Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 104

Thread: bach cello suites vs. partitas sonatas

  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    winter park, florida
    Posts
    573

    Default

    From playing through a bit of the Third Cello Suite and the Prelude to the Third Partita it seems to me the cello suites are probably the way to start out. As far as not getting discouraged and some of the technical issues anyway. Any thoughts? (It's all incredible music) Mike
    mikeguy

  2. #2
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Carol Stream IL USA (Chicago area)
    Posts
    3,358

    Default

    I agree. They're a little less technically challenging than the violin ones.
    Mandolins:
    Mid-mo M11 (#1855)
    Ovation MM68 (#490231)
    New flute CD:
    Wellsprings 2: Joyful!

  3. #3
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    30,753
    Jim

    My Stream on Soundcloud
    Facebook
    19th Century Tunes
    Playing lately:
    1924 Gibson A4 - 2018 Campanella A-5 - 2007 Brentrup A4C - 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin - Huss & Dalton DS - 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead - '83 Flatiron A5-2 - 1939 Gibson L-00 - 1936 Epiphone Deluxe - 1928 Gibson L-5 - ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo - ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo - ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo - National RM-1

  4. #4
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Hawaii
    Posts
    36

    Default

    Violinistically speaking, I've played both of these (on the violin). The 'cello suites are MUCH easier technically and musically than the S&Ps. There really is nothing that I can think of in violin literature that is more difficult - phrasing, intonation, and "voicing" of the parts in the violin S&P takes tons of study, listening, and an adequate idea of the structure of the piece. With the suites, it's pretty straightforward. The main challenge of the suites is a bowing issue.

  5. #5
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    winter park, florida
    Posts
    573

    Default

    It's time someone in the mandolin world stepped up and recorded entire suites/partitas/sonatas of Bach instead of exerpts (preludes, courantes, whatever). When John Williams recorded all four lute suites on classical guitar it was a defining moment as far as establishing the guitar as a serious legitimate instrument. (With all apologies to Segovia)Are you listening Theile, Marshall, Carlos, whomever I missed?) A daunting task but surely someone is capable at this stage of the instruments development.
    mikeguy

  6. #6
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,489

    Default

    I'm not so sure a full-lown recording or the suites or the sonatas and partitas on mandolin (or mandolin family instruments) is an especially good idea (as opposed to treating them as study material, which is an excellent idea). I have played both on mandolin (and mandola) and classical guitar, and the music is far more idiomatic to realize on guitar (although the suites do sound lovely on mandola). I have heard many (if not all) of the extant recordings of various movements on mandolin and, with all due respect to the artists involved, the gap vis-a-vis the extant guitar recordings -- not to mention Nigel North on the lute, or any of the relevant recordings on cello or violin -- is, frankly, considerable. The Thile live recording for example has good energy but falls short (significantly) on ornamentation. The Marshall recording lacks tonal refinement (and legato). I think this has much more to do with the inherent limitations of the mandolin than the artists. Basically, there is no point to recording these pieces on the mandolin unless the instrument can add something (just ask yourself, would a Millstein or a Ma learn something from such a recording?) A plausible case can be made in this regard for guitar (cf. for example, the introduction to Stanley Yate' edition of the cello suites for guitar) and certainly lute, but I have yet to hear a convincing case for mandolin.
    Robert A. Margo

  7. #7
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Carol Stream IL USA (Chicago area)
    Posts
    3,358

    Default

    I read somewhere that Thile is preparing to record the violin partitas. Of course, it could take a long time.
    Mandolins:
    Mid-mo M11 (#1855)
    Ovation MM68 (#490231)
    New flute CD:
    Wellsprings 2: Joyful!

