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Thread: Why keys of B and B flat?

  1. #151
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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    In a jam secession I can’t believe you couldn’t have sang it in F or G. If it was a performance it would have been learned and practiced, and should be in key that absolutely suits singer but a jam is spur of the moment and really just for fun

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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Just change real estate when jamming in lesser visited keys and take chord shapes up the neck. True, it limits open string options, but 1-4-5 can go anywhere.
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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    A little OT, but there was a great late 18thC Scottish fiddle composer called William Marshall who wrote a good number of tunes in Bb and Eb. One day he was asked "Maister Marshall, why d'ye write tunes in sic hard keys?" "Och" replies William, "ah dinna write tunes for bunglers". I think he was saying "Beacuase I can".

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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Quote Originally Posted by maxr View Post
    A little OT, but there was a great late 18thC Scottish fiddle composer called William Marshall who wrote a good number of tunes in Bb and Eb. One day he was asked "Maister Marshall, why d'ye write tunes in sic hard keys?" "Och" replies William, "ah dinna write tunes for bunglers". I think he was saying "Beacuase I can".
    There is a recently published book about a Minnesota based Norwegian American fiddler, his tune book has numerous tunes in B flat, E flat, E major and even a waltz that goes to D flat. It's presumed he did it to show off technique.

    For those that care the book is "Ole Hendricks & his tunebook" by Amy Shaw published by University of Wisconsin Press.
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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    I've come late to this thread, so I'm sure it's been mentioned already, but I thought one reason for B in Bluegrass was that otherwise it would just be Luegrass. OK, l'll get my coat.

    Another reason would be that in first position it contains some handy blues notes on the open strings.
    Kinda like E for guitarists.

    Bb is popular for e.g fiddle tunes such as Northumbrian hornpipes, where again commonly used accidentals are on the open strings.

    So while it's good to master all keys in closed positions, B and Bb have some advantages in open positions too.
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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bren View Post
    Bb is popular for e.g fiddle tunes such as Northumbrian hornpipes, where again commonly used accidentals are on the open strings.
    I used to play Northumbrian pipes - mine were in D, but I believe more traditional sets were often in F - could that explain Bb Northumbrian tunes?

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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    I'm a horn player so pretty comfortable in those flat keys...on saxophone and bass. Increasingly, I see big band charts in sharp keys and I don't get it? Why not just stick with the easy keys?

    On mandolin it's not that hard to play different keys in closed positions, but what's cool to me is playing those keys in first position using open strings when available, not that I'm adept at that. You really get different colors. Jody Stecher demonstrated that on an old VHS instruction tape I have. Very striking stuff. I wonder if that is available as a download now? Highly recommended, from what I remember...

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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Lowtone2: correct me if I am wrong but if you read in sheet music in C major on a Bb instrument then you are actually playing in Bb or Eb for an Eb horn? So no sharps or flats? But we would be playing in 2 flats or three on our instruments. It is really a matter of what you are used to. Or are you talking about transposing on the fly?

    i have been exploring Bb and F tunes on fiddle and mandolin and is fine. Getting used to reading in those keys as well. Just need to find tunes in E and B for the sharp end and Eb and Ab and the requisite minor keys.
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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Lowtone2: correct me if I am wrong but if you read in sheet music in C major on a Bb instrument then you are actually playing in Bb or Eb for an Eb horn? So no sharps or flats? But we would be playing in 2 flats or three on our instruments. It is really a matter of what you are used to. Or are you talking about transposing on the fly?

    i have been exploring Bb and F tunes on fiddle and mandolin and is fine. Getting used to reading in those keys as well. Just need to find tunes in E and B for the sharp end and Eb and Ab and the requisite minor keys.

    I do transpose on the fly, but big-band charts are scored for the different keys the horns are written in. A chart in Eb concert would be written in the key of C for me on barisax, and F for the tenor and trumpets. Bones read bass clef.

    So a chart in concert C is written in A for me and the alto players, and D for the tenor and trumpets. Not really a big deal.

    Harder is playing in a rock or blues horns section and they do everything in E or A. Db and Gb for me on baritone, or Gb and B for tenor. For some reason, most tenor players think of it as F# rather than Gb.




    I get my fake books in C. Transposing is not hard, just takes practice. Did i answer your question?

