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Thread: Guitar or Upgrade My Mandolin

  1. #1

    Default Guitar or Upgrade My Mandolin

    So i have been playing for about 3 months, I take lessons once a week and play about 2 hours a day. I bought a used "The Loar" LM400 from a local pawn shop for 200 bucks when i started and got it setup by a local luthier.

    Now I have come into a little extra "music spending money" (400 to be exact), and I am wondering what would be more beneficial to my music playing experience. Should I go with a Blueridge Guitar to start learning chords on, to make it easier to follow a guitar when I go to jams..... or do I get a Cumberland Bridge, James Tail Piece and have it professionally set-up( Maybe even have it sent to CA so it is done right)?

    Also it will be a few years before I will be able to upgrade to something like a collings etc.

    Thanks in advance, I have already learned a lot from Mandolin Cafe.

  2. #2
    Dave Sheets
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    Default Re: Guitar or Upgrade My Mandolin

    You can get a decent used guitar for $400, if that's the route you want to go. Guitar and mandolin are very different beasts. Another option would be to stash the money away and put it toward the next mandolin. There are a bunch of really tremendous mandolins in the $1200-$2000 range (used), saving for one of those has this big payoff in terms of sound if you can wait. Your current mandolin is a decent one, and should get the job done for you for now, minor upgrades won't change it much. All that said, follow your feelings, and always buy used
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  3. #3
    Registered User Roger Moss's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guitar or Upgrade My Mandolin

    How much do you want to learn the guitar? $400 will get you a pretty nice guitar, especially if you can find a decent used one. The Loar is pretty sweet as it is, those upgrades won't do much to improve it. I'd go back to that pawn shop and see what they have in the way of guitars first. Sounds like they see some good deals on instruments.
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  4. #4
    Mandolin Player trodgers's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guitar or Upgrade My Mandolin

    If it were me, I would hesitate to invest in upgrades to the Loar. Hold onto that cash, and add to it over time, so when something truly 'better' comes along you will be ready to pull the trigger. In the meantime, practice, play and enjoy the instrument you have. If you stash the $400 in an envelope, and add just $15 to it each week, in a year you will have well over a thousand in hand. That's the time to start looking for a real upgrade!
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Guitar or Upgrade My Mandolin

    Other than learning chords and messing with it, I probably wouldn't be invested time wise as much with the guitar as the mandolin. As i really love the mandolin and really just want a guitar to mess with and learn all the chord progressions, to help with my mandolin playing.... Is the CA bridge not worth the $85.00 plus install and setup on the loar due to it being a "cheaper mandolin"? I do like your idea as well trodgers...... those Collings sure are sweet.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Guitar or Upgrade My Mandolin

    I wouldn't upgrade The Loar. There's this notion that somehow a new bridge will make it sound waaaay better. I'm not saying it can't, but I am saying it probably won't. As long as the tailpiece holds the strings, then i don't see why anyone would upgrade them. It's a hunk of metal that holds strings, what more upgrading do you need? If you already had it set up by a local luthier then it should sound as good as it's going to sound, assuming the guy isn't a hack. Again, there's only so much you can do with a cheap mandolin, and to be frank, I've never heard a The Loar that sounded all that good. I'd say save up. If you want to buy a guitar just for the sake of learning some open chords, then go as cheap as possible. If you're really planning on investing the time to learn to play guitar well then spend more money, but if it's just to aid you in playing mandolin I'd think $400 is waaaay too much to blow on what is essentially a teaching aid for your main instrument. Saving up money is frustrating. It's always tempting to buy the shiny thing you can afford rather than continue to save for the REALLY GREAT thing that will take a few years to afford. However, IMO, it's worth it. The instrument quality really does make a radical jump in the $2k range. I think I spent nearly five years saving up enough to make a big mando purchase (a Brentrup that was a steal at $4k). That was back in 2012. I haven'[t thought about buying another mando since. Okay, fine, I've daydreamed on occasion about the roomful of mandos a lottery win would provide, but for all intents and purposes, I saved a little here and there for half a decade, bought a killer instrument, and no longer think about purchasing anything else. Good instruments are worth the investment, even if saving up for them is really frustrating.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Guitar or Upgrade My Mandolin

