Black Cloud Over Gibson

[TonyP]

Maybe Gibson is some kind of a zombie company that refuses to die, because it's already undead?

I concur Doctor. If it talks like a zombie and walks like a zombie.......

[rcc56]

Well, if we really have the guts to look at Gibson instruments objectively, we find that throughout their history, there are good periods, bad periods, mediocre periods, a couple of very good periods, and periods of inconsistency.

I have not played many Gibsons of recent issue. I've played many old ones. They made a lot of very good mandolins in the 1910's and very early '20's. In my personal experience, mandolins in the later '20's through the beginning of WWII vary much more in quality. The '30's guitars also vary considerably, with a few being really good, a lot being somewhere in the middle, and some not good at all.

The few '50's mandolins I have played were generally not as good as earlier instruments, but better than many later ones. The 50's guitars: I've had three J-45's go through my hands. All had the same bracing pattern and were made of the same wood species. The '54 was the strongest guitar by far, the c. 1944 Banner model was the next best, and the '52 was weaker than the others, but still a passable instrument. I worked on an Epiphone Texan with a '56 J-50 body and a New York made Epiphone neck that was a very good guitar. It was peculiar that a Gibson body that old was used on a guitar with the Epi brand, but those kind of things happened with Gibson in those days.

The '60's and '70's were not good years for either mandolins or guitars. Of the guitars I've played made under the current management, they have varied considerably from quite good to not very good at all, with quite a few falling in the category of mediocre. I can say with a fair amount of confidence that one of the reasons that Gibson bought Flatiron in 1987 was that Flatiron was making a better mandolin than Gibson at that time. The other reason was that Gibson wanted the Bozeman factory.

I have not spent any significant amount of time with any of the upper-line mandolins made in the last 20 years. I have played a few of the modern mid-level mandolins, but I will hold my comments on them, at least until I have played a few more.

I will say that the most consistent and predictable mandolins I've played were the Lyon and Healy A, B, and C models. I've also found that Collings guitars are equally consistent and predictable. I have not seen that level of consistency in Gibsons of any period.

[Jesse Kinman]

I mean nothing ill of Gibson by this comment, so please bear with me...
Hypothetically speaking, suppose Gibson stopped making mandolins, would that make the market better for the high end small shops? Cause the people that would be ordering custom Gibsons would be forced to buy from the next available makers. Or are Gibson fans diehard enough that no other maker would suffice?

[Jeff Mando]

It would only affect the people who only buy new instruments, IMHO. There will be plenty of near mint condition used instruments for hundreds of years, no worries. I don't see the problem, other than people's jobs being lost. Gibson has certainly established their "name" in the history books. Think of Packard, Duesenberg, Studebaker, etc.

Plus, I personally don't see it happening. Gibson will continue, it may not thrive, but somebody will want to take over the name, if it comes to that. "Sears" Craftsman tools are now being sold at Ace hardware stores, for example. Walmart now carries Schwinn bicycles, formerly available only through authorized Schwinn dealers. Times change......

[Willie Poole]

Now everyone will rush right out and buy all the Gibson products that they can find...Speculation does a lot of things to people...

I thought Lyon and Healy was pat of Washburn....I`ll have to check my little information book, which gets bigger and bigger each day that I spend on this web site...

Willie

[MikeEdgerton]

Washburn was a Lyon and Healy brand name. Washburn was actually this guy's middle name.

[Tom Coletti]

People tend to be very clingy to familiar names and the idea of nostalgia is deeply ingrained into culture to a fault, so unless Gibson's current owners implode and bury the name without selling it, I don't see it going away any time soon.

That being said, the "name on a headstock" thing works both ways. Gibson may change hands indefinitely and create an unrecognizable product with only a name in common, but there are plenty of smaller builders who produce faithful Gibson copies under a different name that make our beloved plinky-plonk noises just as well.

[DHopkins]

It may end up like Breedlove. When one talks about Breedlove mandolins, they distinguish between American- or Chinese-made. Though I've never played a Chinese Breedlove, I hear some say there is a definite difference Fortunately, both of mine were made in Bend, OR.

[bjewell]

Fender Japan bailed out Fender USA at that time. Those were great guitars. I don't remember Gibson producing any guitars in Japan. And if they did, they would most certainly not be "inferior."

[MikeEdgerton]

Fender Japan bailed out Fender USA at that time. Those were great guitars. I don't remember Gibson producing any guitars in Japan. And if they did, they would most certainly not be "inferior."

Kind of made in Japan....

https://reverb.com/item/9970469-free...e3_D_BwE&pla=1

[rcc56]

They made a Nouveau F style mandolin also. Parts made in Japan, final assembly in the US. Made in '86 and '87, just before the purchase of the original Flatiron company.

The Nouveau mandolin I have played was actually probably a little better sounding than the F-5's that Gibson was making in-house at the time, but was finished in plain transparent brown.

[Bertram Henze]

...create an unrecognizable product with only a name in common...

A widely accepted approach. The American Budweiser bears no resemblance with the Czech original, but people have been caught in the act of drinking it anyway. Likewise, Chevrolet glued their logo on tiny Asian cars formerly known as Daewoo. Names have ceased to mean anything.

Now back to playing my Fylde, made in a shack in Penrith, Cumbria, England and nowhere else, and man will I hold on to it.

[DataNick]

Pretty nice, concise synopsis presented here

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=apQ9SO7uF60

[Mandolin Cafe]

Gibson Announces Broken-Neck Limited-Edition Les Paul. The Price is $9,999

*takes notes...

