Jerry Garcia On Mandolin

[journeybear]

That's right - A new box set of early recordings by Jerry Garcia includes a live version of "Deep Elem Blues." which features hs instrumental wizardry on the mandolin. This song later became a staple at JGB shows. I just heard about this today from a Dead Head friend, who texted me this link to a largely favorable review in Down Beat, which included a youtube clip of this song, of all things. He's accompanied by his first wife, Sara Ruppenthal, in a duo caled "Jerry And Sara." (There are a dozen different groups represented - another revelation for me.) As far as I can tell, it's the only time his mandolin playing was recorded. At least, it's the only such track in what sounds like an exhaustive collection. It's called "Before The Dead," containing four CDs. Oh, and my birthday's coming up in a couple of months.

[RFMando]

Wow! Thx journeybear! I've never even heard a rumor of Jerry on the mando, ever!

[Roger Moss]

I knew Jerry taught banjo in his early days but mandolin? Total surprise. Cool as heck though.

[Willem]

This made my lunch break!

[journeybear]

I've never even heard a rumor of Jerry on the mando, ever!

Me neither! A complete surprise. Knew about banjo, of course - it even made its way into the very end of the single verion of "Dark Star" - and pedal steel as well, though that was mostly on other bands' recordings. This was a revelation. And he's got some chops!

[JeffD]

His style on that song is very old timey. I love it.

[samlyman]

He played fiddle too... although perhaps not too well because pics of him with a fiddle showed the fiddle with tape marking finger positions.

[Quinlan]

That is a sweet version of a great tune! I saw this one the other day. Joe k. Walsh and Grant Gordy. It starts at 4:35 https://youtu.be/PVVe2_sggKc

[Bill Cameron]

News to me, but unsurprising. The man was brilliant, stoner or not. But for most of us, I suspect if our best friend/regular side-project pickin partner was D Grisman, we might stick to guitar and banjo too, the mandolin chair being filled as it were.

[journeybear]

Well, a couple of things are a bit off there. First, the chronology. This was recorded in 1963, and Garcia didn't meet Grisman until the next year, during his trip east. I'm not sure how much time they spent together during the next several years, while Garcia delved into the possibilities of the electric guitar, but I suspect it was not that much. Grisman says a chance meeting at a baseball game led him to be invited to play on two songs on the 1970 album, "American Beauty" It's fair to assume that Grisman had put a lot more time in on the mandolin during the intervening six years. It would thus be a wise choice to have him play on "Ripple" and "Friend Of The Devil." I'm not sure how the recording sessions were run, but it seems they were striving for a live sound; the best approach would thus be Garcia on guitar and Grisman on mandolin.

Again, the Garcia-Grisman collaborations came much later, beginning in 1990.

Lastly, I object to the dismissiveness implicit in calling Garcia a stoner, at least in reference to this time period. The man isn't around to set the record straight. It's easy enough to assume there was weed around at this time. But his serious involvement in the drug scene was two years away, when Grateful Dead became the house band at Ken Kesey Acid Tests.

I think it's best to stick as closely to known facts as possible and avoid drawing conclusions from conjecture.

[Roger Moss]

Well, a couple of things are a bit off there. First, the chronology. This was recorded in 1963, and Garcia didn't meet Grisman until the next year, during his trip east. I'm not sure how much time they spent together during the next several years, while Garcia delved into the possibilities of the electric guitar, but I suspect it was not that much. Grisman says a chance meeting at a baseball game led him to be invited to play on two songs on the 1970 album, "American Beauty" It's fair to assume that Grisman had put a lot more time in on the mandolin during the intervening six years. It would thus be a wise choice to have him play on "Ripple" and "Friend Of The Devil." I'm not sure how the recording sessions were run, but it seems they were striving for a live sound; the best approach would thus be Garcia on guitar and Grisman on mandolin.

Again, the Garcia-Grisman collaborations came much later, beginning in 1990.

Lastly, I object to the dismissiveness implicit in calling Garcia a stoner, at least in reference to this time period. The man isn't around to set the record straight. It's easy enough to assume there was weed around at this time. But his serious involvement in the drug scene was two years away, when Grateful Dead became the house band at Ken Kesey Acid Tests.

I think it's best to stick as closely to known facts as possible and avoid drawing conclusions from conjecture.

I think you might have been reading too much into these comments. Nobody was implying that Grisman's association with Garcia was contemporaneous with the recording, but that the ongoing possibility of Grisman's involvement later meant that Garcia no longer needed to be the one to supply a mandolin in in his music. As to his being a stoner, I was a user marijuana in my youth, and I was considered a stoner. Use of multiple substances is not a prerequisite.

[Mando Mort]

Jerry never ceases to entertain and for that I am grateful.

