater in Viet Nam, now.



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    Default Re: Longtime Musician, New Mandolinist!

    Abandon all hope!
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  20. #18

    Default Re: Longtime Musician, New Mandolinist!

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    You have a wonderful wonderful advantage, and your playing will show it I am sure.

    ....

    I find, (and I have no reason to butter you up, I hardly know anything about you) I find that musicians with a similar perspective are a whole lot of fun to play music with.
    Well, thank you very much! I can only hope that it's as much fun to play music with me as it is for me to play music with others


    I'm extremely encouraged by all the advice and ideas I'm receiving from people-- I wasn't sure if I should join MC, but I'm happy I chose to post

    I do have some experience with health conditions that seem similar to MAS...and even after only a handful of days I'm already experiencing symptoms. Hopefully previous exposure--and the other delightful outcomes of giving in when resistance becomes futile..my Loree, my Korg...--can help me hold off on giving in to MAS immediately.


    Quote Originally Posted by Br1ck View Post
    I'll say it again. If you have an out of the box Rogue, you can make it much easier to play. Watch the YouTube video by Jerry Rosa of the Rosa String Works channel when he bought one out of curiosity, and does a setup on it.
    I can't wait to sit down and check this out! My mandolin was owned previously--briefly--and never really used (I can only imagine they weren't expecting the sharp strings!) so I don't know what's been done to it as far as set up, but going through it again can only be beneficial to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Packard View Post
    I'll chime in!

    Let the MAS set in early and look for a new/newer Kentucky, The Loar or Eastman mandolin at around $300.00. Have it properly set up by a Luthier, (familiar and friendly with mandolins) with a set of light gauge stings and there will be no turning you back!

    ...
    ...
    ...

    Billy Packard Mandolin.com,
    Copyright 2012

    Billy

    billypackardmandolin.com

    Thanks so much for the right hand insight-- that's where I'm thinking I'll have the most difficulty, since besides sore fingers my left hand is doing well! I'm trying not to give in to MAS immediately, but I think setting aside some savings in the very near future is a probably thing.




    As soon as I can, I'll attend to my mandolin and see if I can improve its set-up; so far I'm doing alright with songs...I've gotten Swallowtail Jig under my fingers already, and am pretty good with the strum pattern too--but it helps that I can read the notes, the tab, and by ear...a local contra-band plays the Jig almost every dance night, so I could hum it in my sleep!

    Keep posting ideas and advice if you have any! Thank you so much.

  21. #19

    Default Re: Longtime Musician, New Mandolinist!

    As I'm essentially a beginner myself, I can tell you one thing that will instantly improve your right hand technique.... an armrest. After I started using one (I built my own actually) I noticed an immediate and drastic improvement.

    Whereas I had been resting my pinky on the mandolin (I still do this on guitar) while picking individual notes, once I had the armrest, I no longer needed to, as my hand was automatically hovering at the same height that I had needed the pinky to achieve before, negating the need to rest anywhere.

    If you'd never seen one, here's mine. There are prettier ones out there.





    Also, I've recently participated in some other noob threads that I've found very helpful, so if you look at my post history, you may see a thread or 2 that might interest you.

  22. #20
    Registered User Charlie Bernstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: Longtime Musician, New Mandolinist!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jill McAuley View Post
    If you're not already doing so, get your hands on heavier picks (1.0mm and up) as lightweight ones will sound weak and tinny on the strings.
    Hi! I'm new here, too.

    Yes. As a guit picker new to mando, I've learned that there's more to picks than thin/medium/heavy. Who knew? Different makers use different materials, and that, in addition to thickness, makes a big difference. Mando picks also come in a lot of shapes and sizes - some bigger than guitar picks, some smaller, some shaped exactly like guitar picks but of other materials.

    A medium guitar pick (what I'm used to) sounds shrill on a mando. A thicker pick or harder material tames it. Bob Clark, another member here, turned me on to Snark picks, and their .88 (same as a medium guitar pick) sounds much warmer. I'm also trying Dunlop's Dawg picks, and though I haven't gotten the hang of the thickness or shape, they're fun and interesting.

    Blue Chip picks (and a few others) cost a fortune, entering a realm of picks I'd never dreamed existed and will probably never venture into.

    HOW you hold the pick is different, too. To tame that shrillness on the high strings, hitting the strings at a slant instead of flat-on seems to help. That is, flat on for the G and D strings, slanted a little for the A and E strings.

    The hardest thing for me has been learning how to hold my left hand. There seems to be a choice between (a) thumb pain, (b) forefinger pain, and (c) wrist and arm tingling and numbness.

    So far, it seems worth it. The layout is logical, unlike a guitar fretboard, so improvising and chording are almost (almost) intuitive. And that sound. Oh, that sound! Worth cracking.

    And yes, graduate to a solid-wood instrument as soon as you decide you're going to stick with it.

  23. #21
    Registered User Jill McAuley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Longtime Musician, New Mandolinist!

    Charlie, are you using a strap with your mandolin? I find a strap helps tremendously with left hand technique, as it supports the weight of the instrument, rather than me needing to do so with my left hand. This frees you up movement wise, and also contributes to less tension in the left hand/wrist/arm.
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    Mediocre but OK with that Paul Busman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Longtime Musician, New Mandolinist!

    Welcome! As an oboe player you're well versed in classical music no doubt. Classical music can be played on the mandolin. Vivaldi wrote for it, as well as others. Mandolin players have "stolen" lots of other instruments' repertoire to play on mandolin. Look up Chris Thile playing Bach partitas. Actually, look up Chris Thile playing just about any genre.
    One bonus to the mandolin is that you don't have to make and tinker with reeds!
    As has been said, a lot will depend on what type of music you want to play. I play mostly Irish music, and as a pretty serious recorder player I had to learn to look at ornaments in a whole different light than in Baroque music.
    In any event, you're in for a LOT of fun.
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  25. #23

    Default Re: Longtime Musician, New Mandolinist!

    Welcome, put me on the me too list, once a classical trumpet player who has forayed into many other instruments, none of them I play well (except for trumpet), and added mandolin to the list a year or so back. Strictly amateur hour for me, but I am good enough to get into a church band on multiple instruments ('lectric bass and drums), still waiting for the mandolin skills to be good enough to perform in public.

    Mandolin has a lot of appeal to me, is small (portable), logical (not like guitar) - somehow my brain can handle 4 strings better than 6, is both melodic and rhythmic, and is unusual enough that it gets some attention, but not something that nobody has heard of either.

    I actually took up mandolin because I thought I would have an easier time getting into a band if I wasn't competing with the 10,000 guitar players per square-mile we have here in the US. :-) Same thinking applies to drums n bass.
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