Carbon Fiber?

[Billy Packard]

I've played a few CF guitars and I was definitely under-whelmed but check this violin out.
Could it be some recording tricks? It sounds fabulous.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGoPo7x1-eM

[MikeEdgerton]

The Mix carbon fiber mandolins sounded pretty good. I have a friend that plays the fiddle that showed up with a carbon fiber fiddle a few weeks ago and it sounded great.

[Roger Moss]

I've heard a carbon fiber cello, and it was incredibly full and deep.

[Paul Kotapish]

I nearly bought one of those Mix CF F-styles. I thought it sounded really good, and would be perfect for outdoor gigs in extreme weather, camping when you want more than a beater, touring when there were a lot of flights involved, etc. I wish someone would figure out how to get those into production effeciently so that they could sell at a more competitive price-point.

[Billy Packard]

That's interesting...

It seems violins, cello's and mandolins work out ok with CF. Has anyone played a CF guitar they thought was really nice?

[CES]

I have an aquintance with a CA guitar that actually sounds really good, but he’s a pretty solid player. I’ve only played one at Gruhn’s a few years ago and was underwhelmed as well.

[Louise NM]

Luis and Clark has been making CF bowed string instruments for years, and they count Yo-Yo Ma among their customers. Ma has played his publicly more than once, particularly when required to play outdoors in hot or cold weather. He had it at Obama's first inauguration, when the temperature was well below freezing.

Plenty of traditionalists gasp and clutch their pearls at the very idea. On the other hand, why take an irreplaceable, 300-year-old, multimillion dollar instrument out in freezing weather, or on a day when it's hot and humid enough to pop the seams?

[Dacraw54]

I had a Mix CF F4 that was a real beauty. I have a MM80 CF Adamas coming next week - there were a limited run of 30 a few years ago. Should be interesting...

[Ivan Kelsall]

The CA ( Composite Acoustics) CF guitar that Tim Stafford (Blue Highway) plays is terrific (IMHO). Link :- http://www.compositeacoustics.com/
Ivan

[mandroid]

Have had a Mix A5 for years, Peter fitted a Pickup in it which combines to sound very nice ..

its on its refretted fingerboard leveled 2nd set..

[Perry]

I have an early Mix A5 (# 5?) outfitted with a Schertler and Waverly's. Sounds very good unplugged and great plugged in.

Mine has the original thick neck. A fine instrument that I don't see myself ever selling and I have sold quite a few of my other mandolins.

Here's an old clip I did many moons ago recorded with an internal macbook mic

[mandroid]

Differenty from working directly in wood,

I read Peter learned about the mold making .. with the pattern not compensating predictably
so neck came out thicker from the A ,

and adjusted the F molds to compensate a % smaller, so it was slimmer..

[Billy Packard]

Ivan, that's a cool recording indeed. I'm not a BG guy in general but those guys are slick. I agree the guitar sounds really good, I wonder if sounds that good in hand...

Perry, that mandolin does sound good. It seems to have a nice balance.

The CF instruments are rare, aren't they? I only saw an occasional CF guitar at Sylvan in Santa Cruz. The violin in my original post is amazing and if Yo-Yo likes 'em that's got to be good!

[Ivan Kelsall]

Hi Billy - I can't imagine a guitar player of the class of Tim Stafford playing any instrument that didn't please him in any way at all,both amplified via a mic.,or acoustically. I'd expect the 'tone' to be a tad different from a conventional wooden guitar,but it must be ''close enough'' & yes,''Blue Highway'' are a terrific band - they've been my favourite band for a few years now & i pick along to a lot of their songs as practice,
Ivan
Here's another one of my favourites - ''The Game''

[Billy Packard]

Thanks Ivan, I'll keep an ear out for this band.

BTW Louise and all, I was checking out the Luis and Clark's very cool web site and noticed Yo-Yo is listed as OWNER of the company! That's some kind of endorsement!!

[mandroid]

As I understand Clear Carbon in Rhode Island was the Go To for both, Mix in VT, And Luis And Clark, in MA..

both get the basic structural work done , in the Carbon (Does lots of custom work , for for Yachts) specialist,
and take over the finishing work in their individual shops..



...

[Jim Nollman]

I remember, about 6 years ago, meeting a guy in Bellingham WA who had 3 prized mandolins to sell, a Weber F5, a Gibson Sam Bush, and a Mix carbon fiber F5. The Mix had the best sound to my ears. I didn't buy it.

[TonyP]

I got to play a Mix A5 in Ken Cartwrights shop years ago and was at first underwhelmed by the sound. But not the feel. The neck and action were what I was used to so I kept playing and by the end of about 15-20 min of playing it at regular volume I was impressed. Of course this all goes back to the old controversy of whether an instrument warms up or not. But I felt comfortable off in my own corner but Ken could hear perfectly even though he went about his business. Ken asked me what I thought and I mentioned I went from underwhelmed to impressed with the volume and tone by the end. At first it sounded tight to me but by the end I could not tell a difference between a good wood mandolin. Ken commented he could hear a difference too and was curious whether I noticed too. We both came away with the same impression from player and listener viewpoint.