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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Yes you did answer my questions. I guess I also wonder how this all came about. I know there are melody saxes but those are pretty much obsolete perhaps for their not useful range. We’re all these brass instruments designed apart from the strings and keyboards. Adolph Sax designed his instruments in the 19th century. This article on transposing instruments helps explains a lot to me: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposing_instrument
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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    The keys of F and Bb sit *very* naturally on the mandolin fretboard, as does Eb. But you won't know until you've tried them. I suppose mainly guitarists oppose Eb because they get a fuller sound in E.
    There's a recent custom in which guitarists tune their instruments down a half-step. So the key of E, which has always been common for them, becomes Eb - rather than oppose Eb, they seek it. I've never gotten a satisfactory explanation for this. If anyone has one I'd love to hear it.
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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    For me it's all about the sound. Keys "sound" different to me and it's not just pitch, it's more like different colors. Chords are the same, Gm isn't just Dm at a different pitch, it has it's own character. To cite an example maybe Tennessee Waltz played in G (which I like) has a different feel than played in D which is more common I think. Play New Camptown Races in anything other than Bb and hear the difference. Or Billy in the Lowground in something other than C. It's weird.
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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Ritchhart View Post
    Keys "sound" different to me and it's not just pitch, it's more like different colors.
    This was a prevalent belief in classical music, beginning in the Baroque Period, I think. Different emotional states were ascribed to each key. I've seen lists of them. with detailed descriptions. And not surprisingly, there was considerable inconsistency.

    According to Christian Schubart, in his "Ideen zu einer Aesthetik der Tonkunst" from 1806:

    "B♭ Major
    Cheerful love, clear conscience, hope aspiration for a better world.

    "B Major
    Strongly coloured, announcing wild passions, composed from the most glaring coulors. Anger, rage, jealousy, fury, despair and every burden of the heart lies in its sphere."

    From Charpentier's Regles de Composition ca. 1682:

    B major: harsh and plaintive
    Bb major: magnificent and joyful

    His list is a bit suspect, as he determines both G major and G minor to be "serious and magnificent."

    https://wmich.edu/mus-theo/courses/keys.html
    https://ledgernote.com/blog/interest...tics-emotions/
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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeybear View Post
    There's a recent custom in which guitarists tune their instruments down a half-step. So the key of E, which has always been common for them, becomes Eb - rather than oppose Eb, they seek it. I've never gotten a satisfactory explanation for this. If anyone has one I'd love to hear it.
    It got around the guitar community that SRV tuned down a half step. He tuned down to lower the string tension because of using heavier gauge strings. So all the SRV wannabees had to do the same thinking they'd sound like their hero. I sometimes tune my acoustic down a whole step making the key of E become D for a lower tonal sound. The great jazz guitarist Kenny Poole would tune his guitar down up to 3 whole steps as he was a master at playing bass lines in addition to his chord melody

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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Quote Originally Posted by CBFrench View Post
    It got around the guitar community that SRV tuned down a half step. He tuned down to lower the string tension because of using heavier gauge strings. So all the SRV wannabees had to do the same thinking they'd sound like their hero. I sometimes tune my acoustic down a whole step making the key of E become D for a lower tonal sound. The great jazz guitarist Kenny Poole would tune his guitar down up to 3 whole steps as he was a master at playing bass lines in addition to his chord melody
    Jimi and others tuned down to so-called Eb years earlier.

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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Quote Originally Posted by CBFrench View Post
    It got around the guitar community that SRV tuned down a half step.
    Thanks. Interesting. I recently ran into something with SRV, while recording a take on his "Texas Flood" with lyrics reworked to address the recent arctic blast the state and surrounding area suffered - he'd recorded it in F#. That seemed weird, as E is a big favorite among blues guitarists - in fact, that's how I played it in my "Texas Snow." Now I'm thinking, he was actually playing in G, just down a half step to F#.
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  23. #167
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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Back in 1979 I busked with a guitarist who used a nylon string guitar tuned down two or three steps.

    He was normally a strat-playing Hendrix fan in bands but reckoned that the slack-tuned acoustic guitar was easier on his fingers for long busking sessions.

    I was just strumming along mostly and playing simple melodic lines, but even so it was a good challenge to match keys. It was a challenge to figure out what they were!
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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtone2 View Post
    I'm a horn player so pretty comfortable in those flat keys...on saxophone and bass. Increasingly, I see big band charts in sharp keys and I don't get it? Why not just stick with the easy keys?

