Review of the Tone Gard

[dhergert]

That's really nice looking.

But where do you keep your sheet music and puppy?

[Ron McMillan]

That's really nice looking.

But where do you keep your sheet music and puppy?

I can't give away all of my secrets

[mandobassman]

How can anyone play the instrument with pick guards - tone guards - arm rests etc.? There needs to be a "Poser Mandolin Cafe" for hiding behind all this crap, rather than practicing and playing well.

I wondered how long it would take for the negative comments to come in.

There are a ton of working pros that use the ToneGard because it does what it says it does. Do you really think that guys like Mike Marshall or Ricky Skaggs are "hiding behind all of this crap" and are not practicing or playing well?

I don't normally buy into too many unnecessary accessories, but I use the ToneGard because my mandolin is significantly louder and fuller sounding with it on.

[Billkwando]

How can anyone play the instrument with pick guards - tone guards - arm rests etc.? There needs to be a "Poser Mandolin Cafe" for hiding behind all this crap, rather than practicing and playing well.

By that rationale we should all be fingerpicking the mandolin. Picks are just a crutch, right?

I'm going assume you left your laptop open and that one of your bandmates decided to troll you by posting contrarian nonsense.....but just for the sake of argument:

Since I saw your post about having bought a CA bridge, I know you can't be that anti-accessory. I got my CA bridge on Wednesday, and haven't installed it yet, so I can't yet say how much difference it will make in the tone, but I can tell you that no accessory can make as much of an immediate and dramatic change in tone and volume as a tone gard.

Did you try the test I mentioned previously, where you "mute" the back of the mandolin by touching it to your leg? It's pretty undeniable.

While I do feel that mandolin players are an easy mark for accessory makers who are fully aware many mandolin players are routinely willing pay 5 to 10 times more for a "good" mandolin than the average guitarist would be willing to pay for a "good" guitar, it is undeniable that the vast majority of these accessories do, in fact, work well. Whether they're worth the asking price is up to the individual.

Do I think tone gards should cost $30? Yes. That's why I still haven't worked myself up to paying $75 for something that basically looks like half a chicken basket.


Do I think a Chinese manufacturer will eventually make one out of ABS plastic and sell it for $15? Yes.

However, I do I know that they work.

As for arm rests, do you also propose that violinists not play behind "crap" like chin rests? If a mandolin was as thick and large as a guitar, one wouldn't need an armrest....but it's not.

While for me a pickguard would be purely ornamental, there many examples of old mandos where people have "played through" the finish because they had no pickguard (same for armrests and sweaty arms). It happens.

I do get where you're coming from to an extent, because I think products like Finger Ease are ridiculous, but on the other hand, I've heard Prince used to spray that crap on all of his guitars. So, what do I know? I think maybe you just need to be better informed on what is chicanery, pushed by charlatans, and what isn't....as well as what is a crutch and what isn't. That will come with time.

It's best to do some research and read a lot of threads (like I did), before you roll in and essentially insult the entire forum, as I would guess that the vast majority of players here use at least 1 of the accessories you've disparaged. (<-armrest guy here, hello!)

While I've leveled a bit of opinion at what I see to be the general state of affairs regarding accessories (see above), what I have not done is criticize other folks for how they chose to spend their money or play their mando.

Who knows though? Maybe you started drinking early yesterday? We all put our foot in our mouth sometime. I forgive you.

I know the Tone Gard must work, but I just don't like the look of it. I fashioned a wooden brace that does a similar job. The two viola chinrest clamps (violin ones are not long enough) cost a few bucks. The wood I literally picked up at the side of the road, carved by hand with no power tools, and gave many coats of a walnut stain. It works beautifully and weighs next to nothing.

That's really cool! That's basically what I was trying to accomplish with the viola shoulder rest. I thought of doing something similar, but I don't like the look of the clamps showing in front. Still, the gold is nice.

I can't tell from the pic, but I assume you carved away the wood between the 2 clamps, so it doesn't touch the back of the mando?

[Ron McMillan]

I can't tell from the pic, but I assume you carved away the wood between the 2 clamps, so it doesn't touch the back of the mando?

Yes, I somehow lost the picture that shows the 'bridge' spans the back with about 8mm clearance at the edges (where it sits on small cork seats, the only points on the back that touch the instrument), and 2mm or 3mm clearance at the centre of the back. The wood is only about 3mm thick at the centre, but doesn't flex enough to touch the mandolin's back plate.

