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Thread: Genius/prodigy and discipline?

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    Registered User Randi Gormley's Avatar
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    Default Genius/prodigy and discipline?

    I just got back from what I tell my coworkers is "music camp" and wanted to toss this question out to the café. Can genius/prodigality be undisciplined? Or is discipline a necessary requirement?

    What made me wonder is a 9-year-old child who was proficient on violin (or so we were told) was dropped off in our mandolin class because mandolin is fingered the same and apparently someone in the family thought there was a carryover. This wasn't the first time someone dropped off a young child who played some version of fiddle/violin to pick up mandolin. The same thing happened a few years ago with the child of musicians and IIRC the child was about the same age.

    I have no idea how well either child played violin/fiddle. In one case the parent assured us that, even though the child had "just" picked up the mandolin (literally was handed one immediately before class), that they were brilliant at violin/fiddle. The other was nearly the same, but it was more a piece of gossip that the child was some sort of prodigy.

    In both cases, the child was more a distraction than anything else. Neither could sit still, could sit in their chair for longer than 2 minutes, were obviously bored to tears, kept sliding down onto the floor until told by the teacher to please get back in their seat, may or may not have been able to finger notes but put nothing into it except a couple of strokes looking like they would want to be any where else. In one case, we suffered through the child for 3 of our 5 classes (the other two, the child was in a guitar class where the exact same behavior occurred -- according to my-husband-the-guitar-player who was unfortunate enough to pick up the child that I lost in my class). In the other, the teacher suggested the child would do better with some private lessons tailored specifically to them and the parent acquiesced.

    But I wondered whether these children were actual geniuses or prodigies, even on their violin/fiddle. Can you be that dedicated to your instrument/music while being completely undisciplined in behavior relating to any piece of music? Wouldn't genius or prodigality imply at least musical discipline?

    Anyway, that's a long way of asking for thoughts, but I am. Some of you have known geniuses or prodigals. What's your take?
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    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Genius/prodigy and discipline?

    Remember, in Lake Wobegon, all the children are above average.

    It's summer camp time; parents need a place to warehouse their kids for a week and will come up with any excuse to justify putting them in a particular place. Sometimes without consulting the kids.
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    Default Re: Genius/prodigy and discipline?

    Could you clarify a little more about what you mean "behavior relating to any piece of music"?

    It''s not uncommon for particular proclivities to occur simultaneously with other deficits in persons with autism spectrum challenges, for example. Many of these deficits occur as social "abnormalities" which often or typically present as behavioral difficulties, or other habits or tendencies such as you mention.

    (Personal observation: today's kids are growing up *much* differently than we)

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    Default Re: Genius/prodigy and discipline?

    Quote Originally Posted by Randi Gormley View Post
    ...In both cases, the child was more a distraction than anything else. Neither could sit still, could sit in their chair for longer than 2 minutes, were obviously bored to tears, kept sliding down onto the floor until told by the teacher to please get back in their seat, may or may not have been able to finger notes but put nothing into it except a couple of strokes looking like they would want to be any where else. In one case, we suffered through the child for 3 of our 5 classes (the other two, the child was in a guitar class where the exact same behavior occurred -- according to my-husband-the-guitar-player who was unfortunate enough to pick up the child that I lost in my class). In the other, the teacher suggested the child would do better with some private lessons tailored specifically to them and the parent acquiesced. ...
    Sounds like a young Mozart.

    Genius? Prodigy? Potential? That's for the future to decide. Behavior problem? Sure. Most hyperactive kids, which sounds like what you're describing, have extremely high intelligence. They're just traveling at a much higher rate of speed than the rest of us.

    My wife and I, as a young couple, almost decided not to have kids after being exposed to this type of thing. When we finally decided to have kids, guess what kind of kids we had? Yup. Then we understood. But our kids worked their ways past their problems, their talents are amazing and we are hugely proud of them, especially now that they're adults and we're not responsible for them. We do still care though, perhaps more than ever.

    A parent's responsibility? As much as possible, nurture the child, while keeping them out of other people's faces. It's very, very hard and sometimes the parent just needs a break. There's no perfect answer.
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    Default Re: Genius/prodigy and discipline?

    My wife ran a Youth Symphony with 400 or so kids, ages 8 to 18. There were many over the years that she could not put in the top symphony, even though that was their level because they were 10 years old. They just didn't have the attention span necessary. Then there was the boy who was eight going on thirty, who was studying at Julliard by the time he was twelve.

