through a glass darkly

[billkilpatrick]

this is an elementary tuning question about the order of strings.

as i understand it, the mandolin is traditionally tuned in fourths, e-a-d-g. does that mean the "e" is bass and the "g" treble, or is it the other way round?

if, as i suspect, the order of strings is traditionally held to be re-entrant (i understand that to mean treble "e" up and bass "g" down, pointing towards the floor) then is it acceptable to reverse the order to something like a guitar? i started playing music on a guitar and find it very difficult to go down to find the bass notes.

i don't own a mandolin but i'm trying to convince my charango to behave like one. if you won't allow me - it - to make this transition then i'll call it a "citole" and suffer the consequences.

till then, dazed and confused and ever hopeful, i remain - bill

[Jim Garber]

Huh??

First of all... the very basics... a Neapolitan mandolin is tuned G-D-A-E low to high which makes it tuned in fifths. The lowest bass strings (G) are the the fourth course which is closest to you and the highest (E) is closest to the floor.

Same tuning as the violin. Of course you can tune your charango any way you want but in reality the charango is traditionally tuned mroe like a guitar, i.e. in fourths: G-C-E-A-E low to high.The highest strings is a fifth above the 2nd course.

As far as i understand it, re-entrant tuning refers to the situation where the lower pitched string (or strings) -- normally bass on the instrument -- would be pitched higher, the prime example would be the ukulele in which the fourth string would be higher than all but the very first. BTW the soprano uke is also tuned in fourths sim to the charango: g-C-E-A or a-D-F#-B. Ukes can be played like guitars lacking the two bass strings but either a fourth or a fifth higher.

I suppose you could string your charango like a mandolin but on the other hand, why not just get a mandolin?

Jim -- the Owner of too many mandolins, ukuleles and a charango

[vkioulaphides]

Bill, I think that some of the confusion stems from the fact that, on a plucked instrument, the strings that are lowest in pitch (i.e. as written on the staff) are highest geographically, i.e. closest to the player's head; and vice versa.

Jim is, of course, right: lowest (pitch) course is G, highest is E.

[Eugene]

Jim and Victor are, of course, both correct. #The Neapolitan mandolin and its descendents are tuned in fifths, like the violin: low to high (with respect to pitch, not gravity) g-g, d'-d', a'-a', e"-e". #Like the modern ukulele, 5-course guitars (popular from ca. 1600-1790) commonly used reentrant tuning: low to high a-a, d-d', g-g, b-b, e' (the A strings being one octave higher than predicted by the pattern). #Large bass lutes (aka chittarone or theorbo) required an odd reverse reentrant tuning where the strings that should be pitched highest (those nearest the floor) were tuned an octave low to not break fine gut at their massive scale length.

If you like tuning in fourths, Bill, you might want to consider a historic mandolino reproduction (six courses: g-g, b-b, e'-e', a'-a', d"-d", g"-g" or five courses: b-b, e'-e', a'-a', d"-d", g"-g") or modern mandolino Lombardo (g, b, e', a', d", g"). #The former will probably start around ca. US$2,000 from established luthiers. #Pieces of the latter type with a late 19th-early 20th c. vintage can be found at a few hundred with patience.

[vkioulaphides]

On "re-entrant tuning" and large, bass lutes, the Greek laouto (at least as played on most islands —Crete excepted— and the mainland) is tuned: cc'-Gg-dd'-aa

It's really a "G-lute", if you know what I mean. The lowest course (in pitch) serves as a subdominant drone in traditional usage, i.e. not in the linear, "classical" sense. If I had one, I might in fact choose to lower the uppermost (in pitch) course to end up with: cc'-Gg-dd-gg , sort of bouzouk/Celtic tuning.

Bill, (as per the "subtitle" to my username), fourths are good, IMHO, for larger-scaled instruments than the mandolin. Again, I am not speaking of historical usage but strictly in anatomical/mechanical terms: Fifths are just fine for the dandy, little mandolin. Around mando(lon)cello scale, I start to hear a little voice whispering in my ear: "Try fourths, fourths..."

In fact, I have occasionally fantasized buying/commissioning a moderately-sized bass lute —folkie, simple, robust— in four courses, but stringing it with guitar (steel) strings, i.e. as per the guitar's lowest four strings, but in double courses. Not being an organologist, I lack the skill and the imagination as to what I would actually call this instrument. But the mechanical aspect, I trust, is self-evident: With a scale of 60-some cm. (maybe a wee bit LESS than guitar?...) and tuned in fourths, it would be a marvelously sonorous AND practical "plucked bass" for ensembles involving bowlback mandolins, mandolas, etc. Ah, dreams..

