The Search Continues... Part 2

[Mandobar]

Nic, that is a torrified adirondack spruce top, with a lacquer finish. Totally different sound from the italian topped (varnish or lacquer).

[Nick Gellie]

Thanks for that. So based on Demetrius's quest for the holy grail in mandolins which one would best suit his style?

[Mandobar]

Only he can answer that. If I read it right, he's trying to match the mandolin's voice with his singing voice so that they compliment each other. Only he can determine that.

[Nick Gellie]

Demetrius-

I can speculate on the reason for that. In describing the Master Model program, Charlie Derrington often said he was very picky about only using, "select species of Eastern Maple" for the back and sides.
Whereas Gilchrist, Nugget, Kimble, and others, primarily use Sugar Maple to achieve Loarish results. I firmly believe that most Master Models are made with Eastern Red Maple. This warms them up a bit.
Randy Wood uses Red Maple with Red Spruce. So does Dundenbostel (or at least he did earlier Loar-inspired work). Also Hans Brentrup paired Red Spruce with Red Maple.
This pairing may be more in your wheelhouse.

Yip, it is not only the top that makes the sound. I think Mike Black uses Red Maple on his oval As to warm up the sound. You get more focussed mid range with the Sugar Maple. That is why I am suggesting Demetrius works with a builder to specify exactly what he wants instead of searching for used instruments. Myself I would work with Tom Ellis. It gives one plenty of time to sell the Gilchrist whilst waiting for the new mando to be produced.

In the meantime buy a European Spruce topped mandolin as a backup mandolin with slightly different back wood to the one being made. One can work on technique till the cows come then.

[Larry S Sherman]

Also Hans Brentrup paired Red Spruce with Red Maple.
This pairing may be more in your wheelhouse.

It certainly is in my wheelhouse...and my real house.

Larry

[GProulx]

It certainly is in my wheelhouse...and my real house.

Larry

Larry, Do you own a Brentrup? Would love to see a photo!

[Demetrius]

I'm not sure you are going to get the sweet trebles and loose upper end on that one. That's going to be more bluegrass, and tighter sounding (read crisp) sort of like your Gil.

I honestly don't hear the crisp thing in the Gil, If anything its on the darker side Id say. Not quite as Dark as my Dude was, but definitely darker than my Derrington DMM. Ive actually owned an MT2, a really nice one too. I should've played that one and called it a day...

[Demetrius]

Yeh Larry, Im gonna break into your real house and take back my old wheelhouse

It certainly is in my wheelhouse...and my real house.

Larry

[Mark Seale]

While you're at TME saving money by going with the Collings MT2V Italian, you'll probably need to pair it with the Lawrence Smart mandola. Just being helpful.

http://themusicemporium.com/mandolin...m-mandola-2014

[Nick Gellie]

Interesting that Demetrius has not taken up the idea of a Collings or an Ellis in his posts.

My strong opinion is that these A models are on a par with Brentrups, Dudenbostels, or Gilchrists. If a Collings MT can be made to sound as good as higher end mandolins, then a Collings MT-V or an Ellis A-5 with more bling can do the same if not better. As I said before, commission one of these high end mandolins to the right specifications, having also played a few in the flesh is also a good option.

Here is a draft specification sheet, which people may like to change at their behest:



Specs
Select Italian spruce top, maybe Red or Engelmann Spruce
Premium Eastern Red Maple back, sides and neck
Parallel tone bar bracing
F-soundholes
Triple bound ivoroid top/back/neck & peghead binding
Satin to gloss varnish finish
Bound headstock
13 Degree headstock angle
Ebony peghead overlay with appropriate MOP inlay
Ebony fingerboard
Mortise and tenon neck joint
22-frets, neck joins the body at the 15th fret
V shaped neck profile with 1 9/16" string spacing
Compound radius fingerboard
1 1/8" Bone nut
13 7/8" Scale length
Medium 18% nickel-silver or Eco gold fretwire
Mother of pearl dot fingerboard inlays
Fully adjustable truss rod
Custom adjustable floating ebony bridge
one-piece nickel or gold James tailpiece
Nickel or gold tuners with black or pearl buttons
Recommended string gauge - D'Addario J-74 (.011"-.040")

[Ivan Kelsall]

''Wheelhouse'' - absolutely one of Bill Monroe's best instrumentals !!.

Even working with one of the best luthiers to build a 'custom' build,one could never be 100% sure of the tonal outcome. The tones might be 'in the ballpark',but not quite there - & how would it develop with age ?. A mandolin might become 'darker' or develop a strong 'clarity of tone' like i hear in some Gils.

Having read the comments in the thread re.visiting Tom Ellis,about Tom's new personal F5,i'd be taking a trip to listen to it.

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...the-Ellis-Shop Post 24

However, we don't know whereabouts in the US Demetrius resides. In cases like this,it's always best (if possible), to have an example of a mandolin with the tone you want - or at least partially ie '' like this one but with more bass or mid or treble '',but just how accurately can a builder build to get a specific tone ?,
Ivan

[Nick Gellie]

I reckon with the right woods arching and graduations he can get pretty close. Interesting that Demetrius admitted he had a nice MT2 and also admitting that he could have called it a day. He can always go back to it with the great wood combinations that Collings now offers that weren't there a few years ago.

I have called it quits with my Collings MT. another cafe member said to me you can't get much better than a Collings MT. Well, you can but how much are you willing to pay? That is why I am suggesting a Collings MT2-V, mainly due to aesthetics and the varnish to give a smoother tone.