    I agree they were probably not interested and not there by choice. Then there are the parents who think there child plays great when they don't, regardless of what they're told by music educators. They believe they've been shafted at every audition.
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    Registered User SincereCorgi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Genius/prodigy and discipline?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrmando View Post
    Remember, in Lake Wobegon, all the children are above average.

    It's summer camp time; parents need a place to warehouse their kids for a week and will come up with any excuse to justify putting them in a particular place. Sometimes without consulting the kids.
    Yup. I meet a lot more delusional parents than I do prodigies.

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Genius/prodigy and discipline?

    Yeah, it's a question about the parents' discipline, IMHO. Poor kids. So much expectation, so little care.
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    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Genius/prodigy and discipline?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertram Henze View Post
    Yeah, it's a question about the parents' discipline, IMHO. Poor kids. So much expectation, so little care.
    And that pretty much sums it up. I've dealt with kids from youth symphonies to fiddle clubs for 30 years, many really talented kids scattered about. But prodigies? Nope. That's a different orbit. Those kids don't go to music camps, they're already tended to by the time they're 8-10. The kid may have been a pretty good violinist, but what possessed the parents to stick him in a camp he clearly didn't want to be at can only be described, as Martin said, as babysitting.

    Perhaps the parents wanted their kid to be exposed to different forms of music, which is great, but the setting was obviously wrong. The whole behavior problem-disguised-as-prodigy thing doesn't work for me. The few "prodigies" I've met through the years through other programs weren't behavior problems, just amazingly brilliant.

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    Default Re: Genius/prodigy and discipline?

    Seems to me it would behoove everyone to set age categories for these camps. 'Cause i'm all about behoovin.
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    Registered User Charlie Bernstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: Genius/prodigy and discipline?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Seems to me it would behoove everyone to set age categories for these camps. 'Cause i'm all about behoovin.
    Ain't misbehoovin'!

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    Default Re: Genius/prodigy and discipline?

    I have occasionally had someone ask me for private lessons for a child, which I don't generally do, although I do teach and work with kids in a group setting all the time.

    Without exception, if I have been told by a parent that their child is really keen and desperate to learn, I have found it was in fact the parent who was keen, and usually the child didn't especially want to be there.

    I enjoy teaching young people to play, but I have found that they generally enjoy a class or groupwork situation more.
    If I have a particular interest in a young person's playing, I will sometimes ask them to come to my house for a private lesson but by then I know that the student is keen and there will usually be a particular reason for my private lesson, such as an audition for something.
    In Scotland we don't usually have mixed adult and child classes. Since the tragic school shooting in Dunblane a few years ago, people who work with young people must go through a process called Disclosure and mixed age groups are not encouraged, so it would be unusual to have a youngster in what sounds like an adult camp, if I am understanding Randi correctly.

    If it was a camp for children, then that's different, but I have to say that such activities are usually very popular and successful here in Scotland.

    I have an involvement with an organisation called Feis Rois.

    http://feisrois.org.uk/
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    Default Re: Genius/prodigy and discipline?

    I'll add a level to this conversation.
    I have been to many camps where people of both young and mature ages were in classes that they did not have the skill to participate in. They all to often wasted class time with beginner level questions. And weren't astute enough to realize that they were wasting the other attendees time and money.
    In my opinion it is up to the teacher to enforce minimum standards of behavior and levels of ability based on the general descriptions in the application or on the website.
    Yes we were all beginners at some point. I stopped registering for intermediate classes when I understood the concepts being taught and already knew most of the tunes being taught. So I find myself in advanced classes where at times a tune taught is beyond my level of ability. < Sigh ... But not most of the time. And I work at the lesson techniques and tunes shared for as long as it takes to gather them in.
    When a teacher fails to control their class in both behavior and content they need to be negatively reviewed by those in the class. Not sent on without the camp organizers hearing of it. R/
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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Genius/prodigy and discipline?

    I agree with the earlier comment that an actual prodigy won't be at a music camp. They get slotted into private instruction early on, and stay there. What you describe sounds like a baybysitting drop-off, and very inconsiderate for the other attendees.