    All good advice the best is to save your money toward a better mandolin. The upgrades you mentioned probably won't even be noticed. Look at it this way if you grade a webber at 100 and the bridge improves it 10%, it would then be 110 and your probably could notice that. Say yours is a twenty, if the bridge improved the same percent it would then be a 22, you wouldn't notice the difference but you would have paid the same money. The mandolin you have is great compared with what those of us that started 50 or more years ago. When I started if you wanted a bluegrass mandolin there was Gibson and there was junk. Most of us couldn't afford a Gibson. There are much better lower priced instruments now.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Guitar or Upgrade My Mandolin

    Personally, I like the idea of learning to play the guitar so that you can watch folks at a jam and follow along. Being a guitar player has helped me many times when I was playing a different instrument at some sort of jam, where I didn't know a song, and had to watch a rhythm guitar player for chord progressions.

    With that being said, if you are not going to 'seriously' play the guitar, then there is no reason to spend $400 on a half-way decent entry level instrument. Every once in a while I will wander around the acoustic room in a guitar store and find some very serviceable used or new instrument at 1/2 that price. Keep your eyes open, try EVERYTHING and I feel confident that you will find a decent acoustic that will help you to keep a few extra dollars in your pocket that you can use towards a mandolin upgrade.

    Good luck and keep us posted,

  9. #9

    Default Re: Guitar or Upgrade My Mandolin

    Thank y'all for knocking me to my senses.
    Not knowing much and starting to have slight MAS I read my way into wanting a CA Bridge thinking it would make a huge difference. I may look at some cheaper guitars or try to find somebody I can borrow one from for a month or 2 and learn chords.
    Save up for a 'Better Mandolin' down the road.

  10. #10
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guitar or Upgrade My Mandolin

    I withhold any advice, since you seem to have gone the right way. Putting $400 worth of upgrades into a $200 mandolin -- well, that's a lot to pay for "lipstick for the pig," even if the Loar is better than the average porker. You got a good deal on the LM400, and I'd just enjoy your bargain, and save up for the next step up -- if there is one.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Guitar or Upgrade My Mandolin

    My 2 cents is to buy a decent used guitar (Blueridges are great in my opinion) with your $400 and have a nice guitar to learn on, rather than going for a cheap guitar. You might just end up loving it, and if you don't you can sell it for about what you bought it for. Even if you keep it for a year and sell it for $100 less than what you paid, you've gained some very useful skills on a fun-to-play-and-hear instrument at the price of less than $8.50/month.

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  12. #12
    Mangler of Tunes OneChordTrick's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guitar or Upgrade My Mandolin

    Do you really need to learn guitar chords? Or just recognise the shapes they’re playing? The quick guide is to take the 4 lowest strings on the guitar and invert the pattern. Because after all a guitar is just a big upside-down mandolin . Or just print off a guitar chord chart and learn the shapes and your preferred mandolin versions. As you’re still in the learning stage of mandolin why make it harder trying to learn a second instrument with different tuning?

  13. #13
    Front Porch & Sweet Tea NursingDaBlues's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guitar or Upgrade My Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Rumzy View Post
    So i have been playing for about 3 months, I take lessons once a week and play about 2 hours a day. I bought a used "The Loar" LM400 from a local pawn shop for 200 bucks when i started and got it setup by a local luthier.

    Now I have come into a little extra "music spending money" (400 to be exact), and I am wondering what would be more beneficial to my music playing experience. Should I go with a Blueridge Guitar to start learning chords on, to make it easier to follow a guitar when I go to jams..... or do I get a Cumberland Bridge, James Tail Piece and have it professionally set-up( Maybe even have it sent to CA so it is done right)?

    Also it will be a few years before I will be able to upgrade to something like a collings etc.

    Thanks in advance, I have already learned a lot from Mandolin Cafe.
    So what does your mandolin teacher recommend? What’s going to be most beneficial to your musical growth? You’ve been progressing on the mandolin for about 3 months. Will a guitar help you progress that much faster? At this point you may have a fairly good handle on your learning capabilities. Your mandolin instructor should have a fairly good idea as well. Some folks can learn two instruments simultaneously. Others have much more difficulty. So a take an honest look at yourself and have your instructor do the same. What is going to be in your best interest at this stage of your musical journey?