[Freddyfingers]

I am glad I stopped in here today. This was a refreshing thread to a crazy week. I will look up how to get this collection after I type this. A big thanks for posting this thread! As a musician and a Dead head, it’s a little gold mine. I can go back and listen to recordings of me many years ago, and I try and figure out where I made the turn from playing notes of others, and playing my notes. I don’t think there was a switch that was pushed, rather a slow and gradually change. This recording will hopefully give me a glimpse back to when Jerry went from playing others notes, to being the Jerry that we all know and love. If no one told me that was Jerry on mandolin, and singing, I would have never guessed. Perhaps a few more listens. But somewhere along the way he transformed into himself, and that’s what I hope to hear.

This is a great forum!

[fentonjames]

On the subject of Grisman playing mandolin on Ripple so Garcia could play guitar, I don't believe that. On that song, David Nelson played lead guitar and Dave Torbert played bass. Both from the New Riders of the Purple Sage. JG strummed an acoustic on it.

[mmuller]

On the subject of Grisman playing mandolin on Ripple so Garcia could play guitar, I don't believe that. On that song, David Nelson played lead guitar and Dave Torbert played bass. Both from the New Riders of the Purple Sage. JG strummed an acoustic on it.

Ripple is the Dead playing, with Grisman on mando. You're thinking of Box of Rain. Torbert on bass so Phil could sing (Hunter's lyrics). Nelson on tele. On Ripple, Grisman was originally playing throughout the whole song but eventually got edited to just the bridges. It's 2 mandolin overdubs, both single lines, 1 panned hard left, the other right. Very effective in raising the dynamic of those sections.

Friend of the Devil has Jerry playing the descending line and singing, Grisman on mando and Bob Weir playing the acoustic flat picking stuff. Nelson can be heard doing the flat picking on Cumberland Blues (Workingman's) while Jerry plays the banjo part. Pro banjo guys consider Jerry kind of a hack, but still, his musicianship and his individual voice comes through for a sound like no one else.

As far as Jerry, I think he could play a cowbell and make musical magic. Keep in mind, he had just started to play pedal steel when he did Teach Your Children. Instant classic and I don't believe anyone with the fanciest chops could've done that.

Check out my Dead band. I transcribed everything on most every album and play them live. www.deadonlive.com Here's our Workingman's/Beauty show.

[Mark Gunter]

I think Jerry’s about like other multi-instrumentalists, just ‘cause you can play ‘em all doesn’t mean you want to play ‘em all on recordings or in live shows. More fun to play with other musicians who are really into this or that instrument.

[journeybear]

On the subject of Grisman playing mandolin on Ripple so Garcia could play guitar, I don't believe that.

That's not what I said. I think Grisman got invited to play on those songs after a chance meeting. Garcia got the idea that mandolin would fit nicely on them, and knew Grisman would be the right choice. Would he have played it himself otherwise? Who knows? I have no idea if Jerry even kept playing mandolin after that 1963 recording, or even thought mandolinistically. (Yes that's a word. That's exactly how I, and a lot of mandolinists think. I think. ) He may have used it occasionally back then in order to vary the sound of his duo, putting down his guitar to pick up the banjo or fiddle or mandolin on certain songs. I'm guessing at this, but it's a reasonable eassumption, being a fairly common practice among small combos. I've been known to play tenor steel guitar, banjolin, mandola, even harmonicas, just to switch things up a bit. I don't think Garcia had any notion of playing anything other than guitar in these instances, and Grisman's presence provided an opportunity to offer some variety. It could just as easily have been a chance for a fiddler, if one had been around. Thankfully, Grisman was included, and two classic mandolin features were produced. And Grisman's presence on the world scene was launched. Grateful for this.

I think you might have been reading too much into these comments.

Nah. I think he was off-base and said so, and why. But I don't want to continue that direction. Not the way of peace and love.

I think Jerry’s about like other multi-instrumentalists, just ‘cause you can play ‘em all doesn’t mean you want to play ‘em all on recordings or in live shows. More fun to play with other musicians who are really into this or that instrument.

Yeppers. Jerry truly bonded with electric guitar in a way and to an extent that few others ever have in recording history. He also did remarkably well with pedal steel, an instrument that many say takes at least a decade to master. I'm not sure what led him to banjo, but he did all right with that, from what I've heard. His skill on the mandolin in this performance is noteworthy. I'd like to hear more examples, if they exist. I surmise they do not, or they would have been included in this collection. This leads me to conclude it wasn't as inspiring for him as the other instruments he played. Too bad. It would be intriguing to hear this aspect of his talent develop. But then, as we all know, mandolin isn't for everybody.

[allenhopkins]

...Pro banjo guys consider Jerry kind of a hack, but still, his musicianship and his individual voice comes through for a sound like no one else...