  8. #8
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Carol Stream IL USA (Chicago area)
    Posts
    3,358

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by (margora @ July 09 2005, 20:29)
    Basically, there is no point to recording these pieces on the mandolin unless the instrument can add something (just ask yourself, would a Millstein or a Ma learn something from such a recording?)
    I see your point, but i disagree a little. I think any time someone does something that was previously considered impossible, it energizes all other players. Witness the stir that that Jake Shimabukuro's ukulele video caused here a few weeks ago. And IMHO, pointless albums are recorded every week anyway, so it wouldn't do much harm.
    Mandolins:
    Mid-mo M11 (#1855)
    Ovation MM68 (#490231)
    New flute CD:
    Wellsprings 2: Joyful!

  9. #9
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,489

    Default

    Playing Bach on the mandolin hardly constitutes the impossible. It has long been done (many examples are documented in the Sparks book). Chris Thile is a wonderful musician and I am sure many mandolinists would draw inspiration from a complete recording of his of the sonatas and partitas but the standard here is not what the general mandolin world thinks.
    Robert A. Margo

  10. #10
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Carol Stream IL USA (Chicago area)
    Posts
    3,358

    Default

    I think a few other people besides you and i know that the standard is high, but we have to start somewhere. If you point me to one available album of Bach played on mandolin (an entire album, not just one little Bach piece thrown in for spice), i'd probably buy it. I don't think such an album exists. I don't like everything that Chris Thile does and i think he is a wonderful musician but hasn't matured yet. But if he records his Bach album, i'll buy it.



    Mandolins:
    Mid-mo M11 (#1855)
    Ovation MM68 (#490231)
    New flute CD:
    Wellsprings 2: Joyful!

  11. #11
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    winter park, florida
    Posts
    573

    Default

    Margora, I would respectfully disagree with the guitar as an instrument being more idiomatic than mandolin for Bach. Don't get me wrong I am a huge fan of Bach on guitar but the problem lies in libertys that artists take when making their transcriptions. Specifically adding notes/chords (and worse in some samples).i.e. Julian Bream's transcription of the prelude to the first cello suite. For many this is sacrilgige. The violin pieces appear to translate verbatim to the mandolin with the exception of bowing which allows more legato. I agree Yo Yo Ma probably won't gain anything from Theile's interpretation but until he does it how do we know? Do you say OK Pablo Casals did it best no one else should even attempt it? Baroque ornamentation is not some secret science. You may not be able to pull off the more extended ornaments but many others are very possible. I just feel it's time for the instrument to be given a chance. And there's people out there with the technique to do it. Time for someone out there to step up to the plate. Mike
    mikeguy

  12. #12
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,489

    Default

    The fact that one can play the sonatas and partitas on the mandolin more or less using the same left hand fingering on the violin does not make them idiomatic for the mandolin (nor would one necessarily use the same fingering, anyway). The same is also (more or less) true of the Paganini Caprices. Some of them are playable on mandolin, some of them are marginally so, and, unless you are from another planet, some of them aren't.

    As for guitar, the current standard is the Stanley Yates edition of the cello suites. As Mr. Yates points out, one can play the cello suites as in on guitar but the notion that this has some greater claim to authenticity than, say, adding bass notes is mistaken. The guitar is a different instrument than the cello; one must imagine what Bach would have done had he adapted the pieces for guitar.

    Many years ago the Australian mandolinist Keith Harris gave a highly informative interview in Mandolin World News where he discussed the very issue of playing the sonatas and partitas on the mandolin. Harris at the time was arguably the best classical player in the world. He concluded that the pieces sounded better on the violin. For my money the best classical mandolinists in the world today are various Germans. Gertrud Weyhofen clearly possesses the technique (and, more importantly, the musicianship) to play Bach, but she hasn't (to my knowledge) made a recording. Not long ago I had a discussion with Tamara Volskaya about playing Bach on the domra. She plays a great deal of Bach but not certain pieces because, I am paraphrasing, she claims she can't make them work. Tamara routinely plays the most demanding violin repertoire at the same tempos as any concert violinist.

