To Pinkie or Not Pinkie is my Question

[T.D.Nydn]

Watch these two guys (closely) and then tell me again how playing the mandolin is all about your pinky.

Is this like your example on why NOT to use your pinky?

[OldSausage]

No one at all is saying "don't use your pinky". I'm just saying some very fine players rarely use their pinky for fretting when playing melody, especially in Bluegrass and related genres.

If anyone cares, I personally use my pinky in almost every tune I play.

For those of you without a pair of eyeballs, in the video neither of these fine players (Adam Steffey and Danny Roberts) uses their pinky for anything other than chording, or damping the strings. That is the point.

[pops1]

With the size of Adam's hands I can understand not using it when most would, my hands, nor my physical size are anything near the size of Mr. Steffey.

[dlp]

fwiw, i came to mandolin after playing classical viola very seriously for most of my life. i think that thinking critically about fingerings (as opposed to the path of least resistance) would benefit most mandolin players. and learning/practicing how to shift positions properly.

[Stevo75]

Adam Steffey also plants his pinky firmly on the top of the mandolin (his right pinky, I know that's not the one we're talking about). But that doesn't mean it's proper technique nor the best way to teach a beginner. It obviously works for him, though.

[Stevo75]

I think any great, or even good, mandolin player, including Adam Steffey, would tell a student to make sure to learn to use the pinky and would teach them how it should be used (7th fret in first position, etc.). But some of those same players would then choose to use the pinky a lot in their own playing (Chris Thile) and some would not (Adam Steffey). FWIW, I have seen Adam Steffey use his pinky on other tunes.

Like most advice on technique, when the question is, "should I do this one way or the other?", the answer is usually both. I bet most great players could play a passage that is "supposed" to be played with the pinky either way (both with and without) depending on what they're doing, where they're going, or what just happens naturally.

[DavidKOS]

fwiw, i came to mandolin after playing classical viola very seriously for most of my life. i think that thinking critically about fingerings (as opposed to the path of least resistance) would benefit most mandolin players. and learning/practicing how to shift positions properly.

All of what you mention are valid points - but are well covered in almost all the traditional Classical mandolin methods.

Unfortunately many mandolin players do not study the classical methods.

Adam Steffey also plants his pinky firmly on the top of the mandolin (his right pinky, I know that's not the one we're talking about). But that doesn't mean it's proper technique nor the best way to teach a beginner. It obviously works for him, though.

I was not going to mention that either!

What "works" for many players is not always the most efficient technique. Yes it works for them...but I always wonder if they could play and sound a bit better not planting the right hand pinkie and more use of the left hand 4th finger.

Show me some top grade choro, Italian, jazz or classical players that avoid the little finger. You can get away with this in many styles of music but not those.

[DavidKOS]

No one at all is saying "don't use your pinky". I'm just saying some very fine players rarely use their pinky for fretting when playing melody, especially in Bluegrass and related genres.

That may be the point too - in Bluegrass, Old-timey and related styles, you CAN play most of the tunes without classical technique.

That's because the music is played in a limited number of keys, mostly 1st position, major, mixolydian, and both minor modes all the scales you need, etc.

When you play other styles, you start to need the 4th finger.

[foldedpath]

No one at all is saying "don't use your pinky". I'm just saying some very fine players rarely use their pinky for fretting when playing melody, especially in Bluegrass and related genres.

I think the question here, is whether it's helpful to point out examples of famous players who manage to get along with less than efficient technique, when a beginner is asking about technique. We can always find examples where famous players manage with less than ideal technique if we go looking for it, in any genre of music. That doesn't make them role models.

[Jstring]

Show me some top grade choro, Italian, jazz or classical players that avoid the little finger. You can get away with this in many styles of music but not those.

You had to know we'd go Django in response, didn't ya?

[foldedpath]

That may be the point too - in Bluegrass, Old-timey and related styles, you CAN play most of the tunes without classical technique.

That's because the music is played in a limited number of keys, mostly 1st position, major, mixolydian, and both minor modes all the scales you need, etc.

When you play other styles, you start to need the 4th finger.

Well, you need it in many of those OldTime, Bluegrass, and Irish trad fiddle tunes too, if only for that high B note on the E string in first position.

Try playing the second part of the Tarbolton Reel without using your pinky for the B note. If you can do that at 105 bpm (counting 2/2), then you're doing some world-class hand shifting, when it's so easy just to flick your pinky out for the note.

[DavidKOS]

If anyone cares, I personally use my pinky in almost every tune I play.

I like that you would use the 3rd finger where one may use the 4th - but it was for a musical reason, those sweet little slides into certain notes.

I looked at a lot of your videos - you may use the 4th finger, but you definitely favor the 3rd finger, but like I said, it may be more for phrasing.

[DavidKOS]

Notice the use of the 4th finger!

[Ky Slim]

This is from the cafe's 2010 interview with Adam.

Question from j-hill:

...I have heard you joke that you never use your pinky when playing. Was there a period when you worked to involve your pinky more and finally had to get comfortable with the reality that you were going to be a 3-fingered player? Do you find that players tend to get frustrated by what they can't (or don't) do instead of enjoying their natural style?