[mandroid]

The Varnish on the back of my 1922 A4 appreciates the TG, separating my sweaty belly in a damp T shirt from damaging the finish.

[Eric Platt]

My A Jr seems to be more resonant with it on.

However, when I tried it on my The Loar LM-220, didn't make as much of a difference. Could be the back plate of the latter is thicker. Enough to offset any advantage of the TG. Of course, that's my perception and only on that particular instrument.

[Ron McMillan]

One more picture that gives a better idea of how my home-made gizmo sits across the back of my no-name F5.

[Alex Orr]

I've had a tone-gard for years and think the difference is very noticeable, both on my Brentrup and my cheap Kentucky A model. The one issue I do have with the thing however is that after about seven years, the paint is coming off. It's peeling or flaking, but it rubs off on most anything it touches. I discovered this after playing for a few hours in some khaki shorts and, lo and behold, black lines all over my right leg where the thing was resting. That said, seven years is a pretty good run and I suppose there are options here - maybe finding someone to sand-blast it and just take off all the black paint?

[TonyP]

Alex, that's NOT the paint, it's the old rubber hose on the arms. The new Gards have silicone hose that won't deteriorate like the old stuff. If I'd known of it at the time, I'd have gone to it. Of course there are those that don't like that the new hose isn't black like the old hose as its a semi clear. But the new stuff is totally inert where rubber, plastic, surgical and cork aren't. You can get hold of me through the Tone-Gard site.

best reGards,
Tony

[rsmillbern]

I was a disbeliever but not anymore, I would like to buy one, trouble is you cannot buy one in the UK, shame on the British music trade.

Dave H

You could probably get one from the New Acoustic Gallery in Germany.

http://n-a-g.info/index.php?option=c...category_id=22

[Dave Greenspoon]

How can anyone play the instrument with pick guards - tone guards - arm rests etc.? There needs to be a "Poser Mandolin Cafe" for hiding behind all this crap, rather than practicing and playing well.

Wow. My quick response to the question "How can anyone play..." is "Quite well, and probably even better than I would otherwise."

Let's see: the pickguard that I added protects the top of my Rigel A Nat; the arm rest I had on my Washburn Jethro protected my arm from a sharp corner of the t/p cover; and the Tone Gard does its job preserving the natural tone of my Rigel from dampening through body contact perfectly, as advertised. All three pieces of gear help my playing by protecting the instrument from damage, protecting my body from damage while ensuring playing comfort, and protecting the inherent tone and volume of my instrument. I don't consider those accessories to be "crap" at all.

What I do consider *crappy* is the judgmental attitude of those who insist that their way is the *right* way and anyone in disagreement deserves to be disparaged. IMO, that is not the Way of the Cafe. With all due respect, learn some tolerance for different opinions, practices, and preferences.

I am also a little surprised by folks feeling that the Tone Gard is an expensive accessory, especially given its demonstrable, positive impact on tone and volume and that it will truly last a instrument's lifetime. I don't know how many years it's been since I bought mine, but it is at least a dozen. Currently, the amortized cost of my TG is $6.25 per year I've owned it, and decreasing every year. That's a cheap premium for "Tone Insurance" IMO. Also, there is never a worry it is going to get dropped and lost, unlike some of the uber-expensive picks (Red Bear, Blue Chip, etc) that so many on this sight seem to love and swear by as the secret to "their tone."

At the end of the day I am reminded of ancient Talmudic wisdom that affirms "taste and smell are beyond debate." Clearly the same applies to instrument accessorization as well. My Rigel will continue to wear that Tone Gard when my eventual grandchildren fight over who will be the Rigel's next steward.

[GeoMandoAlex]

How can anyone play the instrument with pick guards - tone guards - arm rests etc.? There needs to be a "Poser Mandolin Cafe" for hiding behind all this crap, rather than practicing and playing well.

Pickguards-I just installed a pickguard on my Weber Gallatin. I have gotten away from the "pinky plant", but I still find myself doing it if I am not conscious of it. I have started to create a blushing where I plant the pinky. It is there, yes as a crutch, to prevent anymore damage to the finish. I don't mind the distressing of a mandolin. It shows it has been played. At the same time, I want to keep the mandolin in good condition.

Toneguards-I originally bought a toneguard back in 2005/6 to protect a MK Firefly Flame I have. While the finish on it has been described as bulletproof, I did want to protect it as much as possible. I also have noticed a better tone with the mandolin too. Since it has a better tone, I played it more often. I am looking at buying one for the Weber here is a couple months.