    On mandolin it's not that hard to play different keys in closed positions, but what's cool to me is playing those keys in first position using open strings when available, not that I'm adept at that. You really get different colors. Jody Stecher demonstrated that on an old VHS instruction tape I have. Very striking stuff. I wonder if that is available as a download now? Highly recommended, from what I remember...
    I take easy tunes like Soldier’s Joy, Arkansas Traveller and play them in different keys in open position. Since I know them well it doesn’t really take that long to figure them out, funny enough I don’t really play in closed position much since I’m so used to open.
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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    Jimi and others tuned down to so-called Eb years earlier.
    And Dick Dale as well.

    a friend of mine showed me this old time banjo tuning for guitar tuning the lowest string down to C. It made that old Martin sound like a mandocello!
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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    I've heard Dick Dale used piano strings, so he may not be the best person to use as an example.

    Then again, confirming that rumor has been difficult. I'm seeing references to very thick strings, but nothing about whether they were piano strings. Nor low tuning, for that matter. Fun reads, though ... And the in-depth analysis of his rig is fascinating. He sure followed his own path.

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    https://surfguitar101.com/forums/top...page=1#p385251
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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Ritchhart View Post
    For me it's all about the sound. Keys "sound" different to me and it's not just pitch, it's more like different colors. Chords are the same, Gm isn't just Dm at a different pitch, it has it's own character. To cite an example maybe Tennessee Waltz played in G (which I like) has a different feel than played in D which is more common I think. Play New Camptown Races in anything other than Bb and hear the difference. Or Billy in the Lowground in something other than C. It's weird.

    I once started noodling a bit on TW in D, but realized I had far too many songs in that key. So I switched to F, with lots of figures and slides along the strings, rather than across them. I subsequently worked that into a medley: Tennessee Waltz in F, Missouri Waltz in D, and Kentucky Waltz in Eb. Only thing missing is a waltz in G to cover the three most common modulations.

    I'm partial to the key of Eb; when I began playing the guitar more than 60 years ago I used a lot of sheet music for the piano and Eb is probably the most common sheet music key.

    One tune I learned from sheet music about that time was Georgia On My Mind. The printed key is F, and playing the verse (which nobody else does) I found open A and D useful as bass notes (but I would have liked an open G as well). Omitting the verse (or the melody altogether) I've found that Eb works best. Another song that cries out for the key of Eb is ain't Misbehavin'. For some strange reason the Hot Club Quintet did it in D.

    Another song I really love playing in Eb is Min Soldat, (The Shrine of St. Cecilia) a Swedish WWII song (the singer loves her soldier boyfriend in spite of his shabby appearance). It was recorded a couple of years ago by tenor saxophonist Scott Hamilton with a Swedish-Danish ensemble.

    About 10 years ago I wanted to work up an arrangement of Only You but realized I would have to include too much tremolo. So I wrote a contrafact, in Eb, over its changes (Only You -> Uniquely Determined -> ) Determination, a somewhat boppish title. Only then did I realize that the changes were almost the same as There Will Never Be Another You.

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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigskygirl View Post
    I take easy tunes like Soldier’s Joy, Arkansas Traveller and play them in different keys in open position. Since I know them well it doesn’t really take that long to figure them out, funny enough I don’t really play in closed position much since I’m so used to open.
    I've found that St. Anne's Reel works well in Eb, and the Gold Rush (Monroe-Berline) in Bb.

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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Yes you did answer my questions. I guess I also wonder how this all came about. I know there are melody saxes but those are pretty much obsolete perhaps for their not useful range. We’re all these brass instruments designed apart from the strings and keyboards. Adolph Sax designed his instruments in the 19th century. This article on transposing instruments helps explains a lot to me: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposing_instrument
    The main reason is so that horn players don't have to read ledger lines so much. The approximate center of the horn's range is centered on the staff. The same is true for double bass, which actually sounds an octave lower than written. Most guitar music is also written an octave up.

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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Key of B used to frustrate me. Then this past year I found an approach that uses a C form starting at B on the low G string. Started experimenting with a blues kind of scale that goes B - C# - D - Eb - E - F# - G# - A - B. I found a way to do a kind of Jimmy Martin G run that is B - D - Eb - F# - G# - B. It may not be a traditional mandolin approach, but it helped me get comfortable with that scale up and down the neck using that form.

    For key of Bb I just chose an instrumental tune to focus on to learn the scale and get comfortable. It was New Camptown from Wake Frankfield Once I got comfortable with that I'd start learning melodies to vocal songs in Bb, mostly Stanley Brothers like Nobody's Love is Like Mine. So far it's helped pretty well. I'd like to try more in Ab and Eb with a similar exercise.
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