    My fundamental point is that this is a truly monumental endeavor that requires someone not only to have the technical ability to play the notes (of which there are many people) but also the imagination to make these pieces sound as if they were written for the mandolin. The best guitarists -- on very rare occasions, it should be emphasized -- can make Bach sound as if it were written for the guitar. Doing the same on the mandolin is what I have trouble wrapping my brain around.

    Believe me, though, if Mr. Thile puts out a recording of a complete suite, I will be right up there at the front of the line to buy a copy. There are many purely technical issues of playing these pieces and he is quite resourceful at coming up with solutions to technical puzzles, among his many other skills. As I said several exchanges ago, as material for enhancing technique and musicianship there is arguably nothing better than Bach.
    Robert A. Margo

  13. #13

    Default

    Thile going so strictly "classical" would certainly raise a few eyebrows, but I don't think it's likely to happen soon. #Some lutenists have taken to recording the cello and violin works too. #I tend to favor dedicated repertoire over transcription/arrangement, but I have dabbled very minimally with the concluding allegro from BWV 1003. #Frankly, it works better for me playing a 6-course mandolino fingerstyle than on a Neapolitan mandolin with a plectrum, in spite of the differences in tuning. #It would be much more amusing to me if a character like Paul O'Dette elected to record the violin sonatas and partitas on such an instrument than if anybody endeavored to play them on modern mandolin...but I'm weird.

    Maybe not Bach, but there is so much guitar and mandolin(o) music of the era that is of some quality and is utterly devoid of champions, there isn't any chance of it being exhausted in my lifetime. #I'd rather look there for my musical fodder.




  14. #14
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    winter park, florida
    Posts
    573

    Default

    First Mr. Margo, Thank you for your reply. I think these discussions are interesting and educational. Sometimes I find myself playing devil's advocate as I studied classical guitar with some amazing musicians and loved the Bach transcriptions for guitar more than anything else in the repertoire. I looked up Mr. Yates website and found some interesting articles he wrote while working on his Doctorate in Texas. While he states the Bach violin music translates very well to guitar he finds the cello suites troublesome. While discussing these problems he states "This is not the case with the cello works... in order to produce an effective transfer to the guitar a degree of alteration must be made. These changes involve not only the addition of notes but also the alteration of notes." He then procedes to discuss in various chapters how he goes about making the suites adaptable for guitar. While I can't say I've done an exhastive study playing all the cello suites from the original on mandolin, don't the cello suites seem to adapt to mandolin without adding and altering notes? The small amount that I have looked at seem to transfer very well. This is my point in saying this music may traslate to mandolin better than guitar. If we go so far as to add and alter notes isn't something lost? I remember reading Hemingway's "Islands in the Stream" only to fing out his fourth wife had "edited" it after his death as she was "sure " he would make the same changes. I found that somewhat disturbing. Micheal L. Irwin
    mikeguy

  15. #15

    Default

    I don't think Bach had such a sense of reverence for his music as modern musicians looking back do. #He was a working musician who took no qualm with modifying his own work or that of others for a number of varied situations. #Compare BWV 1006 for violin to BWV 1006a for lute or the fugue from BWV 1001 to BWV 1000 for lute. #...Or listen to Vivaldi's concerto op. 3, no. 8 #for comparison to Bach's BWV 593 for organ. #There are countless similar examples. #Bach (or whomever the period arrangers were) didn't seem to feel altering music to make it idiomatic to a specific instrument compromised its quality.




  16. #16
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Hawaii
    Posts
    36

    Default

    I think the trick is careful modification. If we listen to pieces "modified" by composers that were written by other composers, it's usually recognizable but heavily ornamented of stretched out as the ground.

    Modification is good. Butchering of pieces, as I has been done occasionally, is sacrilege.

  17. #17
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Turlock, CA
    Posts
    89

    Default

    Thile taught the Bach class at the mandolin symposium this year. He seems to have quite a passion and respect for the music. I think he said his goal was to do a recording of the sonatas and partitas.