    Now, let’s go in through another door. Do you want a guitar because you like the sound or the idea of a guitar more so than the mandolin? If you do, then maybe it’s decision time. Don’t toss your mandolin just yet. But maybe it’s time to invest in a guitar and guitar lessons. Then three months down that road, make the decision as to which one you really want to pursue. If you do want a guitar, there are a lot of really good choices out there for $400. And there are a lot of really poor choices out there as well. Once again, you might consider asking your instructor or someone with guitar knowledge and experience to assist you in finding you a good guitar – whether it’s new or used.

    Granted three months is not a long time to establish an instrument preference. However, if you are having second thoughts at this stage, it’s best to do some soul searching to determine which direction you want your musical journey to take.

    If a person is picking up a musical instrument for the first time, I personally feel that he/she spend a minimum of 12 to 18 months on that one instrument before trying to learn another. That way that individual has a reasonable idea of what to expect from the instrument and what musical direction they want to take with that instrument. Additionally they are better able to recognize what kind of features they would like to have, what kind of sound they’d like to get -- in short they have a better idea of what their next instrument purchase should be. But that’s just me. YMMV.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Guitar or Upgrade My Mandolin

    You don't need guitar to learn the chord progressions, you need to train your ears. Go to a site like Mandolessons.com and listen to the guitar parts recorded there and figure out how to comp to them, and while you are at it learn those fiddle tunes too.

    Listen to some bands and pay attention to the bass which is usually playing the root of the chord. After a while you can just hear where a tune is going. Once you can recognize the I IV V progression ( in the key of C,nth at is C, F,band G) work the IIminor and VII minor (Em and Am).

    If you can recognize those you can play along with a majority of songs played at jams.

    Start with The key of G first though.

    Your mandolin instrument upgrade goal should be to get that $1000-1500 instrument.
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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guitar or Upgrade My Mandolin

    My prejudice is that you should put the money towards your mandolinning. Either to start saving for an upgrade, or to use it to join ArtistWorks or similar on line program of mandolin lessons, or to using it to reduce the costs of attending a festival or workshop you wouldn't do at full price.

    I think learning the guitar would be a distraction at this point, and if you already know how to play guitar it would be a bigger distraction.

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  16. #16

    Default Re: Guitar or Upgrade My Mandolin

    Do you have a decent digital recorder? Listening to your practices during your morning commute will do far more for your playing than a guitar or a tailpiece? I think it's an indispensable part of my kit.

    Yes, your smart phone will work. But, even as a "tech guy", I get tired of fiddling with Bluetooth. I throw my practice on a USB thumb drive, plug it into the car, and listen to how AMAZING and incredible and divine my playing is. [/sarcasm]
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  17. #17
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guitar or Upgrade My Mandolin

    I'd buy a Tonegard for the mandolin and spend the rest on a guitar. The Tonegard can move to your next mandolin. You'll notice a difference.
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    Registered User mee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guitar or Upgrade My Mandolin

    I understand you wanting to know guitar chords to follow, but my experience is you can quickly learn to hear those chord changes and best practice is to play along with songs on radio or CD. And find youtube songs to play along with. Even if you learn to recognize the chords a guitarist is playing, you won't always be able to see them when you are playing alongside. Playing by ear is far the best. And once you get a good ear you may be ready for that mandolin upgrade. but I will admit that I have a guitar also and love using it to put chords to new songs but otherwise I do not consider myself a guitarist.

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    Default Re: Guitar or Upgrade My Mandolin

    Starting with the guitar prior to gravitating to the mandolin really helped me with the mandolin.

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    Default Re: Guitar or Upgrade My Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    I'd buy a Tonegard for the mandolin and spend the rest on a guitar. The Tonegard can move to your next mandolin. You'll notice a difference.
    Yeah...good point. The tone-gards really do make a difference, perhaps even more so on a lower-end instrument.