Arm rests-I have a armrest. I have found that the curve on the arm rest is better than the sharp edge on a mandolin. No pain from sharp edge means I will play the mandolin longer.

I even have a strap for each mandolin. This accessory has allowed me to stand while I play or better yet, walk around while playing. Did I buy these to look like I know how to play the mandolin. Nope, I did it to protect the instrument, get a better tone, and to play longer. I am able to practice longer and in turn, have gotten better at playing the mandolin. To me the is a win/win.

[Billkwando]

I am also a little surprised by folks feeling that the Tone Gard is an expensive accessory, especially given its demonstrable, positive impact on tone and volume and that it will truly last a instrument's lifetime.

I think, like beauty, it's in the eye of the beholder. Someone who paid $1000 to $5000 for their mandolin probably wouldn't bat an eye at paying $70 plus shipping for an external cage that has no moving parts, and looks like it came from the garden center at Wal Mart. Someone who paid $250 or $300 for their instrument (like me) might be more hesitant to shell out nearly a 3rd of the price of their mandolin for something that, by nature, is there simply to take up space.

Clearly there are more of the former camp than there are of the latter. It's supply and demand, and it's all subjective. I have no problem, for example, paying $70 for a guitar pickup.....but that's an electronic device that becomes a part of, and resides within the instrument. I may even eventually buy a tone gard myself......but just for fun, let's look at it a different way:

Who here would pay $70 for a guitar stand/music stand with no legs? (either of which probably has more metal than the TG) Who would see that as a good value?

It depends on which aspect you're looking at... what it is, or what it does?

[ccravens]

I think, like beauty, it's in the eye of the beholder. Someone who paid $1000 to $5000 for their mandolin probably wouldn't bat an eye at paying $70 plus shipping for an external cage that has no moving parts, and looks like it came from the garden center at Wal Mart. Someone who paid $250 or $300 for their instrument (like me) might be more hesitant to shell out nearly a 3rd of the price of their mandolin for something that, by nature, is there simply to take up space.

Clearly there are more of the former camp than there are of the latter. It's supply and demand, and it's all subjective. I have no problem, for example, paying $70 for a guitar pickup.....but that's an electronic device that becomes a part of, and resides within the instrument. I may even eventually buy a tone gard myself......but just for fun, let's look at it a different way:

Who here would pay $70 for a guitar stand/music stand with no legs? (either of which probably has more metal than the TG) Who would see that as a good value?

It depends on which aspect you're looking at... what it is, or what it does?

Aside from the questionable analogies in your post, I believe that mandroid addressed the issue in his post (#17) on the previous page:

"there is a limit to how much better you can make a starter mandolin, if the top is not that resonant.."

[Ivan Kelsall]

From mandroid - "..The Varnish on the back of my 1922 A4 appreciates the TG,...". The finish on my first Lebeda mandolin did NOT appreciate the arm rest that i once owned - one of the turnbuckles pressed on the side & flaked a tiny piece off !. No more 'clamp on thingies' for me !!,
Ivan

[Billkwando]

Aside from the questionable analogies in your post, I believe that mandroid addressed the issue in his post (#17) on the previous page:

"there is a limit to how much better you can make a starter mandolin, if the top is not that resonant.."

What does that have to do with anything? That's a big "if".

As I mentioned previously (in this thread if I'm not mistaken) I can easily tell the dramatic difference the tone gard would make, because I've played my mandolin with the back isolated, as well as with it dampened by touching something (or the "lap test" as I call it), so your point really hasn't much to do with the price of tea in China. (My mandolin does have a solid top, as well, btw)

I've already mentioned that I might get a tone gard eventually, so I'm not minimizing its effect...quite the contrary. I know it would make a difference, or I wouldn't even be considering it.

Again, it depends on which aspect you're looking at... what it is, or what it does? I'm already sold on what it does.

The question is whether I can reconcile myself with paying a rather large amount of money for something that sells for much more than other similar, mass produced items containing more metal, and made with equal amounts of precision. How do you see my analogies as questionable, exactly?

Besides, to the consumer, perception is reality.

[Tobin]

The question is whether I can reconcile myself with paying a rather large amount of money for something that sells for much more than other similar, mass produced items containing more metal, and made with equal amounts of precision.

Whether you can reconcile yourself with it is up to you, but it's important to note that ToneGards are not mass-produced. Comparing it to something you see at Walmart, which is likely made in China by the millions, is slightly absurd and insulting. Tony makes a great product which he designed for a niche market. Like any unique niche product that is made with care, it is going to cost more than a similar-sized object of similar materials that's mass-produced.