Adam Steffey:
I do use my pinky, but very rarely. This was never a conscious decision on my part. I would sit down with records and try to rip off whoever I might be listening to at the time and never gave any thought to my technique or fingering. If I could figure out a lick or a solo, my main concern was just to play it as close to what I was hearing as possible. There are times when I DO use my pinky, but the vast majority of the time I will stretch with my ring finger.

So many folks get bogged down with the process that they forget to enjoy the results. I have talked to a lot of folks during workshops and seminars that get tied down to trying to use a certain technique or method. Although they may be very proficient players, they want to change something because that's the way they envision it is "supposed" to be done. I will never be able to do what a lot of other players do, but I'm totally fine with that. Clint Eastwood in one of the Dirty Harry movies said, "a man needs to know his limitations." Hopefully, I know mine and try not to let this bog me down. I play the mandolin because I love and enjoy it. If someone enjoys the technical side of playing, I think that's awesome. But NEVER feel like YOU'RE somehow missing out on something because of a difference in technique or style.

[OldSausage]

I like that you would use the 3rd finger where one may use the 4th - but it was for a musical reason, those sweet little slides into certain notes.

I looked at a lot of your videos - you may use the 4th finger, but you definitely favor the 3rd finger, but like I said, it may be more for phrasing.

Geez, I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition. My pinky has not always been in as good shape as it is these days. But I do often favor my 3rd finger where I can get a better sound by using it. Thanks for looking at the vids.

[T.D.Nydn]

Notice the use of the 4th finger!

A perfect example..."a mind of it''s own.."...

[Bill McCall]

I believe Jethro was quoted wishing he had a 5th finger to use, so I don’t know why you wouldn’t use 4. Another tool in the box, but the longer it’s ignored, the more remedial work you may need later. I don’t know how you can efficiently play closed position scales, arpeggios or chromatic runs without it.

Of course, ymmv.

[catmandu2]

Should I change my style to three fingers instead of four?

Hell no!

If you should ever wish to execute techniques such as drones, extended reaches, or take up fiddle or other longer-scale instrument, you'll surely regret losing your fourth-finger capacity.

[sbhikes]

"The Silver Spear," which has a phrase at the start of the second section that in most settings goes F-A-F-B-F-A-F, with the pinky whipping out to hit that high B note.

I think what happens with people who have limitations, such as the inability to use their pinky or some other problem, is that they simply leave out some of those notes. It's probably not necessary to play all those Fs. I know that is what I used to do all the freaking time when I tried to play Irish flute. There were just some things I simply couldn't do so, usually things that fiddlers could easily do when rocking the bow. I'd leave out stuff like that.

[fatt-dad]

to pinky or not to pinky?

Heck, I'm not even consistent in the same tune! I've been playing (mediocre) for many years. It has been in recent time I've really started to need my pinky. So, I drill on it.

I've always used the four-finger chop chord though. For that, it's easy. For rapid passages, then my pinky has never been that dependable and I get much clearer tone by cheating, when possible. For example in the Pig Ankle Rag, I can cheat. For "Swinging on a Gate," I can't. These are tunes I've played both ways for years! Now, I've just gotten used to the way I do it. If I taught? Not sure what to teach, other than adaptation and learning to "sing" is what's important.

f-d

[Kevin Stueve]

Geez, I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition. My pinky has not always been in as good shape as it is these days. But I do often favor my 3rd finger where I can get a better sound by using it. Thanks for looking at the vids.

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition

[DavidKOS]

You had to know we'd go Django in response, didn't ya?

Actually he did use the 3rd and 4th fingers for octaves and those 6/9 chords.

This is from the cafe's 2010 interview with Adam.

"Adam Steffey:
I do use my pinky, but very rarely. This was never a conscious decision on my part. I would sit down with records and try to rip off whoever I might be listening to at the time and never gave any thought to my technique or fingering. If I could figure out a lick or a solo, my main concern was just to play it as close to what I was hearing as possible."

It's all music dependant. He could get the musical sounds he needed with 3 fingers most of the time.

I believe Jethro was quoted wishing he had a 5th finger to use, so I don’t know why you wouldn’t use 4. Another tool in the box, but the longer it’s ignored, the more remedial work you may need later. I don’t know how you can efficiently play closed position scales, arpeggios or chromatic runs without it.

Of course, ymmv.

Some styles of music don't really use a load of "closed position scales, arpeggios or chromatic runs". Many of the styles I like and play do use them, so I need all 4 fingers.

I know this video has been posted but I really like Dave Apollon's fingering...and picking hand. I think is is top-grade technique.

[sblock]

Geez, I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition. My pinky has not always been in as good shape as it is these days. But I do often favor my 3rd finger where I can get a better sound by using it. Thanks for looking at the vids.

But OldSausage, NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!

[Steve L]

Who would have dreamed the little finger would prove to be as divisive as the capo?

[Bertram Henze]

...as divisive as the capo?

Well, Mr Steffey's pinky looked like one to me...