Well, Garcia's banjo work on the Old and In the Way album, with Grisman, Peter Rowan, Vassar Clements et. al., was remarkable for someone missing half the middle finger on his picking hand. Here's a YouTube vid (audio only) of the Black Mountain Boys in concert, labeled March 1964: Garcia on banjo, Eric Thompson on guitar, David Nelson on mandolin, and Robert Hunter on bass. It's 25 minutes long, so I'm not going to post the whole thing, but it's worth a listen. Nelson's mandolin is excellent, the vocals aren't -- sounds like a bunch of kids who really love bluegrass, and have spent a lot of time working on the instrumental side of it, figuring that the singing "will come around."

Took a while for that, I guess...

[Bill Cameron]

Well, a couple of things are a bit off there. First, the chronology. This was recorded in 1963, and Garcia didn't meet Grisman until the next year, during his trip east. I'm not sure how much time they spent together during the next several years, while Garcia delved into the possibilities of the electric guitar, but I suspect it was not that much. Grisman says a chance meeting at a baseball game led him to be invited to play on two songs on the 1970 album, "American Beauty" It's fair to assume that Grisman had put a lot more time in on the mandolin during the intervening six years. It would thus be a wise choice to have him play on "Ripple" and "Friend Of The Devil." I'm not sure how the recording sessions were run, but it seems they were striving for a live sound; the best approach would thus be Garcia on guitar and Grisman on mandolin.

Again, the Garcia-Grisman collaborations came much later, beginning in 1990.

Lastly, I object to the dismissiveness implicit in calling Garcia a stoner, at least in reference to this time period. The man isn't around to set the record straight. It's easy enough to assume there was weed around at this time. But his serious involvement in the drug scene was two years away, when Grateful Dead became the house band at Ken Kesey Acid Tests.

I think it's best to stick as closely to known facts as possible and avoid drawing conclusions from conjecture.

No dismissiveness intended, like I said he was a brilliant musician on all sorts of instruments, and his interest in mind-altering substances is more than conjecture, to put it mildly, although a bit off-topic. I have no knowledge of when that all got started. In retrospect I slightly regret using the word ‘stoner’ though as some perceive it as a perjorative.

I certainly didnt mean to imply that JG dropped mando as soon as he met Grisman, or because he met Grisman, just that he wasnt known for playing it in his post-folkie days. Which is why this thread exists.

By 70/71 Grisman was playing mandolin on GD tracks, as you noted, while Garcia was playing banjo and steel but noticeably not mandolin. In the next few years they played together in Old And In The Way....a band which displayed considerable virtuosity without half trying, composed as it was of some of the finest players of their particular instruments ever to take a stage.

But hey, conjecture can be fun.

[Bill Kammerzell]

I decided to purchase this strictly for historical perspective.

[journeybear]

Thanks for clearing that up, Bill. I'm glad to get things a bit wrong when it means getting the overall picture right. Some things send up a red flag, like when I get the notion someone's being glib about the Sixties. Like when somone says. "If you remember the Sixties, you weren't there." Nails on chalkboard, that is. Au contraire, frère! I was there, and many of my most vivid memories are from that vibrant time.

I certainly didnt mean to imply that JG dropped mando as soon as he met Grisman, or because he met Grisman, just that he wasnt known for playing it in his post-folkie days. Which is why this thread exists.

Yeah. As I said in the OP, I never knew he played it at all. Which is a little surprising, now having heard him play it. He was no slouch. Perhaps he felt he'd gotten all he could out of it, or that he decided it wasn't for him. Similar to his limited involvement with the pedal steel. Even though he provided some excellent tracks to various recordings by CSN, NRPS, David Crosby, Jefferson Starship, Grateful Dead itself, and a few others, it seems he either grew tired of it or said all he had to say with it. Just a few years and a few tracks, but some glorious moments. That high note after the second chorus of "Teach Your Chldren" is one such, a single note of exquisite beauty.

I guess it always comes down to, to each his own. Jerry certainly provided us with a treasure trove of delight with his guitar. Others have done the same on their respective instruments, as Dawg has with his mandolin.

But hey, conjecture can be fun.

Sure enough. Sometimes that's all we've got.

[Russ Donahue]

Hey J Bear....thanks for bringing this to our attention. Picked up a copy and been enjoying it for several days now. Great document from the "folk scare" days, and filled with wonderful tunes. One more piece in the puzzle that was Captain Trips!
Best,
Russ

[Vega CB]

Thought these links might be of interest to readers of this thread:

http://www.thebestofwebsite.com/Band...anjo_Years.htm - by Sandy Rothman about Jerry's pre-Dead banjo picking and bluegrass life.

http://cloudsurfing.gdhour.com/archives/176 - by Pete Wernick of Hot Rize on his early-60s bluegrass experiences with Jerry; makes mention of Jerry switching from banjo to mando, as Pete only played banjo at that time.

[Mark Miller]

Great stories. Thanks for posting.