As for it being a "rather large amount of money", most of us who use ToneGards consider them very reasonably priced for what they are and what they do.

[gweetarpicker]

Certain notes are naturally louder on a mandolin. In fact, the frequency response loudness curve for a mandolin will show several peaks. There are two types of peaks, resonance peaks of the wood itself and resonance peaks of the air chamber.

The lowest main air resonance peak, sometimes called A0, is very prominent and can significantly affect the bass/mid range response of the mandolin. This main air resonance peak approximates the Helmholtz frequency of the mandolin's body (like when you blow on a jug to get a bass note). Its pitch depends primarily on the volume of the instrument’s body and the size and shape of the soundhole. However, the mathematical equation for the Helmholtz frequency assumes a perfectly rigid object, and a mandolin is hardly rigid. The vibrations of the top, back and sides reduce the frequency of the main air resonance significantly. Unlike a violin, the mandolin player will cradle the mandolin with the his belly against the back suppressing the vibration and raising the main air resonance a few Hertz. Devices like the “Tone Guard” for mandolin do more than just allow the back to vibrate freely: They also have a subtle affect on the air resonance and the bass/mid response.

[Billkwando]

Whether you can reconcile yourself with it is up to you, but it's important to note that ToneGards are not mass-produced. Comparing it to something you see at Walmart, which is likely made in China by the millions, is slightly absurd and insulting. Tony makes a great product which he designed for a niche market. Like any unique niche product that is made with care, it is going to cost more than a similar-sized object of similar materials that's mass-produced.

As for it being a "rather large amount of money", most of us who use ToneGards consider them very reasonably priced for what they are and what they do.

Right, I get what you're saying. I was just waiting for the discussion to move along far enough (if it did) for those points to come into consideration. A lot of the points I've made are me simply playing devil's advocate, saying what some other folks are thinking, or have hinted at before..... but haven't been willing to ride straight into the wind and say directly, for the most part.

Again, I've been approaching the matter rather simplistically, as consumers often do, in order to illustrate the points I've made so far.

Let's just say that I myself was an uninformed consumer (we're saying it because it was true), because when I first came here in May, mentions of the tone gard were ubiquitous in the forum threads I was reading. It seemed most everyone had one, had used one, had seen one, etc. I thought "Oh, that's neat" and went where I always go to buy anything and everything, Amazon. No dice.

As an uninformed consumer, I started googling and found the official website. Naturally, as you can likely imagine from my posts, I stumbled upon the price and was like "WTF? Seriously? For that??"

This lead me to thinking about what I refer to as "the mandolin premium", which is the notion that anything for a mandolin is going to cost more, simply because it's for a mandolin (because mandolins are expensive, ye kennit? lol). I've certainly seen it in the past with sellers of other mandolin items (where they're selling the same item for both guitar and mandolin, but the mandolin version has a higher price).

Now again, this was me only a couple days into my mandolin research. This was before realizing that everybody knows everybody here, and that most sellers of mandolin-anything have accounts here and are nice guys that everybody knows (and as such, folks are reluctant to say anything that could be viewed as critical because "ol' Bob's such a nice guy, and he's just trying to make a livin'". Which is understandable and fine.)

I thought it might be interesting and enlightening to put the sacred cows out to pasture, and try for something just this side of the "bull in the china shop" approach. That is, to set aside the knowledge I have about the culture and community of this website (gained by reading many many many posts on this site, and doing a lot of research, as is my habit), and approach questions from the perspective of what I was not too long ago..... an outsider with an outside view. Say, if someone stumbled on to the site (like the guy that was wigging out about the accessories) under the assumption that this was only one of many mandolin forums (like there are for guitar) and NOT the assumption that if I say the wrong thing, I'll be run out of town and become a mandolin pariah.

I did the same thing with my thread on objectively comparing The Loar stock bridge to the CA bridge. As I mentioned in that thread, for all I knew I was gonna end up fighting folks if the comparisons were bad. Happily, the CA bridge is quantifiably awesome (I haz proof!). Now I know the tone gard is awesome as well, but I figured I would go ahead and share my opinions on the matter of price, since I know that I'm not the only one who feels that the TG is overpriced (at least judging by the admittedly simplistic criteria I've provided previously). "Snap judgement me" thinks it should cost $30 bucks, $50 max (let's set aside it being a niche item for now and just talk again about consumer perception).

