My first F-5 build

[Marn99]

Ok, so because I have had so many questions about building an F-5 mandolin, I decided to make this thread where I will document my build and ask questions. Here's what the mandolin will be. old growth Appalachian red spruce, Michigan curly hard maple back and sides, Gabon ebony fingerboard, white mother of pearl nut and position markers, tortoise celluloid side dots, basswood kerfing, spruce bracing, ebony bridge, nickel hardware, pearloid or pearl (if I can find them) tuner buttons, ivoroid/black/ivoroid binding, and a Michigan curly hard maple neck. Here are the questions I have.
Is billet split important for the back and sides? One of the questions I have been asking myself as I create a list for the materials is, What would Lloyd Loar do? Would Loar have used maple with any runout?
I know the bracing is spruce, but what species?
what are the binding dimensions and what are the dimensions of each ply of the binding?
What are the dimensions of the back and sides?

[billhay4]

Gibson used all kinds of maple during the Loar era, and cut it all kinds of ways.
How the maple is split will affect the grain, but not the structure of the instrument.
All kinds of spruce are used for bracing. Adi is considered the stiffest perhaps. Get it right on the quarter for maximum strength.
I'd get a set of Loar plans if you are wanting to know exact dimensions. HoGo's (member here) are considered quite good. But, different Loars had different numbers.
Bill

[sunburst]

...Would Loar have used maple with any runout?...

Ol' Lloyd, if he happened to be in the Gibson building rather than out gallivanting around playing music and promoting Gibson, would apparently accept spruce with considerable run out, off quarter cut, poor book match, slip match, miss-match, or nearly anything. That being the case, I'd say use any maple you like the looks of and rest assured that Lloyd would approve.

[rcc56]

Yeah, folks like to impart a mythically Stradivarian quality of workmanship to the Gibson factory, but it just wasn't so. They were reasonably conscientious about their final prep work and VERY good with their finishes. You won't see any sandpaper scratches on a pre-depression F-4 or F-5, or even on most A models; but they were not extremely choosy about their wood, and not necessarily careful about their sawing and book matching. And their fret placement was sometimes just plain awful.

So, if you want Gibson quality, you need be less concerned about run out than if you want Strad quality. You get to make that choice.

People also assume that the current quality of red spruce is equal to the stuff that was available 100 years ago, and that's rarely true. If your stuff is truly old growth, than it might be as good as the old stuff, but not many of those trees have survived. Whatever variety you use for both your top and your bracing, make sure it's good and stiff, and has a nice tap tone that is both snappy and resonant.

Lynn Dudenbostel has told me that the best spruce he has is from eastern Europe, but he doesn't use very much of it because his customers mostly insist on red spruce.

If you truly want a Strad quality instrument, you will have to do all the things that the Cremonese did, but remember that Gibson did not go to that much trouble. If this is your first instrument, you might want to save the extra special wood and construction techniques for your second effort. And be aware of the difference between fact and myth. There are a lot of myths floating around about the old Italian violin makers also, like salt water and magic varnish formulas, etc.

[sunburst]

People also assume that the current quality of red spruce is equal to the stuff that was available 100 years ago, and that's rarely true...

I did this in photoshop. The red spruce is from a tree that I, along with others, cut and processed. That is the reason that I knew the age of the tree and was able to count the annual rings to make the determination that I was highlighting the very important magical decade of the '30s! (There is no gold glowing "smiley" or I would use it.) '30s guitars are more well regarded than '30s mandolins, but if you move the highlights away from the center seam by 10 annual rings, they would indicate the '20s. When someone says "the wood that was available to builders in the '30s (or '20s) was better" I wonder what is so much better about the wood on one side of the highlight than the other. Everything from the highlights to the outside edge of the top is wood that was around (still in the tree, of course) in the '30s after all.
Yes, I suppose I am being somewhat cynical, but we have equally good, if not better red spruce available today than was used in most of the Loar-signed mandolins. We see more spruce with wider grain used currently than was typically used in the "golden age", but that has no direct correlation to quality... if quality means density, stiffness and stability. If quality means how pretty and traditional looking it is, well, that's different. If quality means straight grained, minimal run out, well matched wood with a good stiffness to density ratio, we can certainly do better in that regard than typical Loar top wood.