  22. #21
    Registered User Simon DS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guitar or Upgrade My Mandolin

    I played the guitar for many years before even considering playing a mandolin. The guitar is very versatile, can even be a drum. I mean if you slap a mandolin, well, it doesn’t like it. The two are very different. I love the mandolin now, and though I think it’s more demanding it’s a thrill to play a clean melody with good tone, climbing up out of the structural notes that hold the song together. In your position I think I’d work hard at the mandolin and then especially study harmony, doublestops, the circle of fifths and the scale of G with doublestops up to the seventh fret completely off by heart. Then any time a guitarist looks at you, you say, ‘how about we play a song in G or Em? Again.’ Watching others play guitar will help you feel when and where the tone centres are shifting, usually 145. One of the problems I’ve had is that I like to sing, so with the mandolin I have these two melodic instruments which still don’t know quite how to play together.
    So much to learn.

  23. #22
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    Default Re: Guitar or Upgrade My Mandolin

    I started out on a borrowed guitar while saving to buy a banjo, then after a couple years got sucked into mandolin. I agree that playing guitar helps you be able to recognized the chords others are playing, and I think all of the instruments help out my playing on all of the others (which now also include mandocello, a little bit of OM, and bass). You don't have to be able to play guitar to learn that skill as others have mentioned, but it does help. Guitar is also a very versatile instrument that offers some things the mandolin doesn't, and vice versa.

    I'll also agree that you can get a pretty decent used guitar for under $500. One of my main players (and also my first guitar purchase many years ago) is a Guild D40 that I got with a case for $500 because it had some lacquer checking issues. That said, if you just want the guitar to play around on a little and learn chord shapes, I'd say find you an inexpensive pawn shop special (or get the Rogue from Musician's Friend and learn how to set it up) to piddle with, and put the rest of the cash towards your next mando purchase. Or, better yet, see if you can find a friend or relative to let you borrow a guitar for a while until you decide if you really want one.

    I agree with not putting a ton of cash into the Loar, and I'd also advise against upgrading until you can get up into the $1000-2000 range. Lots of awesome mandolins there. There are some good ones in the under $1000 range, but you'll notice the biggest difference when you step up. For me that step was a $900 Silver Angel Econo that I still play. It's as good as many mandolins costing much more, and a huge step up from my Kentucky and Eastman models (which also have their merits, but if I could keep just one it'd be the SA, for certain).
    Chuck

  24. #23
    Registered User Roger Moss's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guitar or Upgrade My Mandolin

    If you want a simple guitar to knock around on and can do some simple setup (adjust neck, lower saddle), this might suit you. I had one and, once setup, played pretty nicely. The only tools I needed were a phillips screwdriver for the truss rod cover and a sheet of sandpaper to lower the saddle (allen wrench is included). Definitely the price is right.

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    Default Re: Guitar or Upgrade My Mandolin

    My opinion would be no to acquiring a guitar a this point. I played guitar for a year or so before I started on mandolin and while it helped me develop some useful skills which have translated to the mandolin, I would think that concentrating on the instrument that you've really just started on would be a better plan. Sure, I can sometimes see (depending on my point of view) what the guitarist is doing (if they are playing first position chords) but that is not a particularly good reason to start learning guitar. Folks will usually say what key they want to do a song in. Time spent ear-training and finding the key on your instrument would be more productive. A little music theory will also go a long way in telling what chords to expect in a key. Soon you'll be able to hear where a chord a basic chord progression is going.

    I think you'll be much happier with your progress on the mandolin, if you don't confuse things with a different instrument. It's a distraction you don't need right now. You'll have more focused productive practice.

    I'd put the $$$ away for the possibility of a future upgrade, or if you still want a guitar down the road. As long as you've got a decent, playable mandolin, save your money, hone your skills and don't get caught up in MAS. I know it can be tempting but I'd just woodshed with the instrument that you've got. At this point, practice will make you sound way better than any accessories. Squirrel that dough away and put it toward the instrument you'll want in a year or so, when you'll have a much better idea what you want.

  26. #25
    Registered User Eric Platt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guitar or Upgrade My Mandolin

    (Does not add to discussion).
    Last edited by Eric Platt; Apr-03-2018 at 5:30am. Reason: Deleted
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