Let’s talk ovals Vs f’s

[soliver]

Hey all, ...
So I am saving up for an upgrade and I’ll be saving for a little while yet. I’ve been pretty convinced that I want an oval hole A Model, but can’t help but doubt myself a little. I have been playing an Eastman MD305 with f holes and have really loved it, but I know that investing in a more serious instrument is what I want to do when I can. I spent some time at a local shop playing some oval hole mandos (a Kentucky KM 272 and a Collings MTO:... the different ends of the spectrum ) and really liked the sound so I was pretty well convinced I wanted to go the oval hole route. But at the Jam tonight I was told by a seasoned player that ovals just don’t hold up in a jam session (refering to loudness). That would be a bummer since 99% of my playing (other than practice) is at the Jam session.

I’m a little confused because I’ve also heard others say that ovals can be really loud... so which is it?

Tell me what you think about oval hole instruments? Do they stand up in a jam? What are your general thoughts on ovals versus f’s?

Thanks in advance
S

[Denman John]

I play an A style Kimble oval hole and it's a fantastic mandolin. It can hang in a jam no problem, but that isn't where it's sweet spot is. It shines when played with a lighter touch and music that lets it breathe. It has a more open tone compared to an f hole mandolin, so the cut isn't as focused. It chords very melodically but it doesn't have the classic chop sound that a lot of people are looking for in a jam.

If most of your playing is in a jam setting, maybe a f hole mandolin would suit you better? The Kimble has been my only mandolin for the past 4 years and I've been very happy with it, but I'm thinking of getting an A style f hole mandolin for when I'm jamming/playing with others ~ that's my justification anyway

[Jim Parriott]

I would second the advice you received from your experienced player in the jam. I have an MT2O and a couple of f-hole A's - the MT2O is a fantastic mandolin with a beautiful sound and sustain, but will never take the heavy pick my F's take. By design, it just doesn't have the pop and chop for a BG jam. My advice would be to buy the best f-hole A you can and make it your primary mandolin. When you win the lottery, buy that oval for a great, and very different, second.

[colorado_al]

the MT2O is a fantastic mandolin with a beautiful sound and sustain, but will never take the heavy pick my F's take. By design, it just doesn't have the pop and chop for a BG jam.

My MT2O is usually the loudest at the jam. So it may depend on the particular instrument and how you play it.
I can get very good chop from it and I use the same 1.3mm Dunlop Primetone that I use on my F hole mandolins, with no problems whatsoever. I think that there are many who believe that oval hole mandolins can't go head to head with F hole mandos, but I disagree. I also like the versatility that the MT2O has. It has way more bottom end that many F hole mandolins lack.

I recommend playing as many mandolins as you can to help you dial in on the tone that you like, not the tone that others say you should have. And make sure that whatever you buy, you can play it first, or have ability to return if purchased from afar.

[pops1]

An oval can be as loud as an ff. One of the differences is an ff projects away and an oval isn't so straight line in it's sound, but more round. Doesn't mean it can't be as loud. When I played my A2 years ago I was always heard in a jam. If you are doing bluegrass you won't have as much chop, but in a jam there will be plenty of others to make up for it, and they still have chop. I played old time and could be louder than several fiddles, banjo and guitars with an old '22 A2. Get what you like the sound of, they can both work. You will play it more alone than with others, and that is where it is important to like the sound of your mandolin. I love the sound of mine, but I like it the best when I can hear it. No one hears the quality of most instruments in a jam like in a quieter setting. Get what sounds good to your ears and enjoy it.

[lflngpicker]

I like the fully carved A4 mandolins that Howard Morris builds in his shop in Oregon. Really rich, tone with plenty of volume. Sometimes they are available used for under $700. Good luck with your search.

[soliver]

Thanks for the advice guys... I’m shooting for a Silverangel Econo A... I like the points about versatility and sounding better in a 1 on 1 setting,... I personally found the chop of the 2 ovals I played in the shop to be very pleasant... very thick and bassy. Thanks!!

Keep it coming gang! Any more thoughts?

[Eric Platt]

Either can be heard in most jams. At least old time (and I would presume bluegrass). One player in our circle just got a new (to him) vintage Gibson oval hole, and he can be heard just as well as the guy playing the Clark F model.

However, I have a preference for oval hole mandolins. With 4 of my soon to be 6 mandolins having oval holes. So take it for what it's worth.

My mentor plays an oval hole in his main band with 2 accordions and often between one and 3 fiddles. He can easily be heard.

