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Thread: LH Technique / Finger-span / Thumb Position

  1. #1
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default LH Technique / Finger-span / Thumb Position

    In a recent thread, sblock mentioned a measurement of his finger span, and it sparked my curiosity. I found a ruler and measured mine out of curiosity.

    I had a bad habit of sort of grasping the mandolin neck like a baseball bat when I started (not actually that tightly, but a similar thumb position) and recently began consciously working on a whole different thumb position approach per Brad Laird instructions, which has been helping me a great deal. Since left hand technique is so important to being able to fret clean notes, I have a high degree of interest in this subject.

    I'm wondering what others do, and now also I'm curious as to others' finger span measurement in combination with what they do for left hand technique and particularly thumb position. Anybody willing to play along? I'd like to know your answer to these questions:

    1. "If I turn my left hand palm-side up and stretch out the thumb to the left and the pinkie to the right, the distance between my two fully extended fingertips is ..."

    2. In first position, I most often use this finger to note the 6th fret: (a) 3rd finger, or (b) pinky

    3. I usually have my thumb: (a) toward the headstock, (b) above the neck, over my fingers, (c) other

    For myself,
    1. I measure about 9-3/8"
    2. I use the third finger after much practice to re-train myself
    3. I am currently training my thumb to point toward the headstock as often as possible

    Here is a snippet from an otherwise unlisted video I made recently for the newbies group that illustrates my practice o thumb position:

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    Registered User T.D.Nydn's Avatar
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    Default Re: LH Technique / Finger-span / Thumb Position

    This should be interesting..I'm 6 ft tall but slender with small hands,my left hand straight out measures just over 9 inches,,a full 1/2 inch longer than my right..my hand shifts on the neck constantly,sometimes real tight with thumb up in very low first position,all the way to stretching with thumb way back aND fingers slanted forward,,really fast shifts in hand position when playing chord runs and such...

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    formerly Philphool Phil Goodson's Avatar
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    Default Re: LH Technique / Finger-span / Thumb Position

    1. 9 1/8 in
    2. a
    3. a
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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: LH Technique / Finger-span / Thumb Position

    I can't believe I am comparing sizes here

    8 2/3
    a
    a

    I just re-use what I was taught in 9 years of tedious violin lessons - I mean, they had to be good for something.
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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: LH Technique / Finger-span / Thumb Position

    1. My comfortable span is 9 1/2". I can briefly stretch to 9 3/4" but it isn't fun, and I don't think I strain my hand that hard when I'm playing mandolin or guitar.

    2. Third finger on the 6th fret in first position.

    3. (a) Thumb toward headstock on the side of the fingerboard, basically quasi-violin hold as in the Mike Marshall "quick tips" video from D'Addario.

  10. #6
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: LH Technique / Finger-span / Thumb Position

    Mark, I am a bit confused by your video. Are you saying that you recommend that thumb position? Or am I missing something here?

    I agree with foldedpath that MM's left hand tips make a lot of sense to me.

    -----------------

    Ah, I see: Bradleylaird's Play the Mandolin. Interesting. Hey, if that works for you, that is fine. I guess it works for Mr. Laird.

    Actually, TOB and Chris Thile show both styles of LH playing so I guess it works for one of two of my favorite players. Then again, TOB doesn't position his thumb in that position completely behind the headstock as in the OP's video. Carry on!

    Last edited by Jim Garber; Oct-27-2017 at 1:59pm.
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    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: LH Technique / Finger-span / Thumb Position

    1. 8 1/8 (my brother can wrap his first joint over the tips of my fingers)
    2. 3rd finger
    3. Thumb flat, 45 degree angle pointed toward headstock, varies some with chord and fret position.

    I find practicing scales starting on the middle finger is the best left hand drill for dexterity, very slowly of course. Really difficult for the Bb scale keeping the fingers down and not trying to crush the neck
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    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
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    Default Re: LH Technique / Finger-span / Thumb Position

    1. 8"
    2. pinky
    3. See pic below.
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: LH Technique / Finger-span / Thumb Position

    To answer the survey:

    1. 9"
    2. a
    3. In first position, thumb behind the neck between 1st and 2nd frets, but I am also a fiddler, of that makes any difference. I could possibly switch to playing that way but I am not sure why I would want to do that. It seems awkward to me but maybe because I have been playing that way for over 40 years.


    Frankly, the stretching only goes so far especially for us ith average or small fingers. That is why the gods of the mandolin created extra frets above #7 and upper positions.
    Last edited by Jim Garber; Oct-27-2017 at 4:04pm.
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    Default Re: LH Technique / Finger-span / Thumb Position

    Just remember folks size doesn't matter, it's all in how you use it.