Now when I throw out numbers like $30 and $50, I mean for the bog-standard "sun pattern" tone gard, made to fit the standard F or A shape, the ones that a bunch of "niche" stores already carry. Even "Snap judgement me" would think that custom work (design or dimension) should fetch a custom price. If I were to ask for, say, an uzumaki tone gard (a spiral) then yeah, that should cost moolah.

My next question is, does being a niche market preclude mass production? How niche is niche? How mass is mass? There have to be hundreds of these things out "in the wild" by now, if he's been making them since 1986. Why not patent it and hand it over to a factory for production? Naturally, you (Tobin) might not have these answers, but these are the things I wonder.

I mean, does the fellow have to make a trip to the garage every time he wants to make a tone gard? Is it literally a one-man operation?

Not to discount metalworking, because I know that is an art and science in its own right, but unlike hand carving mandolins from wood (where you can't necessarily trust, say, builders in Asia to get it right, if all the smack talk about "pac-rim" mandolins rings true) this is something that you ABSOLUTELY COULD farm out to a factory, at least for the standard sized ones, and have a high degree of faith (along with decent QC) that they would come out just as good as the ones made by the man himself.

If tone gards were so reasonably priced in everyone's eyes (not just those of the most vocal/trusted forum members) you wouldn't have people like me, trying to use viola shoulder rests, or like this guy, writing tutorials on how to twist one out of a coat hanger:

http://www.harmonycentral.com/articl...ele-tone-frame

So yeah, I expressed my opinion....somewhat cheekily, but not disrespectfully.

Conversely, I can relate to the other side of the coin, as someone who has created and sold the occasional handmade product. Very recently, I made my own mandolin armrest, and bought some extra clamps with the thought of perhaps making more. As with all projects, the first one is always the hardest, and requires the most trial and error and effort.......but when I finished it, my first thought was that I could never reasonably charge enough to cover the effort I put into it!

[Tobin]

Billkwando, that was a rather lengthy but well-explained post. I get where you're coming from. But to answer the question on manufacturing, there simply is no way to farm out the manufacture of a product that has no scale for manufacturers. If he were selling thousands or millions of these things, of course it would make sense to hire someone to make them. But like most things mandolin, there just isn't the economy of scale to support it. No manufacturer would even talk to you about making a small product that only has a couple hundred units to be built.

Ever wonder why there isn't a competitor making items similar to the ToneGard? There just isn't enough demand. The market isn't large enough for two players. And Tony already sells a very high quality product at about the lowest price you could expect for a hand-made niche product. If someone else thought they could swoop in and mass-produce a similar product to beat his price and take over the market, I'm sure they would have done so by now. But they haven't, because the market just really isn't big enough.

And aside from the scale, there is the issue of personal touch. Mandolin players, by and large, are different than the hordes of guitar players out there. Mandolin enthusiasts appreciate hand-made. While I'm sure they would accept a mass-produced ToneGard, it's certainly not something that needs to happen in order to bring the price point down enough to interest people. The mandolin community likes knowing who made their gear, and being able to talk to the man about it (Tony is, of course, a member here).

[ccravens]

It's called the free market.

If you don't like the price, don't get one, or make one yourself.

It doesn't have to be that complicated..

[JeffD]

Unlike a violin, the mandolin player will cradle the mandolin with the his belly against the back suppressing the vibration and raising the main air resonance a few Hertz. Devices like the “Tone Guard” for mandolin do more than just allow the back to vibrate freely: They also have a subtle affect on the air resonance and the bass/mid response.

If I get what you are saying, the changes in air resonance and response are because the back is free to vibrate. I mean, the ToneGard doesn't do anything else but allow the back to vibrate freely. Well it changes the feel of the instrument a little to but in terms of how the mandolin makes sound everything that changes is because the back is free.

[George R. Lane]

Bilkwando,

I challenge you to make or have someone make you a Tone Gard for less than what Tony sells them for. I have some knowledge of metal fabrication and it takes a good amount of time to make it and you have to be a master welder to make one look that good. So like Chris says "If you don't like the price, don't get one."

[George R. Lane]

Bilkwando,

I challenge you to make or have someone make you a Tone Gard for less than what Tony sells them for. I have some knowledge of metal fabrication and it takes a good amount of time to make it and you have to be a master welder to make one look that good. So like Chris says "If you don't like the price, don't get one."

I should also mention that I bought a $35.00 pick and I use everyday.