[Narayan Kersak]

People will say all kinds of things. I have a flat top oval hole. It can be just as loud as and arch top f, AND it's got a more full sound in my opinion. It's also a Mowry, which I think makes a huge difference, due to quality. When I dig in hard in a jam, it sounds awesome, and when it's just me, a light touch really makes it drip sweetness.

People often forget how subjective perception is. Many years ago I posted three different sound clips, each of the same tune. One was my Mowry, the other an oval hole Eastman (I think), and the third an expensive Gibson. Very few could really tell the difference between which was which!

So you just got to find one you like, and realize quality, brand name, and even the day it was built all make a difference!

[pheffernan]

Do you intend to keep the Eastman? If so, I see no reason why it can't be your jam mandolin while its new sibling takes over home duty. Were I in your position and looking in your price range, I'd have my eye out for a vintage Gibson oval, like one of those 1921's right before the Loar era.

[MikeZito]

Last year I bought two mandolins from a Cafe sponsor - a Gibson F-9 and a Kentucky KM-272. Despite the nearly $2,500 difference in price, the Kentucky was just as loud as the Gibson.

[soliver]

All great info gang!... Thanks for the input, I am feeling more confident in my want for an Oval. It will be a great task for me to have set aside the funds for a $1000+ instrument, so I don't want to be disappointed or wanting to send it back, esp. having worked this hard to get it.

Eric, thanks for that... say, that sure is a nice looking armrest on your octave

Narayan, thanks... thats kinda what I was thinking. I realize that everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but my concern arises when I feel like I have "done my research" but then it get shot down or discredited by an experienced musician. I appreciate the reassurance.

Pheffernan, yes I intend to hang onto the Eastman. I love it and if nothing else, I might save up trade in the 305 for a higher quality f hole down the road. My intent for now is mostly to upgrade, making whatever I get be my primary player. The immediate plan is to save up for the SA and then maybe have the first 3-5 frets on the Eastman replaced... I've worn them out!

MikeZito, I knew you'd chime in with your 272 love ... good on you for that! While I liked the 272 they had at the place I visited, I just liked the refinement of the Collings' tone over the Kentucky, as I'm sure many would comment on (LETS NOT GO THERE PLEASE).

I recognize that Collings and SA are different instruments, but I am hoping that the SA would have some of the same tonal refinement ... frankly, I just can't afford a Collings and the distressed look that Ken does to his instruments is VERY appealing to me.

On a side note, I was hunting youtube for sound clips of Oval hole mandos and found this:... this is the very place I visited (Maple Street Guitars in Atlanta) and that MTO is the very instrument I played:

[Dave Sheets]

My second good mandolin is an MTO, it is quite loud, but it doesn't "cut" or project as well as my flatiron f-hole A. What you can hear from an instrument in a jam or band setting isn't just volume, but it's also the voicing or tonality of the instrument, some tones are easier to hear in a jam session, others get masked or buried. F hole mandolins are very easy to hear in a jam, they have that "pop" that makes them easier to pick out. The MTO is plenty loud, but it's more of a rounded tone that may not cut as well. But playing solo, it feels great. Good luck with your purchase and have fun.

[Shelagh Moore]

I play an oval A in sessions without any particular volume difficulties. But, as mentioned previously, it really comes into its own in quieter sessions or at home when the tone and complexity can be fully appreciated.

[Eric Hanson]

That MT-O is a great instrument.
Hope you are able to find the instrumnet that speaks to you.
Enjoy the search!

[JEStanek]

I prefer the oval hole sound but I tend to play alone. The purpose of the f holes on the archtop mandolin (thanks, Lloyd) was to help with the projection of the instrument so it could be heard in mandolin orchestras. The F hole allows the voice to cut through. If I were to play mostly in Jams I would be more inclined to play an archtop f-holed mandolin.

These aren't hard and fast rules and the Collings has an elevated fingerboard and a longer neck free of the body than a Gibson style oval holed mandolin. The Collings would be more of a hybrid sound between the two.

I've never played a Collings MT-O but every MT I played was a fine instrument.

Jamie

[Br1ck]

As a fan of the Silverangel tone, I think it is a pretty good middle ground mandolin. Almost as sweet as an oval, but it's chop is pretty good too. I play mostly fiddle tunes. When I try out an old Gibson A, it is wonderful on the more Celtic leaning fiddle tunes, less so on the more blue grassy ones. Modern ovals like the MTO are brighter than an old Gibson. Reason to have them all. Then you also want a modern blue grass mandolin too. I figure you could cover all bases with four different mandolins, five if you play Italian. Oh, you need a beater too.