[Tobin]

I mean nothing ill of Gibson by this comment, so please bear with me...
Hypothetically speaking, suppose Gibson stopped making mandolins, would that make the market better for the high end small shops? Cause the people that would be ordering custom Gibsons would be forced to buy from the next available makers. Or are Gibson fans diehard enough that no other maker would suffice?

Honestly, I don't think it would make much of a difference at all in the new-production market. Gibson mandolins are produced in such small numbers these days that it may not even be noticeable to other high-end makers. Which is to say, the potential Gibson buyers will instead buy from other high-end makers, but there aren't enough of these buyers to affect production very much when they are spread out to their second-choice makers.

There are a lot of used Gibson mandolins out there too. Those will likely go up in price if and when Gibson disappears from the market. That's where I'd expect the biggest change to occur. All of a sudden, Gibson mandolins will be in much higher demand as people realize "they ain't making these any more".

[Mark Gunter]

Pretty nice, concise synopsis presented here

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=apQ9SO7uF60

Thanks for sharing that one, informative and interesting

[sblock]

... There are a lot of used Gibson mandolins out there too. Those will likely go up in price if and when Gibson disappears from the market. That's where I'd expect the biggest change to occur. All of a sudden, Gibson mandolins will be in much higher demand as people realize "they ain't making these any more".

I'm not sure the logic is watertight here. Regardless of whether Gibson exists or ceases to exist, the number of older, used Gibsons is going to be the same. Current production is tiny, and doesn't even make a dent in these numbers! And, just as you wrote, there are quite a lot of them out there! Most of the diehard Gibson fans seem to be in the market for the older Gibsons, not for the newest ones. The newest ones, particularly at the high end, face very stiff competition from current luthiers. Many MC owners who are in a position to afford it, for example, would likely prefer to commission a new mandolin from Gilchrist, Nugget, Dudenbostel, etc., than, say, get a Ricky Scaggs Master Model F5 from Gibson (not that they make these anymore; they sold comparatively poorly). My own expectation is that the used Gibson market seems quite stable for now, and may be expected to remain that way for the time being, regardless of whether Gibson goes under or not. Put another way, the ability -- or lack thereof -- of Gibson to "make more" in the future has comparatively little effect on the used market.

Of course, markets are notoriously fickle and hard to predict. Ask any stock broker or instrument dealer.

[Charlie Bernstein]

. . . I wonder if there's anyone in the wings with a solid new plan to salvage it?

Yep. Fender.

[Charlie Bernstein]

From the article: “My dream was to be the Nike of music lifestyle,” Juszkiewicz said in an interview.

Any guy who "aspires" to Nike-ness deserves what he gets.

[ollaimh]

Maybe Gibson is some kind of a zombie company that refuses to die, because it's already undead?

fear the waking dead gibson's, a show coming to mandolin cafe and affiliates soon

[Timbofood]

Well, bean counters and capital business corporations don’t care that much about anything but bottom line. There has been a lot of hubbub with “Heritage” guitars in the last few months. Ten of the guys who have been there for fifteen years were “escorted” out the door and four other guys marched out in solidarity! They are making the old Parsons street place into a spot for hipsters to drink lattes and “visit a recording studio” so, let the binders and finishers and so on who have spent a lot of time learning the job go! The whole thing has an aroma which is decidedly unpleasant.

[JeffD]

Gibson Announces Broken-Neck Limited-Edition Les Paul. The Price is $9,999

*takes notes...

From the article:

Oh, and a new neck is not included in the package.

[Tobin]

I'm not sure the logic is watertight here. Regardless of whether Gibson exists or ceases to exist, the number of older, used Gibsons is going to be the same. Current production is tiny, and doesn't even make a dent in these numbers! ... My own expectation is that the used Gibson market seems quite stable for now, and may be expected to remain that way for the time being, regardless of whether Gibson goes under or not. Put another way, the ability -- or lack thereof -- of Gibson to "make more" in the future has comparatively little effect on the used market.

Maybe, maybe not. All I know is that when an artist dies, the price of his paintings usually goes up. When a company goes out of business completely and production ceases, all the existing examples suddenly become collector's items. Will it happen overnight? Maybe not, for the reasons you explained. But I do think the general trend will be that a lot of people who had been "on the fence" about buying a Gibson will decide to go ahead and lock in on one.

[dhergert]

Well, as an owner of a number of vintage Gibson banjos, I can pretty reliably say that the general monetary value of these instruments has not gone up since Gibson stopped building banjos before the Nashville flood in 2010, in fact most of these values have dropped. And although I don't have a large collection of Dobros so I don't watch their values quite as carefully, I don't believe that the general monetary value of Dobros has gone up either.

IMHO, Gibson had flooded the banjo market enough that it will probably take 50 to 100 years for what's left of the post 1986 models to be at all collectable. They're still great banjos, but not collectable.

It seems like recent Gibson mandolin production has not similarly flooded the market. They are still rare enough that they may be more collectable than banjos if Gibson were to go out of business...

I also have some vintage instruments made by Vega and a couple of other now defunct companies... Their monetary values also have not gone up related to their companies stopping production. Where these values have increased, it's been as a result of inflation, a boom economy and a period of extreme-but-rare musical popularity.

Gibson being active and healthy -- or not -- isn't going to change the general monetary values of the instruments that the company has made. Collectability, of which rareity, condition and desirability are the major components, and the prevailing economy, are what will change those values.

For me, that doesn't make these instruments any less fun to own. It might bother some owners if these instruments were primarily purchased as an investment. Personally, I'm glad for what I've got, but I wouldn't bet my retirement on them.

[billykatzz]

That's Henry for you: when the boat is sinking, keep drilling holes in it.