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  18. #11
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: LH Technique / Finger-span / Thumb Position

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    To answer the survey:

    1. 9"
    2. a
    3. In first position, thumb behind the neck between 1st and 2nd frets, but I am also a fiddler, of that makes any difference. I could possibly switch to playing that way but I am not sure why I would want to do that. It seems awkward to me but maybe because I have been playing that way for over 40 years.


    Frankly, the stretching only goes so far especially for us ith average or small fingers. That is why the gods of the mandolin created extra frets above #7 and upper positions.
    Hey Jim, my LH technique is all over the place because of too many years (50+) picking up too many styles on guitar. I've heard Brad in a video or two mention the use of thumb pointed toward the headstock (like Tobin and others have mentioned above, and like Tim in your video) but even letting it go all the way back at times (like I showed in that video). Then, in reading some material from Laird, I found his explanation interesting; I'm referring to a book titled Mandolin Training Camp, pp. 35-36, "The Forgotten Left Thumb" and "Understanding The Thumb." Although he doesn't claim expertise on the science, his explanation of the physics and physiology as applied to technique makes sense to me.

    I had been finding that my own LH technique was leading to some premature "check mates" on the mandolin; in the middle of some tunes I'd work my way into positions where it felt like "game over" and required some effort to get to the next note. So I tried Brad's advice and found it sound.

    The problem came in putting it to practice. I felt the same as you've mentioned: "It seems awkward to me but maybe because I have been playing that way for over 40 years"

    I've been practicing a better LH position for over a month now, and I see the benefits. In my video above I show some extreme examples*; in practice, my LH technique is still all over the place depending on what I'm doing, but I've been training myself to stretch the thumb back and open up for certain passages where formerly I was sort of closing up with my thumb coming forward in the opposite direction. In my opinion, it's a much better technique.

    *For instance, in the OP video I actually have my thumb near the bottom of the neck so that you can see it on the video sliding. In practice, I'd never play with my thumb that low. For certain chords, this thumb position I'm talking about doesn't apply. And, I use the unfortunate term, "anchor" in that video when what I'm really talking about is "index" - your thumb would not really be anchored anywhere, but it stays in a fairly small area while the hand stretches out, so it indexes your position on the fretboard with minimal movement.
    Last edited by Mark Gunter; Oct-27-2017 at 4:38pm.
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  19. #12

    Default Re: LH Technique / Finger-span / Thumb Position

    I'm 6'3" tall with decently large hands.

    1. 9.5"
    2. 3rd finger
    3. (a) toward the headstock

    I'm not sure there is much value in the span measurement. The distance between your thumb and pinky isn't as meaningful as the distance from your index finger to your pinky unless we all start playing piano.

    If I move positions more than a couple of frets, my thumb comes along. I'm not sure what's "right" here, but it's been my experience that I lose leverage if my thumb stays extended and I'm more likely to flub a note with my pinky. I try to keep my thumb about there it naturally falls with some exceptions for chording.

    I have a similar hand position and neck angle as this guy:


    (skip to 7:25 for left-hand placement in detail)

    The one thing I continually work on is keeping a gap between the notch between my thumb and index finger and the neck. I try to maintain this even with tricky chords.

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  21. #13
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: LH Technique / Finger-span / Thumb Position

    Thumb riding up on the top half of the neck, pointed more up, or forward, than anything else, though angled perhaps towards the neck, and always behind where ever my first finger is. Always a "mouse hole" between the back of the neck and my hand (neck never rests in the crotch of my thumb and forefinger). Left hand never carries any weight of the mandolin.

    Sixth fret, third finger, when playing in first position and when there are no instructions to the contrary or reason to change.

    If I plant my thumb on the ruler and stretch out my pinky I get eight and a half or maybe two thirds inches. If I plant my pinky and stretch my thumb I get 9 inches.
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    Default Re: LH Technique / Finger-span / Thumb Position

    Ya'll got me curious to measure. What surprised me was the + 3/4" difference my fretting hand, thumb to pinky span, has over my picking hand.

    Plain to see by looking. My picky and thumb are at 9:00 and 3:00 when my left hand is extended. Right hand thumb and pinkie both point up some with hand fully extended.

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    Registered User Louise NM's Avatar
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    Default Re: LH Technique / Finger-span / Thumb Position

    OK, Mark, in the name of science, here you are:

    1) 8 3/4"

    2) No rules, depends heavily on the key signature. On the D strings, for example, I'll usually play a G# with the third finger, an Ab with the fourth. (Lots of years of classical training on violin/viola contribute to this.) Also, in a scalar passage, there's often an F#(second finger, 4th fret) before a G#, where an Ab follows a G, commonly played with the third finger on the fifth fret. Just how it makes sense to me. "Often" and "usually" are the key words, though.

    3) Other. Opposite my first finger, not extending much above the finger board. Again, a carry-over from all those violin teachers. Keeping it there seems to give the most flexibility. Pulling the thumb under the neck a bit brings the hand around to reach the G course, the opposite makes it easier to reach the E strings.

