Clip on mic (DPA 4099v) or pick up?

[Denman John]

We are in the position where we need some kind of amplification for our son's mandolin and have been looking at what options are available, and are asking for some input. We had a K&K pickup in a previous mandolin that worked, but weren't very impressed with the sound that it produced. We recently talked to and heard a fiddle player use a DPA 4099V clip on mic that sounded really good. Loud sound coming from the stage with monitors and the mic sounded very natural and had no feedback issues. We talked to her after the show and asked her about it and she loved it. It was loaned to her from the sound crew but said it sounded much better than her own clip on mic (sorry don't know which brand) and said that she was going to buy one when she got home. Would this work well on a mandolin? Would there be situations where this mic wouldn't be optimal? Do you have to run it through a D.I.? Is there any other "ad ons" that would have to be purchased along with what comes in the box? I guess I'm asking if anyone has used the DPA 4099v mic and what there impressions were on a mandolin.

Thanks in advance
John

[foldedpath]

I'm a big fan of that mic, and own several. I use 'em on mandolin, octave mandolin, guitar (clipped over the upper bout with the guitar mount), and for any fiddlers I'm gigging with. Terrific mounting system, good feedback rejection, and a clean sound. A little edgy on top, but I roll off the high EQ a hair to keep that under control. You don't need a DI, but you do need phantom power, so just connect direct to the PA mixer with a microphone cable. The DPA 4099 also works great with wireless body packs, using plug adapters.

I have always preferred microphones to pickups, and for me, this is the solution to get mobility like a pickup, with a much better sound. Here's what it looks like on my mandolin:



Now, there are some caveats for this mic, or the less expensive Audio-Technica Pro 35. There is better feedback rejection than using an external mic, but you'll still need to be more careful about feedback control than using a pickup. This isn't a problem if you know what you're doing with a PA system, or working with someone who does. It's just a question of careful monitor placement and keeping stage volume levels under control.

The fiddler you mentioned using a 4099 will have less trouble with feedback than a mandolin player, because a fiddle is about 1000% louder than a mandolin to begin with (okay, I exaggerate), so there is more headroom against feedback. I've had no feedback issues, but I play a style of music that isn't loud to begin with, and on gigs like weddings or other controlled performance where there isn't a blasting stage volume. If you're playing in a band with drums and electric guitars, a pickup is a better option. There are good "feedback eliminator" devices that will buy you a few extra db gain before feedback, but they should be thought of as last-resort backup (IMO), not the primary way to control feedback.

A few other things to consider: You do have to mount and dismount the mic every time you use it. There is a convenience factor with pickups, where you just plug in and go. I think that's one big reason why people are attracted to pickups vs. mics (until they get fed up with the sound quality). A pickup is much easier to use with floor pedals, if you need that. It's possible to use floor pedals with a clip-on mic, but it's a little more complicated due to the need for phantom power. I've done it, with either a battery preamp that supplies phantom power or a wireless rig (the better solution, I think), with the receiver on the floor near the pedals. If you're running straight to the PA house mixer and don't use pedals, this isn't an issue.

So to wrap up -- if your stage volume is under control, and you're not playing in a loud bar or with a loud electric band with drums, then a clip-on mic is a great solution for mandolin. Or any acoustic instrument. I know there are other clip-on mic users here, so I'm sure you'll get more advice. Good luck!

[BrianWilliam]

The mic will sound better but will be more prone to feedback. I bet folded path said that but I can't find my glasses

[almeriastrings]

Pretty much what Foldedpath said. I have DPA4099's, an ATM350 and a couple of PRO 35's. All of these are very good mics. They all work very well and sound great. Best 'value' of the bunch is the PRO 35. The mounting systems are probably the biggest difference... the DPA system is ideal in some cases, in others, the AT Unimount has the edge. If your mando has a fingerguard, personally, I like the ATM350 or PRO 35 mounted like this. Very solid. Quick to fit and remove:




Comparison - DPA 4099"

[Billy Packard]

I'll chime in...

I had a 4099 for a while and it sounded fine...except for the wind. I couldn't prevent the wind from screwing the sound, foam guard and all. Plus, for me the inconvenience of dealing with the mic and placement of the clip and bumping into it, etc, was too distracting. When I play I want to play, not dance with a clip-on mic. Just me...

When I'm at home I hear the instrument as it sounds naturally but when I play out I deal with the sound that's produced, whether it's me producing it or someone else. What is most important is the free flow of music from the artist. As long as the "produced" sound doesn't distract from that I can get along.

In other words, unencumbered musical expression first, equipment diddling second!!



Billy

billypackardmandolin.com

[colorado_al]

You will need a +48v Phantom power source for any of these mics.
I really like the Presonus TubePre, but there are many others that you can use.

