Antique case - how to preserve

[sbhikes]

Off topic a bit, but maybe someone here will know how I can preserve or care for an old violin case. The outside of it is leather and when I touch it, it gets crumbly bits on my hands. Is there anything I can do to preserve it? It looks really cool and it's not musty or moldy, the inside is still nice, and it doesn't have any bugs, so it's still serviceable. It is quite old as it had belonged to someone's grandfather and that someone was about my age, and my own grandfather would have been an adult in the 1920s.

[multidon]

Are you certain it's leather? Lots of old violin cases used leatherette or a similar material. A real leather violin case is quite pricey, and would have been back then, too. If it's leatherette a lightly sprayed coat of shellac would get the job done. If it really is leather, I would try to rejuvenate it and preserve with a product made specifically for that. Try an upscale luggage store and see what they recommend.

[Tobin]

Yeah, any answer is going to very much depend on what it's actually covered with. It's probably not actually leather if it was a production case. Can you post photos of it?

I love old fiddle cases, and I have way more of them than I actually have fiddles to put in them. I've often thought about trying to repair and restore the exteriors on a couple, but it seems like a lost cause once they get to a certain point. Recovering them with a similar faux leather would obviously be the best way to freshen them up while still maintaining their original appearance. But some of the mojo or "cool factor" gets lost. Unfortunately, I just don't know of any way to truly fix a case cover material once it starts crumbling away like you describe. You can try to glue down all the little pieces as they crack, but that will be a futile effort in the long run.

[sbhikes]

I'll try to get a picture late. I forgot my phone today. I'm certain it is leather. There is almost more of the brown inner layer than the outer black layer in many spots. It's pretty crumbly, like dust.

[sbhikes]

Here are pictures. I'm not sure that you'll be able to tell anything for sure from them.

[multidon]

Looks like leatherette to me, as I suspected, with a faux crocodile pattern pressed in. I would pick off or glue down the little pieces that are sticking up now. Then I would spray the whole thing lightly with some Bullseye satin shellac, the kind in the rattle can. Just a light coat should be enough to keep the rest stuck diwn.

[Timbofood]

I bought some stuff on eBay called "Leather Honey" this might be a little bit of a stretch for the stuff but, it's softened up an old pair of Justin's better than expected!
After a second look, I think I am going to lean toward the "leatherette" theory, I might try a small section with the honey stuff and see how it takes anyway.
Steve Kirkland might have some suggestions, he is a "Case Guy"! Sorry Steve, if I got your last name wrong.

[Jeff Mando]

Or, as my buddy used to say, "if that doesn't work, you can always take it out back and shoot it"

[Ivan Kelsall]

It's flaking badly & needs something to consolidate it to prevent that happening. Multidon has it - you need to spray it with a light coating of some type of clear 'varnish' to stick it down. Using a brush to apply anything, 'might' flake off even more of the covering,but, if the varnish was thinned down,& a soft haired brush was used,that could be ok. At least you could apply it just on the covering,& not on the latches
Ivan

[sbhikes]

Thank you. I was hoping there was something to spray on it. It's not so much that it's a precious thing that needs restoration as it's getting brown dust all over my clothes and anything it comes in contact with. So anything that might prevent or lessen that would help me out. I'll see if I can find the Bullseye stuff or something similar at the hardware store.

[Loudloar]

No, please not shellac. It is genuine leather; cowhide embossed with an exotic texture. Shellac will just put a layer on top of the crumbling leather, which won't be of much help.

Sometimes leather is just old and dry and all it needs is to be re-moisturized. If it's flaking off a lot it's possible it was cooked in a hot attic, and there may be limits to the ability to restore it. What you want to use on old dry leather is a leather reconditioning product. I like this product: https://www.tandyleather.com/en/prod...nditioner-8-oz There are other equivalent products that are good too. An auto leather seat restoration cream would be good too. You may need several applications to re-moisturize the leather. Do Not use saddle soap or neats foot oil. When you've finished with the reconditioning cream, you could touch up bare spots with leather dye and/or shoe polish.

You are always welcome to visit the Facebook page on vintage cases. We discuss restoration there. https://www.facebook.com/groups/vint...strumentcases/

Steve

[CES]

Steve,

Why not neats foot or saddle soap? What about mink oil? Not questioning/doubting you at all, just genuinely curious and wanna be edumacated...

[Loudloar]

Good question Chuck. Both saddle soap and neats foot oil can rot any stitching that may be present. (Not a major issue on this case although there is stitching on the valance.) Saddle soap is also very harsh, and not recommended for antique leather. Neats foot oil is oil from cow shin bones (in old England "Neat" was an ancient word for cow.) It can leave leather oily and the oil can get on anything it touches. It will also darken leather to nearly black. I guess it can waterproof leather if that's your goal. (But there are better waterproofing products.) I think both of these were ancient products from an era when there wasn't anything better. Don't know about Mink Oil, but I think just oil isn't what you want to restore old dry leather. The modern restoration products are based on lanolin, which is really good for the leather. The Dr. Jackson stuff I recommended leaves the leather soft and smelling great.

Steve

[multidon]

I still think my suggestion about shellac is a good one if it's leatherette, but if Steve believes it's real leather, I defer to his expertise!

Steve, how are you able to tell its real leather just from the photo? I was bothered by the light brown color with the thin much darker embossed layer on top. I've seen leatherette like that. I don't have much experience with cases but I've seen a vintage book or three.