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  27. #16
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: LH Technique / Finger-span / Thumb Position

    From the tip of my left thumb to the tip of my little finger = 9". Playing wise,i have my thumb in a similar position to what's shown in Tobins's post #8. I can easily stretch from the 5th to 12th fret in playing, & very often use that to play a descending series of notes on the 1st strings when improvising.
    As for 'proper' thumb position,even the top players change it at times. John Reischman in one video clip, cradles the mandolin neck between his first finger & thumb,what i call a 'banjo grip',
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  29. #17
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    Default Re: LH Technique / Finger-span / Thumb Position

    1. I have very limited control over my left thumb; if I extend my left hand, palm up, my thumb will stand at a 45 degree angle to the palm; I can fold it inwards, not outwards.

    For my right hand the distance is something like 8 inches. I can barley reach an octave on the piano, the normal compass is a tenth.

    2. Depends on context, key, degree of cromaticism, etc. As long as I'm staying within the scale I usually finger diatonically, next note, next finger.

    E.g., in the key of Ab, there are four fretted scale notes on each course in first, a scale note at the sixth fret on each course, so here pinky at the sixth fret is the natural choice. In the key of A, a half-step higher, I fret the same as in Ab, only one fret higher. Open strings will play a completely different role, though.

    3. In this case my answer is very simple: where it lands. The default position in first then would be with part of the outer joint extending above the fretboard. As I enter higher positions my thumb will drag behind a bit. In the rare instance of a barre chord the thumb will slide in below the neck. But I certainly do not place it anywhere, I just bring my hand to the mandolin and start playing.

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    Registered User GrooverMcTube's Avatar
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    Default Re: LH Technique / Finger-span / Thumb Position

    1. 9.5"
    2. If my pinky is on the 7th would use 3rd finger for the sixth fret, if 3rd finger is on 5th would use pinky on the sixth fret
    3. Thumb usually points toward headstock, never on the back of the neck

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    MandolaViola bratsche's Avatar
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    Default Re: LH Technique / Finger-span / Thumb Position

    1. 7 7/8" (Yeah, I know - small hands, but dextrous )
    2. a. Third finger mostly, but depends on context.
    3. c. Other - it goes all over the place. Mobility and flexibility are the keywords for my thumb.

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    Default Re: LH Technique / Finger-span / Thumb Position

    Okay, I re-measured 3 times, this thread explains a lot of the issues I have with reaching effectively.
    1) 6 7/8 inches (I have extremely small hands - fingers almost a joint shorter than the average person)
    2) pinkie
    3) Varies depending on what I am trying to do with my fingers

    Now I understand some of my difficulties better. I m trying to get away from TAB because I read music easily - played piano for 52 years, but I need TAB to figure out the most effective way to finger sections, and I often can't do it! I may just need to do it differently.

  35. #21
    Registered User Kevin Stueve's Avatar
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    Default Re: LH Technique / Finger-span / Thumb Position

    1. 8 1/2 roughly
    2. Third finger
    3. See JeffD description, tobin picture. Thumb behind the neck reminds of struggling to do classical guitar exercises. So nope not doing it. :D

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    Default Re: LH Technique / Finger-span / Thumb Position

    I was feeling bad reading 9" and 9 1/2", My spread is 8". Thank you for those with small hands. While not a large hand it does the job. Was talking to a friend a few days ago who wanted to learn guitar and the instructor told her, her hands were too small. I told her to get a new instructor, what an insensitive, ridiculous thing to say. Reading the sizes of those of you who play with small hands I am correct in my statement. Don't take this wrong, " it's not the size that matters, but what you do with them"
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    Default Re: LH Technique / Finger-span / Thumb Position

    Well I just measured my hand span (spread) and I was shocked. Shocked, I tell you. I have always measured stuff in hand spans and called each span 9". It's actually 8 1/4 " - at full stretch. I can't remember when or how I determined it was 9". I wonder how many things would have turned out different in my life had I not been constantly overestimating measurements?
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    String-Bending Heretic mandocrucian's Avatar
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    Default Re: LH Technique / Finger-span / Thumb Position

    avoid the collapsed hand (L), or the overarched hand (M). The pic on the L is good hand position. Letting the neck rest in your palm constricts your reach severely.
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    Default Re: LH Technique / Finger-span / Thumb Position

    1) 8.75"
    2) Ring finger
    3) After a concerted effort, I use the Mike Marshall, modified violin grip. This was super difficult to adapt, as I spent many years playing a 7 string electric guitar and others with wide, flat necks. That lends to classical left hand technique. A few years ago, I switched over to a Strat, with a much rounder neck, so I was doing the Jimi, SRV thumb-over grip. Needless to say, everything about the mandolin has been quite different than what I was used to.
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