[almeriastrings]

You will need a +48v Phantom power source for any of these mics.
I really like the Presonus TubePre, but there are many others that you can use.

If you are running them into a standard PA console that will provide +48v.

Many acoustic amps will too.

[Toni Schula]

I have successfully used the DPA on my mandolin when playing in a rock band with drums, electric guitars, bass and keyboard. It was with an excellent sound guy and supportive fellow musicians though, we kept stage volume low.

In annother situation I had problems when playing with an acoustic country/folk band and a sound guy with no idea of acoustic instruments.

Now I have a pickup in my mandolin too, but I only have used it once. I all other cases the dpa performed quite well.

If you do not depend on the mandolin being loud in the monitor ("Can I have more talent in my monitor, please?") , the dpa works well in a wide range of situations.

[MontanaMatt]

I've used all of the above mentioned clip on mics, and my preference is for a combo of pickup and pencil condenser on a stand. I use the Baggs Radius, and a Shure KSM109. The Radius provides adequate tone for rhythm work, and step in for the solo boost of volume and tone. This setup allows for mobility and the visual effect of soloists stepping in for their breaks. We (mando, guitar and banjo in my band) all share the same central mic and onboard pickup combo(guitar has a Schatten with Fishmann Aura, not sure which p.u. the banjo has, but it's mellow and tasty!.)
It gives the single mic optics, with the modern band volume and control. We play with this arrangement in small and large venues, normal to loud(we switch to three stands of 58/57 high/low in stormy weather or rock volumes in clubs).
I'll add that we've had many configurations and lots of gear over the past 13 years and 1400+ performances, and our current sound is significantly superior to prior iterations.
Happy pickin!

[Charlieshafer]

Another chiming in for what Folded and others have said. The DPA is great, but don't shy away from a mic due to the price of the DPA. The others all mentioned work great, and we've had a lot of Bartlett's come through. The Bartlett is nice and bright, so easy to rein in. It's also cheap, but won't sound quite as nice as the DPA. That said, once it goes through a PA, it's not worth worrying about. Yeah, the DPA is the Ferrari, but all those others are perfectly good when the speed limit is in place, and that limit is the house sound, the crowd, etc.

Billy mentioned the wind noise, and that can be a problem with virtually any mic outside when the wind is blowing. If there's wind indoors, perhaps the roof needs checking. Playing outdoors does usually mean a pickup, and most of the musicians we work with have a completely different setup for outdoors work.

[Toni Schula]

...the DPA is the Ferrari...

So I have a Ferrari in my gig bag and drive a car which fits much better to my gig bag than a Ferrari does. LOL

[almeriastrings]

I'd place the ATM350 as equal to a DPA4099. It has a very nice, accurate sound and very good off-axis rejection. The AT PRO 35 is very close too... not far behind at all, considering the (much) lower cost.

I like the AT's a lot.

[foldedpath]

Billy mentioned the wind noise, and that can be a problem with virtually any mic outside when the wind is blowing. If there's wind indoors, perhaps the roof needs checking. Playing outdoors does usually mean a pickup, and most of the musicians we work with have a completely different setup for outdoors work.

Good point (and Billy's) about wind noise. I haven't had much trouble with it, but then I'm mostly playing outdoors at weddings, which are scheduled in the Summer months when there is almost no wind here in the PNW. Even a beach ceremony is usually pretty calm this time of year. So we've lucked out most of the time.

I do remember one gig at a local State Park a few years ago, where an unusual amount of wind was blowing. I didn't have a problem with the 4099 on my mandolin, but the one on my partner's guitar was picking up an occasional indirect rumble from the sound hole of the guitar. We were able to deal with it by a slight re positioning of our setup, and I think I also bumped up the high pass EQ on his guitar to help kill the rumble.

If we played more festival-type gigs outdoors at different times of the year, or lived in a different part of the country with more unpredictable winds, I'd probably have a backup of some kind, like a pickup that could be temporarily used and then removed.

[almeriastrings]

http://mymic.rycote.com/products/lav...ni-windjammer/

Works very well. Very significant reduction in wind noise with no audible effect on other frequencies.

[Denman John]

Thanks to everyone for their replies. As always, great information shared here on the cafe. We really liked the sound of the mic on the fiddle that we heard in a full band situation played outside. My son plays contra dances with a lot of fiddlers and wants to be heard without always having to stand right in front of a mic. He also plays fiddle and this mic looks like it can be switched between instruments fairly easily. Kind of pricy, but the sound reproduction of the mandolin is important to him. As mentioned in the earlier post, we had a K&K in a different mandolin and it was just OK.