[billkilpatrick]

grazie -

i'm thoroughly confused. eugene says g-g, d'-d', a'-a', e"-e" is tuned in 5ths and vkioulaphides says EADG is tuned in 4ths.

would i be correct in counting the notes between one string and another (to include sharps) like this: E (first string) - F - F# - G - G# - A (second string)? if so, i make it 4 steps between one string and the next. is that right? or do i count F - F# - G - G# and the A to make it 5 steps?

on some of the mandolin photos i've seen, the bass strings are closest to the floor. would that be a left-handed mandolin i'm looking at?...or a transposed photo?

what about the idea of the "citole" being grandfather to the mandolin as the oud is grandpa' to the lute? that would push mandolin roots back a bit.

vkioulaphides - the oud maybe just what you're looking for. i wouldn't use steel strings though ("popping bridges, batman!") i use my oud as bass sometimes when playing with my fellow middle-aged, middle-age enthusiasts up in the village. sometimes (especially with a horn plectrum) i can even make myself heard!

jim and eugene - i'd love to get a mandolin. i troll e-bay on a regular basis but quality (in my unfortunate experience) doesn't usually run that deep. also...i promised - solemly - i promised that i would never...ever...'honest, honey'...never buy another instrument...

thanks again for all your help.

still in tune - bill

[John Flynn]

Wow. You classical guys really like to complicate things. You just tune the darn thing like a fiddle and then you play it!

[Jim Garber]

i'm thoroughly confused. #eugene says #g-g, d'-d', a'-a', e"-e" is tuned in 5ths and vkioulaphides says EADG is tuned in 4ths.

Verrrrrrrrry simply:
gdae low pitch to high = fifth intervals (mandolin and violin)
eadg low pitch to high = fourth intervals (bass and guitar)

Jim

[Bob A]

Let's see if I can confuse the issue even more.

When you tune in fourths, the next string is sounded on the fifth fret. When you tune in fifths, the next string is sounded on the seventh.

If you play bass or guitar, you're looking at EADG, from lowest (sounding, yet closest to the ceiling, if you play reight-handed) to highest (sounding, yet nearer the floor). (All these directions imply a more or less upright instrumentalist. Upright relative to the gravity field, that is. We make no moral or ethical judgements on musicians, who suffer enough).

I can't tell you to tune a mandolin like a violin, because then the strings are parallel to the floor, so all bets are off.

Of course both Victor and Eugene are correct. EADG is not congruent with GDAE. They're, ah, I dunno. If you turn the mandolin upside down, you'd have your EADG, but it would still be in fifths. Just the wrong strings would be on top, unless you're a left-handed player. Jimmie Hendrix played left-handed, but he also used his teeth. I'm beginning to understand why.

Here's another helpful tip: when tuning an instrument in fourths, you can get a harmonic over the fifth fret, which would be two octaves above the open string; then get a harmonic over the seventh fret of the next higher (sounding; closer to the floor) string, which would be the octave of the fifth, no, ah, anyway, the two harmonics should sound the same. There. But for a mandolin, the harmonic over the seventh fret would be the same note as the harmonic over the 12th fret of the next higher (actually lower) string.

I trust that clarifies the issue. Pay no attention to those who would lead you astray.

For our next explanation, ask us about temperament, which has little to do with temper, as it is commonly understood, but it will quickly lead to loss of same. And even though it applies to metal-strung instruments, it is not referring to the metallurgical issue of temper, even though without is we'd be unable to make the strings at all, I suspect.

At any rate, it is obvious to me that you need a mandolin. Insofar as you've undertaken not to purchase Yet Another Instrument, you would be well advised to barter for it. If you were to trade a decent gas-operated riding mower, for example, you could get the instrument and open up the leisure time to play it as well. And you'd be saving your hearing to boot. And for the lawn, I'd suggest a goat. You could charge the neighborhood kids to hang out with your kid, and of course they fertilise for free, and can be eaten when winter comes and fodder goes away.

And fodder will be going away, once mudder finds out what has gone down. But at least he'll have a mandolin to comfort him.

[Michael H Geimer]

LOL! I see Bill's confusion. We're all told to tune it in fifths, but start with the first course (e), then go look at the second course (a) ... hey, wait a sec! That's a forth!

Any historical explanations as to why we would name/count the courses in reverse order from how we actually tune them?

[billkilpatrick]

'jems!...

gotacha'...

4 steps forward...5 steps forward

...right!!

check out this:

http://www.crab.rutgers.edu/~pbutler/citole.html

thanks again - bill

[Jim Garber]

We're all told to tune it in fifths, but start with the first course (e), then go look at the second course (a) ... hey, wait a sec! That's a forth!

That is a fourth down but a fifth up. Funny, but I always tune from the g-string up not from the e.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

[QUOTE]"eugene says #g-g, d'-d', a'-a', e"-e" is tuned in 5ths and vkioulaphides says EADG is tuned in 4ths"

Yes, Bill, yes. Nothing to be confused about.