[William Smith]

My twin MT2-V's in birds eye blonde were real good mandolins, they were just new and I like old beat up and well played in mandolins-that's my passion, I don't like pristine. Dem may like something like those but with a different top? I'm not familiar with most of the different top woods and what tonal characteristics they have? Mystery cause I live where I can't play em! Major bummer! Kinda bummed The Music Emporium sold that Distressed MModel, that baby was sweet and very similar in tone to that 29 Fern they still have. That one is a wee bit too high priced in todays market! Old Gibson 5's have went down. I'm still lusting after Mr. Vessel's recent achievement-GNARLY man simply wicked! When I have the extra lettuce I know what my next horn will b for sure.

[Mandobar]

Ivan, if you look at Demetrius' ad for his Gil, he lives on Cape Cod, in Massachusetts. Boston is about an hour and a half to 2 hours, depending on the time of year and the traffic. There's only one road in and out of Cape Cod, although there used to be a ferry that went to Boston from the Northern side of the Cape during the summer

[Charlieshafer]

Ivan, if you look at Demetrius' ad for his Gil, he lives on Cape Cod, in Massachusetts.

Which, as we New Englanders know, means he's playing for beach tourists in the summer and washed-up fishermen in the winter. There's only one choice, from Bill at Old Wave.

[mtucker]

I honestly don't hear the crisp thing in the Gil, If anything its on the darker side Id say.

I would most definitely agree. There's a ton of clear mid and upper-range with depth in the mids in mine, but it's also got a killer low end that's on the deep dark side. The G string has the best fundamental I've ever played.

[Mark Seale]

TME has a pretty nice selection of different voiced instruments. This one would be on my list.

http://themusicemporium.com/mandolin...-smart-f5-2003

[barry]

Hi Demetrius-

Over the weekend, I have watched the videos of your instruments, and of your music. I have a few thoughts for you. You may consider it advice if you want, but they are my observations.
There appear to be two factors at play here.
1. You are a gigging musician looking for an ideal instrument to suit your playing style. This makes perfect sense.
2. You, just like many of us on here, enjoy the gear aspect of the art, as well as the art itself. Call it MAS if you want, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with this either. There are many gear-centric careers, hobbies and activities being fed by applicable forums just like this.
3. You are trying to rationalize point #2, by using point #1. They should be separate considerations.

That being said, and knowing that you are a somewhat obsessive guy (Once again, there is nothing wrong with that. It takes one to know one.), here is what I would do if I were in your position:
At least for right now, I would consider the Givens my gigging mandolin. It has the tonal quality you want. And I'm going to bet it blends well with your voice. I understand the neck profile issue. But my understanding is that you mainly gig on guitar, so you can deal with a slightly less than ideal profile for the limited mando performance time.

As for observation #2, hold on to the Gil for right now. It's may not be ideal for your style, but it's a desirable instrument. Keep playing stuff that comes your way, and use the Gil as trade fodder down the road. Something cool always finds its' way into the hands of those who seek. There is no reason to force things along. Obsessing over Collings A's isn't going to scratch that itch for long.

My 2 cents.

Barry

[Nick Gellie]

Problem is Barry the neck profile of the Givens does not suit Demetrius. He could sell the Givens and buy the Collings as his gigging instrument.

http://themusicemporium.com/mandolin...ple-w-waverlys

And then sell the Gilchrist at his leisure and perhaps buy an Ellis F5 to replace it as his home playing mandolin

http://themusicemporium.com/mandolins/ellis-f5-deluxe

That way he has money left over for his family to go on a holiday somewhere.

[Mandobar]

I don't see this ending with a Collings and an Ellis. His tastes are in a different realm.

[barry]

I don't see this ending with a Collings and an Ellis. His tastes are in a different realm.

Agreed.

[Charlieshafer]

I don't see this ending with a Collings and an Ellis. His tastes are in a different realm.

Yeah. In fact, in watching this, I think the biggest problem is that he's putting way too much emphasis on the name of the maker. If he's really interested in sound, he'd try a bunch blindfolded. I think he'd be surprised, like many others, in what he actually likes vs. what he thinks he's supposed to like.

[Josh Levine]

Enough with the Collings already. If he wants a Collings he can go to the Music Emporium and grab one. I don't see moving from the Gil to the Collings as the end game.

I played that LSmart F5 at Music Emporium a few weeks ago. It is a great mandolin. Would be worth driving over to play. It was my favorite of the ones I played, other than the 15' VFern. That thing is a beast, but guessing it is too fundamental of a tone for Dem to want. That Smart it a very interesting mandolin.

[Mandobar]

Yeah. In fact, in watching this, I think the biggest problem is that he's putting way too much emphasis on the name of the maker. If he's really interested in sound, he'd try a bunch blindfolded. I think he'd be surprised, like many others, in what he actually likes vs. what he thinks he's supposed to like.

They did this with a bunch of Strads, and some violins from contemporary makers. 2/3's of the people liked the contemporary makers' instruments better. I laughed when I read that.

People get all caught up in the name thing, and they also get all defensive about their instruments, especially if they've invested a significant amount of money. I say, if the name is important, then hey, it's all part of the choice. I'm not going to fault him for that. We can all toss in our 2 cents, but it's truly the OP's choice, and he has to be comfortable with it.

I tell everyone this, and I may have said it before in this thread or maybe another, instruments are easier to buy than to sell. Not as difficult as real estate, but it can be a very frustrating process.

[Nick Gellie]

Good advice Mandobar,

Sometimes it is best to walk away from a prospective purchase rather than go through with it and later regret it. Interesting to see what Demetrius finally comes up though. I don't think it will be the end of his quest though.

I always thought if you were a singer you would be better off with a mandola or octave mandolin rather than a mandolin.