[Timbofood]

What’s rcc56 says brings back the fact that Gibson was and, still is, a factory with production schedules and orders to fill. That fact will dictate what material on hand will be used for manufacture. The material was sourced by buyers who knew what the end product was but, may or may not have known specifics of the method of construction, they bought logs, sent them to mills, who in turn sent the to the factory. I have spent hours over the years discussing this very point with several instrument builders around the Kalamazoo area. When the F-5 was designed by Mr. Loar, he gave some general specifications about material but, nothing about grain orientation. Consequently, the seat carvers were fed material from the stock which met specie qualifications. How it was matched, or mismatched, shows the “casual perfection” demands of production. When Mr. Loar returned from his engagements, the instruments were “tested”and labels signed. The guy on the line was responsible for a great amount of the actual work. Fine tuning with regard to testing was what Lloyd did.
Feel free to correct me if I am way off base but, that’s how I have always considered the how and why for the seemingly random woods used as far as grain orientation.

[rcc56]

When I last bumped into John Arnold a couple of years ago, he told me he had just finished cutting two old growth red spruce trees.

John: "I got 3 or 4 hundred tops from the trees."
Me: "Was any of it any good?"
John: "Yeah, 30 of them were very good. I sold the rest to [manufacturer's name deleted]."

[Timbofood]

When I last bumped into John Arnold a couple of years ago, he told me he had just finished cutting two old growth red spruce trees.

John: "I got 3 or 4 hundred tops from the trees."
Me: "Was any of it any good?"
John: "Yeah, 30 of them were very good. I sold the rest to [manufacturer's name deleted]."

thats “quality control”

[HoGo]

Hello Marn66,
What is your background related to building? How good are you at woodwork?
Building F-5 AND especially targeting Loars is one of the hardest challenges in string instrument building. By FAR more involved than building Stradivari clone.
If you are not experienced save the good wood for your next one, prefereably the next one after number 10...
The runout in curly maple is inevitable - the curls are just that grain running out and into the wood in waves.
You can get all the numbers and specs in a set of drawings, you will need quick reference anyway.
For wood I would just ask Bruce (Harvie) AKA Spruce around here for Loar style wood nd he will supply everything in really "authentic quality" (meaning all the typical selection quirks mentioned in earlier posts) for good price and ready to use. Forget about getting really matching binding unless you custom order couple hundred pounds of each style right from the chinese factory (no more celluloid production elsewhere in the world, AFAIK).
While you're waiting for the wood, sharpen your planes, chisels and gouges and prepare your hot hide glue-pot, this is gonna be loooong ride. We will gladly answr your questions but be prepared for some failures along the way, this Loar cloning is not easy task even for seasoned maker.

[billhay4]

Good advice from Adrian.
Bill

[Timbofood]

Marn66,
What plans are you using? The investment in a set of Adrian’s will be an excellent investment to be sure. And he’s dead on with the “wait for number 12” to use the good material. Getting a feel for the shapes on the first ones.
Best of luck!

[Marn99]

Marn66,
What plans are you using? The investment in a set of Adrian’s will be an excellent investment to be sure. And he’s dead on with the “wait for number 12” to use the good material. Getting a feel for the shapes on the first ones.
Best of luck!

I am using Adrian's plans, I am also planning on building some practice instruments before I build a good one, ie lower grade spruce, low or unfigured maple, striped ebony (which I think is attractive in its own right) etc.

[Timbofood]

Wise move, once you get a “feel” for shaping and learning to stop just before things go “snap” you will be ready for your really nice material! Loooking forward to some progress reports and pictures if you can. Good luck!