Most of the time he's playing into a mic that goes straight into the board with no effects in between. He's saving up for an acoustic amp as well and the 2 that he's considering (Fishman Loudbox or AER), depending on how much he can save up, both have XLR inputs and supply phantom power, so I think it shouldn't be a problem with this mic. Any advice?

Thanks again for your input.

[almeriastrings]

The 4099 requires 48v phantom via the XLR adapters. Some acoustic amps supply less (e.g., 15 or 24v) and although the mic will work there will be reduced headroom on these lower voltages. So, check the phantom voltage available. The AT PRO 35 and ATM350 are perfectly happy with anything from 11-52V.

[Charlieshafer]

http://mymic.rycote.com/products/lav...ni-windjammer/

Works very well. Very significant reduction in wind noise with no audible effect on other frequencies.

Oh come on, that's just a dead mouse.
And true story. I was setting up for an outdoor fundraising concert for the local land trust, right on the river, right up the sound less than a quarter mile, so lots of wind. I took the wind socks out of the microphone case, set them down for less than a second, and the blew away, into the river. So much for wind noise abatement.

[foldedpath]

The 4099 requires 48v phantom via the XLR adapters. Some acoustic amps supply less (e.g., 15 or 24v) and although the mic will work there will be reduced headroom on these lower voltages. So, check the phantom voltage available. The AT PRO 35 and ATM350 are perfectly happy with anything from 11-52V.

How noticeable is that loss of headroom though? At one point I was using a little AER Alpha acoustic amp with my 4099. Mostly for coffee shop gigs, where I snuck it under my chair for a little boost to be heard along with a non-amplified fiddle. The spec for the mic input on that amp was 24v phantom, and the 4099 worked fine.

I think what's happening in that XLR adapter (someone correct me if I'm wrong), is that the adapter is taking whatever the incoming voltage is, 24v, 48v, or whatever, and stepping it down to the "bias voltage" the mic uses when connected to a wireless body pack transmitter. If it needed full 48v phantom, the mic couldn't run on wireless rigs that use the much lower bias voltage. There may be some inefficiency in feeding the XLR adapter less than 48v, but then again, I couldn't hear a problem with 24v.

Note: this was with the original DPA 4099, not the newer one with the detachable cable. Don't know if that makes any difference.

[Mandoplumb]

I'll chime in...
When I'm at home I hear the instrument as it sounds naturally but when I play out I deal with the sound that's produced, whether it's me producing it or someone else. What is most important is the free flow of music from the artist. As long as the "produced" sound doesn't distract from that I can get along.
In other words, unencumbered musical expression first, equipment diddling second!!
Billy
billypackardmandolin.com

My problem is it does distract from the music, never heard a pick up that sounded like acoustic thru a mic, mandolin guitar or
anything. All I can do is think wouldn't that sound good as an acoustic.

[almeriastrings]

How noticeable is that loss of headroom though? At one point I was using a little AER Alpha acoustic amp with my 4099. Mostly for coffee shop gigs, where I snuck it under my chair for a little boost to be heard along with a non-amplified fiddle. The spec for the mic input on that amp was 24v phantom, and the 4099 worked fine.

The DPA 4099 mic capsules require a bias voltage of 5V. That's supplied direct from wireless packs, of course. It is interesting that while AKG and AT both say 11-52v is OK via the phantom adapter, DPA are very insistent that the phantom voltage should be 48V with a tolerance of +/-4v. I have not seen any figures for how much headroom would be lost. It may well not be audible with mandolin, though I imagine for percussion, it might be. I have also run them on 24v and they sounded OK to me, but worth knowing regardless.

[Mark Seale]

I love the DPA4099. I have two, one for fiddle and one for mandolin. I know they state they require 48v Phantom Power, and while I typically play through my Acoustic Image Corus, I sometimes play through my wife's AER 60 which is 24v. I don't believe there is a finer clip on mic available and while it may look delicate, I'm still playing the my first one purchased nearly 7 years ago after seeing one at DjangofestNW the previous year. I've played hundreds of gigs and rehearsals and nary an issue.

[Toni Schula]

The DPA 4099 mic capsules require a bias voltage of 5V. That's supplied direct from wireless packs, of course. It is interesting that while AKG and AT both say 11-52v is OK via the phantom adapter, DPA are very insistent that the phantom voltage should be 48V with a tolerance of +/-4v. I have not seen any figures for how much headroom would be lost. It may well not be audible with mandolin, though I imagine for percussion, it might be. I have also run them on 24v and they sounded OK to me, but worth knowing regardless.

I believe that dpa simply echoes the specs for P48 from DIN 61938, while AKG and AT tell us what their engineers have implemented.