[Loudloar]

I'm not certain what you mean by "leatherette". It could mean bonded leather, which is ground up leather fibers that have been reformed into a sheet. Or it could mean a paper-based product that has been embossed with a leather texture. I've never seen the latter on a hard shell case. I've only seen bonded leather on one case and it was about the thickness of paper. It was breaking apart and looked nothing like the case above. So bonded leather is practically unknown on cases.

Nearly all hard shell cases are covered with imitation leather on a fabric backing. Common brand names were Keratol and Fabrikoid. They were made from a mixture of celuloid and linseed oil applied to a fabric backing and passed through metal rollers to give it a leather texture. When these products get worn it's easy to see the fabric backing. After WWII a new product was developed called Tolex which was a similar product using vinyl.

In the prewar era it was not unusual for higher quality violin cases to be covered with cowhide or even exotic hides like seal, walrus, alligator, etc. What we are seeing on this case is cowhide that's been run through embossing rollers and then had a finish applied on the surface. (It's not vat dyed, which would penetrate the leather.) The finish is wearing and flaking off. I've seen lots and lots of these old leather covered violin cases. This one looks pretty typical.

Steve

[multidon]

Yeah Steve, I was meaning the paper based product. I've seen it on book bindings with that same general appearance. But I didn't know it was not used on instrument cases.

I apologize to the OP for chiming in with poor advice and I hope he is continuing to read all of this.. Don't use the shellac!

[Timbofood]

I told you Steve would help rescue this little gem! Thanks Steve.

[Loudloar]

No worries Don. Discussion is always good, and your thinking is really not far off. See the Keratol ad below, for use in bookbinding. This new imitation leather which was perfected in the 1890's was used for a very wide range of applications: auto upholstery, furniture, bookbinding, luggage, instrument cases, belts & purses, and the list goes on. There were various grades and weights, depending on the application. (Books used a thinner, often paper-based version, but instrument cases used the fabric backing. And auto seats were heavier yet.)

Chipboard cases do use something similar to what you are thinking of. It's cardboard with a fairly thin surface layer. Now days it would be vinyl, but in the prewar era I believe it was a similar layer of the celluloid & linseed oil mixture but on paper rather than fabric. Regardless, even the old chipboard case are fairly abrasion resistant.

Steve

[Timbofood]

You know, I am amazed at the amount of information which can be gleaned from this forum! I have learned so much from everyone here it's just fun to read and learn here!
Steve, I still have not gathered the fortitude to open the lining of my case to reinstall the foot but, I will!

[Ivan Kelsall]

Whatever you decide to use - it needs VERY gentle application. Any rubbing of the surface is out of the question,so you either need a spray can of something,or something that you can lightly brush on.

You might have a look at this sort of stuff - the 'Fixatives' used in artwork to fix 'whatever' to paper mountings. :-
https://www.jacksonsart.com/sennelie...CABEgKPYPD_BwE .

I have a Faux leather watch box on which the surface was crumbling to hell - i used my wife's hair spray lacquer to 'fix' it & it's still fine,
Ivan

[Loudloar]

My 2 cents: I've used plenty of Fixative as an artist. As the link says, it's for pastels or charcoal, to keep the artwork from getting smeared. (Otherwise one wipe of a hand could destroy a charcoal sketch.) It's intended to apply an invisible, smudge-proof layer. Won't do much for antique leather. For that faux leather watch box it may be that hair spray remelted the material and was a good fix. But we're talking about a cowhide covered violin case here. Now I've seen some old leather cases where the leather is crumbling to dust and flakes off every time you touch it. At this point there is not much left to save. Leather conditioning cream may help re-moisturize it but it will still be weak. But the case we're discussing doesn't look that far gone, and should respond well to a good leather restoration product.

Steve

[Timbofood]

I had 20+ years in the art material field and a fixative is less "durable" than what's needed on a case.think the difference between greasing a cake pan and greasing, lining with parchment and a secondary greasing.
Touch is one thing, any semblance of durability is, another.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Loudloar / Tim - As part of my apprenticeship,i worked in our companies Technical Publication's dept. for 3 months. To fix 'loose' artwork to workboards prior to photographing them,we used a similar Fixative to the one i posted in the link :- " Will adhere to paper, canvas, glass, ceramic, wood or porcelain." It can be pretty tough stuff. - if you get the right one,a couple of applications could 'fix' most things.

However - in some instances, (carefully avoids using the word 'cases'),i'd simply buy a new case for use & leave the old one 'as is'. Unless it could be really sealed in a way that would prevent any further flaking,it's best left alone. I wonder if the sort of 'varnish' that's applied to art work ie. portraits etc.,would work. I suspect that it would 'fix' the surface,but that it wouldn't be durable enough.

Plenty of 'fixers' - but 'durability' is the main factor to consider (IMHO),
Ivan

[William Smith]

Hey Loud Loar-Steve, What would you recomend for cleaning the outside of Paganoni cases as I have no idea of what John uses for the covering! Thanks

[Loudloar]

Paganoni covers his cases with Tolex. Fundamentally the same as any modern case, although he uses a thin vintage style. (Tolex is now an expired trademark but still used as a generic description.) That's the standard product since not long after WWII for all cases, speakers, amps. It comes in different textures, colors, thicknesses, but it's all made of a durable vinyl on a fabric foundation. Pretty impervious to anything and doesn't need any special "treatment." Just use any mild household cleaner. If you want to "shine it up" use any product for vinyl auto interiors.

Steve