  18. #18

    Default

    I'd pay for that...but I still don't think it's likely to happen soon.

  19. #19
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    30,753

    Default

    Many years ago -- 1983 to be exact -- Mike Marshall and Darol Anger recorded a Lp called the Duo. On it Mike recorded the Bach Partitia #3 in E Major. I recall that Mike, in an interview, said that it was more work than he had ever put into a single piece.

    Jim
    Jim

    My Stream on Soundcloud
    Facebook
    19th Century Tunes
    Playing lately:
    1924 Gibson A4 - 2018 Campanella A-5 - 2007 Brentrup A4C - 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin - Huss & Dalton DS - 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead - '83 Flatiron A5-2 - 1939 Gibson L-00 - 1936 Epiphone Deluxe - 1928 Gibson L-5 - ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo - ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo - ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo - National RM-1

  20. #20
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Hawaii
    Posts
    36

    Default

    I'd like to see somebody attempt the Ciaconna from the d minor partita. I'd think it was close to impossible to play it on mandolin exactly like it's written for violin.

  21. #21

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by (jgarber @ July 11 2005, 19:56)
    Many years ago -- 1983 to be exact -- Mike Marshall and Darol Anger recorded a Lp called the Duo. On it Mike recorded the Bach Partitia #3 in E Major. I recall that Mike, in an interview, said that it was more work than he had ever put into a single piece.
    Neil Gladd concertizes with BWV 1006. The prelude is particularly effective on mandolin. I think I remember it was that prelude featured in the wee video of Thile that was circulating a while ago.

    I've never tried the chaconne (or whatever nationality of spelling you favor), but that style of arpeggio from the piece's climax is the kind of thing that classical mandolinists thrive on.

  22. #22
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Hawaii
    Posts
    36

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by
    I've never tried the chaconne (or whatever nationality of spelling you favor), but that style of arpeggio from the piece's climax is the kind of thing that classical mandolinists thrive on
    Us violinists too. But I think the main challenge of the Chaconne (if you'd like to use that term) is the proper voicing and accentuation of the ground of the Chaconne.

    If somebody could play it satisfactorily, I'd happily say that the S&P are possible on the mandolin. After that, I'd ask for the last movement of the C Major sonata (allegro). Now THAT would be interesting.

  23. #23
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    winter park, florida
    Posts
    573

    Default

    Of all the Sonatas and Partitas, which one would be the easiest to start with from a technical standpoint?(for mandolin) I'm working my way through the third cello suite now but want to move up to one of the S&Ps. Thanks, Mike
    mikeguy

  24. #24
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Bucks Co., PA
    Posts
    2,745

    Default

    Anyone else heard violinist Gregory Fulkerson's recording of the S&P's? Highly recommended!!
    The S&P's generally get harder. Start with #1. Best of luck.



    Wye Knot

  25. #25

    Default

    I don't know whether this has already been mentioned on this thread so far; there is an excellent collection, titled MandoBach and published by Wolfhead Music, which includes those movements from various violin partitas and sonatas of Bach that work optimally on mandolin. Highly recommended!
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

Similar Threads

  1. Newbie help: Bach cello suites
    By todbille in forum Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance
    Replies: 26
    Last: May-18-2015, 3:16pm
  2. Mike marshall's bach sonatas and partitas
    By Buddah in forum Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance
    Replies: 7
    Last: Feb-27-2008, 6:20pm
  3. Bach cello suites
    By danielpatrick in forum Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance
    Replies: 4
    Last: Jul-15-2007, 10:56am
  4. Bach Cello Suites
    By Dena Haselwander in forum Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance
    Replies: 40
    Last: Jan-07-2006, 9:53am
  5. More on Bach Cello Suites
    By Jack Roberts in forum Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance
    Replies: 11
    Last: Nov-18-2004, 11:05am

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •