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Thread: anodize or powder coat talipiece (?)

  1. #1
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    Default anodize or powder coat talipiece (?)

    Looking into buying a certain aluminum tailpiece, but the holdup seems to be the gold plating process. Anodizing or powder coating would suit me just fine and ordering unplated might get it here sooner. Which would be the most durable, and who/where would be the place to send it to get done? Near VA would be nice.

    Thanks very much...dan

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    Registered User Roger Moss's Avatar
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    Default Re: anodize or powder coat talipiece (?)

    Depends on what effect you're looking for. Anodizing isn't a coating, it's a procesd of oxidizing the surface of the metal. It is quite durable. Powder coating is an actual coating on the surface. It goes on as a powder and is baked at high temperature until it forms a durable surface. It can be thick and is almost hard as nails. Has powder coating been offered for the tailpiece? It usually coats the entire object. If you dont want to increase the bulk of the tailpiece then anodizing would be best. I also don't know if powder coating would affect the resonance of the instrument. I would opt for a plating, personally.
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    Default Re: anodize or powder coat talipiece (?)

    Thanks for your reply, Roger. Since there's an issue with plating by the maker, i don't mind going another direction. At the moment, anodizing is looking good. Now i need to find someone who does it well.

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    garded
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    Default Re: anodize or powder coat talipiece (?)

    A typical powdercoat is 2mil thick if they know what they are doing. That's the same thickness as a garbage bag so there is no added bulk. There are literally hundreds of different powders and colors with some being transparent. You can get some really cool effects that anodizing can't do. Powdercoat is non toxic unlike anodizing but it's still expensive to get all the equipment together. Same with anodizing if you want to do it more than a hobby. I don't believe tailpeice adds sustain so would opt for powdercoat as I picked that process because of it being non toxic and very durable. YMMV.

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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: anodize or powder coat talipiece (?)

    Roger Moss has it right -Anodic treatment of Al.Alloy is done to give it a protective coating of 'artificial Oxidisation',which is what it is. However,there are coloured anodic treatments available - 1) Anodise the item. 2) Dye the anodising.

    Anodising is pretty soft,& in the aircraft industry (& others) where it's widely used,it's followed up by another protective treatment,usually primer & then finish paint.

    I'm familiar with powder coating as well,something else that widely used on aircraft. I wouldn't recommend it for a tailpiece though. It can be rather thick & it most definitely looks exactly what it is - a plastic coating. Also to carry it out,it requires the coating to be 'fixed' to the item,this can be done by heating the 'whatever' & then dipping it into the powder,or by electrostatically charging the 'whatever' & applying the powder as a spray. The powder is then required to be 'heat cured' - not something that you want to subject a tailpiece to - unless you want to spend a fair bit of time hammering it back to shape !!!.

    Hold out for the Gold plating - you won't be dissappointed !,
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    Mangler of Tunes OneChordTrick's Avatar
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    Default Re: anodize or powder coat talipiece (?)

    I'm with Ivan, looks great on my bike, wouldn't want it on a mandolin

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    Default Re: anodize or powder coat talipiece (?)

    Anodising is pretty soft,& in the aircraft industry (& others) where it's widely used,it's followed up by another protective treatment,usually primer & then finish paint.
    Ivan, not wishing to be disagreeable, but in my experience this statement is not true. Anodizing is definitely not soft. It is an aluminum oxide, the same material grinding wheels and sandpaper grit are made of. If you try to drill or ream an anodized piece you find out fairly quickly that it devours steel reamers or cutters. It is however, extremely thin, much thinner than a coat of paint, so it can be scratched through with a hard object. I have never seen it painted over, having first dealt with it in avionics applications. It does get dyed and sealed commonly as part of the process. The advantage over paint is it is massively harder than even powder coat and part of the surface so there is no peeling or lack of adhesion. The disadvantage is that it is ten times thinner than a coat of paint so it can wear off or be scratched eventually. In spacecraft or some aircraft application that tiny weight savings can be significant also.

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    Default Re: anodize or powder coat talipiece (?)

    All the info is appreciated. Feel free to set the record straight, but isn't it so that the piece would have to be nickel plated first and then gold plated (unless gold will bond directly to aluminum)? i've seen lots of gold plating wear through, so the quality of the jobs may vary with whoever is doing it. i'm not looking for flashy, and maybe anodizing would serve the purpose just as well for me.

  11. #9

    Default Re: anodize or powder coat talipiece (?)

    Can an aluminum substrate be gold plated?

    Len B.
    Clearwater, FL

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    Default Re: anodize or powder coat talipiece (?)

    Anodizing is functionally adding more aluminum to the surface like electroplating, then dyes add color.

    Powder coating is an oven melted polyester glazing ..

    I added a facing of ebony on the cover of my James Tailpiece... (IDK what TP you have)

    It replaced a Gold over Nickel Lebeda TP will sell thar one .. it did wear off the high points.



    gold is soft thats a given .. maybe apply gold leaf?





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    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: anodize or powder coat talipiece (?)

    Quote Originally Posted by mandroid View Post
    Anodizing is functionally adding more aluminum to the surface like electroplating, then dyes add color.

    gold is soft thats a given .. maybe apply gold leaf?
    ....
    ANodizing is adding oxygen to surface of Al, not adding Al. The item slightly thickens - few microns but in engineering this must be counted with. On the surface the layer of Al2O3 is harder but slightly porous so it accepts dyes and needs to be sealed. I've seen pieces anodized at home with great results.
    I think with current knowledge just about anything can be gold plated, even plastics. I guess it's all matter of intermediate layer of some compatible material, like plating with copper first.
    Gold leaf is applied with glue so it is much less durable than plating and can peel off.
    Adrian

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    Default Re: anodize or powder coat talipiece (?)

    Anodic treatment adds an artificially produced coating of Al.Oxide to the surface of the item. The AO coats the aluminium base & prevents more oxygen from reaching the surface. Anodising is a controlled proces,unlike natural oxidisation which could produce pitting, thus weakening the aluminium.

    Anodising isn't very durable,& even if you had it done in anodic Gold,i don't think it would look as good as proper gold plating,& yes,the item would have to have a pre-plating process prior to the Gold plating. 9ct Gold is pretty hard,but as you get closer to 24ct,it becomes softer,but even then,if it was more heavily plated (thicker),24ct would last a heck of a long time if it wasn't constantly rubbed.

    IMHO - The only thing that looks like Gold plating - is Gold plating. Substitute anything else,& you'll be disappointed,
    Ivan
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    Default Re: anodize or powder coat talipiece (?)

    seen an electron scanning microscope image and the surface is like a honeycomb, i presume the added colors lie in the recesses.
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    Default Re: anodize or powder coat talipiece (?)

    Who makes this aluminum tailpiece? I've never heard of one.

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    formerly Philphool Phil Goodson's Avatar
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    Default Re: anodize or powder coat talipiece (?)

    From the Eastman website: "..... Tailpiece:Eastman Cast Aluminum Tailpiece ,,,,," (my bold)

    Don't know if that's what's being talked about.
    Phil

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    Default Re: anodize or powder coat talipiece (?)

    My experience here is from a job working the processing of integrated circuits with Al pads. You cannot directly apply gold to Al and get it to adhere well without a lot of pressure and high temperatures (i.e. bonding gold wire to Al pads). Al has a natural oxidation layer that forms, anodizing is just making that oxidized layer thicker and adds color (or not), making it easier to apply a sprayed coating and getting it to adhere. There is no reason to plate an Al tailpiece beyond aesthetics. I have an untreated Al pick guard on a Precision bass that I made 35 years ago that shows no staining at all. Untreated Al will be a dull gray color over time, but it will be less affected by sweat than a plated piece of metal. the chrome plated steel cover on my ancient Flatiron is so worn away that it will have to be stripped and re-plated to make it consistently shiny again.
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    Default Re: anodize or powder coat talipiece (?)

    Leafing is not a good option either, the adhesive (varnish) must be “just right” and on a possibly uneven surface getting the leaf to lay out well, would be challenging, to say the least. Combined with friction, I agree with Adrian, this would not be money well spent. Have it plated and just wait for it.
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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: anodize or powder coat talipiece (?)

    Aluminium is usually Zinc plated / copper plated & the Gold plated. Here's a Gold plated Al.Alloy Chrysler wheel done by the Gold Plating Co.,Manchester UK,
    Ivan
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Default Re: anodize or powder coat talipiece (?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Kelsall View Post
    Aluminium is usually Zinc plated / copper plated & the Gold plated. Here's a Gold plated Al.Alloy Chrysler wheel done by the Gold Plating Co.,Manchester UK,
    Ivan
    Click image for larger version. 

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    OMG what a repulsive thing.
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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: anodize or powder coat talipiece (?)

    From Roger Moss - " OMG what a repulsive thing ". How'd ya go on with one of these then ?,
    Ivan
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    PS - The ''laughing'' icon.in my last post was an error. I must have clicked on the wrong one. It implies a derisory response to the last post - which was most certainly unintended !.
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    Default Re: anodize or powder coat talipiece (?)

    Have you taken up driving then Ivan?

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    Default Re: anodize or powder coat talipiece (?)

    On the Bugatti they are dandy, on a rusty Chevy Impala, they look well...silly.
    Timothy F. Lewis
    "If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett

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    Default Re: anodize or powder coat talipiece (?)

    i've decided to abandon the idea of the gold plated aluminum tailpiece and will see if i can get the new and improved model directly from Mike. Your help is appreciated and you've likely steered me in the best direction. Many thanks to everybody....dan

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    Default Re: anodize or powder coat talipiece (?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Timbofood View Post
    On the Bugatti they are dandy, on a rusty Chevy Impala, they look well...silly.
    No mandolin content and granted, I live in Mississippi and spend way too much time in pawn shops looking for deals on vintage instruments, but......

    I've noticed that pawn shops loan money on "rims" usually with the tires attached! Talk about a hard way to make a buck on a hot 100 degree day.....the customer drives to the pawn shop, the manager goes to the parking lot, they negotiate the loan amount, then the customer borrows a jack and removes the rims -- one at a time -- replacing them with his "spare set" of stock rims that he brought to switch with, usually two in the trunk and two in the back seat! Just for fun, ask yourself, "how fast can I change four tires?" Anyway, it would probably take me an hour, probably two hours with breaks......

    FWIW, most of the cars I see around here are of the rusty Chevy variety, rather than the Bugatti.....

    And, not saying my life is perfect, but I am grateful that I have never had to "pawn my rims" -- knock on wood!
    Last edited by Jeff Mando; Jun-02-2018 at 1:33pm.

  30. #25
    Registered User Roger Moss's Avatar
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    Default Re: anodize or powder coat talipiece (?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mando View Post
    No mandolin content and granted, I live in Mississippi and spend way too much time in pawn shops looking for deals on vintage instruments, but......

    I've noticed that pawn shops loan money on "rims" usually with the tires attached! Talk about a hard way to make a buck on a hot 100 degree day.....the customer drives to the pawn shop, the manager goes to the parking lot, they negotiate the loan amount, then the customer borrows a jack and removes the rims -- one at a time -- replacing them with his "spare set" of stock rims that he brought to switch with, usually two in the trunk and two in the back seat! Just for fun, ask yourself, "how fast can I change four tires?" Anyway, it would probably take me an hour, probably two hours with breaks......

    Anyway, most of the cars I see around here are of the rusty Chevy variety, rather than the Bugatti.....

    And, not saying my life is perfect, but I am grateful that I have never had to "pawn my rims" -- knock on wood!
    Continuing off topic, but, selling to a pawn shop might be okay, but I've had such consistently awful experiences with stuff from the local pawn shops that I can't bring myself to spend another single dime of my meager funds on another pretty piece of junk that turns out to have some hidden defect after I get it home and have a chance to really put it through it's paces. I know, caveat emptor and no refunds, but you can usually only give a cursory inspection on premises. All the smiles and "hello valued customer" fade pretty quick when you try to return to those places (around here anyway). YMMV and pardon my rant.
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