[fatt-dad]

Now, do you want a conventional oval or a hybrid oval?

Some will say, "No way would I ever get an oval hole mandolin with the integrated fretboard, etc.!" Some will say, "I'd only get the 14-fret version with the elevated fretboard!"

I say, if you want an oval hole for all that sweet, Gibson-like sustain - go buy a paddle- or snake-head Gibson. Cause if you think making an a5 with oval holes provides the same effect, it doesn't. Matter of fact? I don't really like them, 'cause my ears are calibrated to my A3. Well, and otherwise, I prefer the A5 for most else.

I'll never part with my A3 though!

f-d

[LastMohican]

For me, the honest answer is that I own an F Body/F hole because, as I became steeped in Bluegrass music, the lion's share of the greatest players played this configuration. I know there are exceptions...Tim O'brien, one of my favorite players, immediately comes to mind. But, the truth is the truth...while I now have a better understanding of the difference in sound between F's and ovals, I was originally drawn to F body/F holes because I saw this as an essential part of the lore and mystique of bluegrass and I wanted in!

[JeffD]

The way I have heard it:

Response to an ff hole instrument played well - "oh what a beautiful sound on that mandolin"

Response to an oval hole played well - "oh what beautiful music"

[soliver]

Now, do you want a conventional oval or a hybrid oval?
...
f-d

I'm thinking the newer hybrid style... elevated fretboard etc.

As I said above, I played that very MTO in that Maple Street video and really enjoyed the deep hefty chop and the full round sound.

The way I have heard it:

Response to an ff hole instrument played well - "oh what a beautiful sound on that mandolin"

Response to an oval hole played well - "oh what beautiful music"

I like that

Elaborate though.... you think the specificity of the "beautiful sound on that mandolin" speaks to the pointed directness of the cut you get with f holes? So then "beautiful music" means more how the oval hole instrument integrates with the others?... just curious.

[soliver]

Just an update on this... I decided to take a long lunch again today because I had seen online that Maple Street Guitars in Atlanta had gotten some new Eastman's in so I wanted to go try out their MD404. I was really impressed by it!... The mahogany (guessing probably a sapele) was very very attractive. It seemed to have a good, loud and resonant tone. Very bass heavy and a little lacking in the mids and highs but still very very nice. I knew that as much as I liked it, that I wouldn't want another Eastman because I feel its time to upgrade, but I liked the way it sounded,...

That is until I decided to compare it to the Collings MTO just for grins... oh what a mistake,... Collings ugh,... what an evil temptress!!! While I know that it is not possible to afford a Collings, I know that if I could, I'd drop the cash in an instant.

So what did I learn or was I reminded of today:

1. Eastman Ovals are nice, maybe even nicer than the Kentucky's to my ear, but I've heard this years KM272 are even better than the older one I played, so that is a judgement that I reserve the right to change.

2. That level of quality (tonal and crafsmanship-wise) that you hear about from instruments that cross over that $2000-$3000 mark is absolutely real and I have truly witnessed it. The kicker is that you can hear an instrument in the lower range and be pleased by it until you pull out those big guns and just be completely awe struck with how different it is. I couldn't play the MD404 again and hear the same sweetness of it in the same way as when I first played it... it was really weird.

3. Driving in the city limits of Atlanta really sucks.... I should remember this because every time I get on I-75 and start to head into town I just get frustrated and spew venomous words inside my head. But for the love of playing mandolins, I sacrifice.

[pops1]

I usually play an ff hole mandolin, it sounds beautiful by itself, different than my old Gibson, but very resonant and lovely. The reach up the neck is important to me and the Gibson just can't offer that. The Gibson is the best sounding mandolin I own tho. But I have recently been smitten with a Martin. The little cant top, light string, short scale mandolin that also sounds very lovely. Ovals don't need to be played up the neck to be warmer or more resonant. More like a guitar, played at the soundhole, which is more comfortable. These days if I pick up something other than my main mandolin it is usually the Martin. Don't over look these little sweet hearts.

Just saw this: https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/125189#125189

[soliver]

Thanks for that pops... that's a nice looking Arches Mando, but I'm guessing "Ft" stands for Flat Top... I had a Flatty and it didn't suit me.

[colorado_al]

Thanks for that pops... that's a nice looking Arches Mando, but I'm guessing "Ft" stands for Flat Top... I had a Flatty and it didn't suit me.

I know you've been eyeing a Silverangel econo. This just popped up in the classifieds and is a screaming deal
https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/125188#125188
Looks like it could use a new nut, but that's not hard nor expensive