    The local week-long fiddle music camp in my neck of the woods (Fiddle Tunes at Centrum) handles this kind of thing about as well as can be expected, I guess. There is a reduced fee for ages under 21 attending the workshops, but it's still pretty expensive. The cost probably helps reduce the use of classes as babysitters for adult musicians attending the festival. There is also an expectation that young musicians in this category are "proficient and experienced," according to the FAQ.

    In addition, there is a "Kids Track" tuition at a much lower fee ($125) for ages 5 to 12. They have two events in the morning: one music class, and then a choice of playing party games or joining in Kids Band Lab where they'll play at a concert on the last day. Kids signed up for this don't attend the adult/under-21 workshops, but they can attend all the concerts and evening dances. So it effectively siphons off distractions from the daily workshops. At least I don't recall any problems the times I attended the festival, although it's been a while since I've been there. What I remember of the "under 21's" in the workshops, including kids as young as 10 or 12, was that they mostly blew away the adults in the room with their skills, and were there to learn.

    Of course, you need a large enough event and enough staff to handle something like a separate kid's activities schedule, plus all the usual insurance coverage, staff vetting, etc. It might not be possible at a smaller event, where one would have to rely on age limits or behavior standards to avoid disrupting classes.

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Genius/prodigy and discipline?

    Quote Originally Posted by SincereCorgi View Post
    Yup. I meet a lot more delusional parents than I do prodigies.
    Just statistically, delusional parents are much much more likely.
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    Default Re: Genius/prodigy and discipline?

    What did the children's behavior accomplish?

    a) They were able to avoid having to play the mandolin
    b) They were able to avoid learning in that particular lesson
    c) They were effectively removed from a situation they didn't want to be in
    d) They may have been prevented from returning to such lessons ever again, which they likely are happy about

    So, it sounds like these kids knew what they were doing.

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Genius/prodigy and discipline?

    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    So, it sounds like these kids knew what they were doing.
    You are right. That is why I should never be a parent. The chess game is just way above my head.
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    Registered User Randi Gormley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Genius/prodigy and discipline?

    Yeah, there was definitely the feel of babysitting involved in both of the kids -- and alas, the venue is too small for a separate child's track, although that would be a great solution. There was another child, about the same age, who sat in front of me for at least 2 of the concerts who was absolutely riveted during each 40-minute set. he only got up to wander during breaks. so there's that.

    I guess to answer Catmandu2's question, I was wondering if musical genius/prodigality carries with it a natural focus on and intense interest in music of any stripe. So if a prodigy is a prodigy on fiddle, they would -- by their own nature -- bring that intense focus to learning another instrument and if the entire world of music entrances them, not just their specific instrument. I guess it would depend on individual temperament, but i was wondering if genius itself carried with it some sort of internal discipline, at least within the point of genius.
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    Default Re: Genius/prodigy and discipline?

    Well I wouldn't be able to offer any insight regarding "genius" or citing case examples or anything. However, in my experience proclivities and aptitudes occur in all manner - as you say, temperamentally variable. I'm aware of both scenarios: particular aptitudes occurring in one area - say, violin, or percussion, etc - as well as more diffuse, multi-dimensional interest. I couldnt say how "disipline" applies generally unless we were looking at case studies. I imagine there are plenty of books and articles written on the subject by those who have particular interest. Personally I have some interest in this area given my own experiences, and having a particular interest in aspects as creativity, arts, psychology, etc.

    Fwiw, what you write above describes much of my own experiences with music and art. Succinctly, I'm inspired by *all* creative endeavors pretty much equally. And the longer I live I find that these are all fairly equivalent analogs of expression. I happen to gravitate more to music as I was provided formal instruction at an early age, and given my disposition of having to do something with my hands at all times (packing a musical instrument assuages my basic sensory needs, as well as having opportunity for creative expression as the will occurs. A musical instrument, for my needs, is the perfect tool). I happen to find most all instruments and forms I've tried to be almost equally gratifying, at one time or another. For me, music is limitless. I'm just as inclined to regard it as sculpture or poetry.

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    Default Re: Genius/prodigy and discipline?

    I remember being at a tenor banjo workshop given by Kieran Hanrahan at the Feakle Fest many years ago. It was mixed adults/kids and to a one every kid was leagues better than the adults there! Most of the kids had nicer banjos too! Unlike Randi's experience these kids all seemed to really enjoy the 3 days of classes, had loads of questions for Kieran, and were excited about learning new tunes from him and picking his brain about what ornamentation and variations he used in each tune. Very refreshing and humbling!
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    Registered User dwc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Genius/prodigy and discipline?

    It is true that these kids probably weren't true prodigies. It is an overused term, and parents often/always overestimate the abilities of their offspring.

    That being said, I don't think of myself as a prodigy, but I am neuroatypical and as a child had interests and abilities that were hyper focused and quite specific. It is possible, although unlikely, that the kids in question were hyper focused on violin and viewed mandolin as a waste of time, and if they were true prodigies who were also neuroatypical, they might have lacked the verbiage to articulate it. I certainly would not have been able to at that age.

  32. #21

    Default Re: Genius/prodigy and discipline?

    Two disparate examples. Dwc, did you find that your proclivities carried over into adulthood? found that despite my growing range of exposure, education, and interests my obsessive inclinations only "worsened." Now my son is also on the spectrum and I see him having the same traits and proclivities though manifesting differently.

    Wrt "clinical" perspectives, there's a lot of literature in music therapy that may be of interest Randi. There's a great site called "Voices" that provides access to several years of research papers, ethnographic articles, case studies, etc. Recommended.

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    Registered User dwc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Genius/prodigy and discipline?

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    Dwc, did you find that your proclivities carried over into adulthood? I found that despite my growing range of exposure, education, and interests my obsessive inclinations only "worsened." ..,.
    It is difficult to answer objectively. I am not a psychiatrist, and I can only speak about my own experiences, which, being neuroatypical, is very difficult. Over the years, in conjunction with therapists and psychiatrists, I have learned to function more successfully in social situations, which has led to greater socialization, which has led to less isolation, which has allowed me to be more well rounded.

    It is an interesting " chicken and the egg" scenario. How much of my intense focus on a narrow range of interests was the result of the social isolation inherent to being neuroatypical, and how much of my social isolation was due to not being involved in things typical kids were?

    What I do know is that I still struggle to understand and process information in the context of social situations. And when I become uncomfortable, I become withdrawn, I reduce or eliminate verbiage, my repetitive mannerisms become more profound, and I focus on specific thoughts and actions that make me feel comfortable.

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  36. #23

    Default Re: Genius/prodigy and discipline?

    Yes behavioral strategies are thought as effective approaches. Resources certainly are better than once were with greater cultural understanding. My wife is a therapist who's had many such clients. We have three in our household - which my wife calls "neuroatypical house." Personally, after struggling as you mention throughout my life, I'm privileged to maintain a life outside of normal social vectors - which was a bit of a lifesaver (though my wife still tries mightily encouraging me to try to be a LITTLE more typical ).

    Thanks for sharing.

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    Default Re: Genius/prodigy and discipline?

    The geniuses here were the parents... They put their "prodigy" kid in a safe place for less money than the cost of a baby sitter.

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    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Genius/prodigy and discipline?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagger Gordon View Post

    I have an involvement with an organisation called Feis Rois.

    http://feisrois.org.uk/
    That's a very interesting program. A few years back (maybe 10 now?) the concert series hosted what was then Bearfoot's Bluegrass Camp For Kids, which was a great way for kids to begin playing, and got some older kids interested in alternative music. One really young kid that started playing at the program still plays with the fiddle club (performing at a nursing home this weekend!) and one older kid, who was then almost in Junior High, ended up a music major at Ithaca. She's now back in town, helping with the fiddle club, and getting more local gigs than you can imagine. Another kid from that same camp ended up a church organist, and studies religious music at a graduate school somewhere (can't remember).

    The point of that is the program or camp needs to either be directed towards kids, or have completely separate programs just for kids. In order to attract enough kids, the organizers need to spend a bit of time cultivating local contacts through music teachers, the public schools, other more traditional music programs, etc. None of those kids that I mentioned, while they were at camp, looked like they'd be anything special. Just good, interested kids, with the typical fidgety behavior you'd see in any normal kid.

    Many of the fiddle camps that aren't the super-star ones (like Alasdair Frazer's Valley of The Moon camp, or Jay Ungar's Ashokan camps) basically need to take the occasional straggler who isn't up to snuff just to pay the bills. The costs of running those, depending on where they're held, can be high when lodging, food and instructors are figured in. I can see why some organizers are tempted by a less-than-stallar student...

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