I'm also of a split viewpoint from the perspective of consumer and manufacturer. There are many good wood mandolins for cheaper than CF and working with wood has its hazards but are less compared to working with CF. Wood dust is not good for the lungs either but CF is like breathing asbestos, same with fiberglass. They go in and never come out. This just means it adds $$$ and complications to manufacture. It's not a hazard to the user because its encased in the resin and unless you go grinding on it(same with fiberglass) there is no problem. But the consumer only knows the price and seldom understands the process and why it costs more. There is just as much if not more skill and effort to laying up CF for tone production as there is to carving wood. Once you know the process frankly I'm amazed they can make them so cheap.

[Jim Garber]

I find Blackbird Guitar's eKoa material more interesting. I played one of the early eKoa ukuleles, the Clara in a store in NY a few years ago and it was amazing in tone and looks. I haven't played an eKoa guitar but they sounds good in the videos.

[Billy Packard]

I wonder if in a hundred years the CF instruments will be the norm with all the "latest advancements!!" etc. following each NAMM show while the old fashioned wooden instruments of yesterday-year will be considered quaint museum pieces, like a buggy a horse would pull...

That CF violin at the top of this thread sounded real, [I]really[I] good and this tech is at the very beginning of its development.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Picking up on Tony's point - in working with wood / CF or any material that creates dust particles,you need a dust extraction plant for safety. The other danger in CF ( or Glass cloth) lay-up, is with the resin vapour & there,breathing masks are a real requirement.

Working with CF cloth you also need gloves.The tiny particles that come off CF or Glasscloth when it's being tailored to a mold, get under your fingernails & can cause pretty severe dermatitis as well. All told neither CF cloth or G cloth are nice to work with - neither are they a ''cheap alternative'' to wood. They're costly as raw materials (especially CF), require expensive tooling, & items are very labour intensive & costly to produce,
Ivan

[Jim Garber]

More info on Blackbird’s use of eKoa. I don’t know about how toxic working with that composite is.

Ever since launching Clara, a concert ukulele made of our own Ekoa® fiber, folks wanted to understand it and how it compares with carbon fiber. The latter having been our tone material of choice for the previous 8 eight years. To understand the differences, it helps exploring the greater context of composites manufacturing in general as well as Blackbird composite process specifically. We use carbon fiber bracing, plates as well as different thicknesses and fabric types to achieve a desired mechanical objective: optimal stiffness-to-weight ratio. Having more options is intrinsically good, so adding to the mix now offers lower density, a new mechanical dimension to better optimize for a 'vintage' tone. Ekoa brings that warmer, 'woodie' sound through out including soundboard, bracing and bridge plate. To achieve a wonderful and still warm sound to the carbon fiber instruments, Blackbird has been using similarly low density Aramid (commonly known by tradename Kevlar) since the early days for vibration damping which 'warms-up' the sound. So the two materials can be used to achieve a specific sound and tailor the instrument down to the last tonal detail and get us the tone we're seeking and in the case of Ekoa, it's a vintage sound.

Clara ukulele and now our El Capitan composite guitar have all the mojo hithertofore only found in vintage instruments. It's actually made from Ekoa-brand high-performance, eco-friendly linen fiber composite for all the stability of carbon fiber but the look, feel and sound of wood. With the El Capitan guitar, musicians get what was previously unobtainable — the experience of a premium, vintage old-growth wood instrument in a lightweight, durable and sustainable package. The naturally vibration dampening Ekoa is lower density than old growth spruce but stiffer and in two directions rather than only one.

[Louise NM]

Maple and spruce are still plentiful, but the same can't be said about other woods used to make musical instruments. Clear-cutting of tropical forests, climate change, and overuse are existential threats to various woods. Anyone who can develop synthetic materials to replace these woods is a hero.

The beauty of natural woods can't be beat, but we may not have any choice before long.

[TonyP]

After playing the MixA5 and reading about how many classical players are using them I think the OP might right. It isn't just about replacement it's about evolution. And it's obviously in its infancy. Just like L. Loar was ahead of his time I think CF not only makes sense it truly gets back to the heart of what an instrument is supposed to be, a tool for making music. Not a fancy "investment" that is more about display than to actually play. But like when Loar tried to revive the mandolin craze with the F5 the masses were not ready for something visionary.

About the time I played the Mix Katrina happened and I remember hearing about a CF cello that was left behind and under water for days or a week? It was rinsed off, cleaned up, probably a new bridge and strings and off it went, good as new. Making music, not irreparably damaged. And when it's handed down if moderately taken care of, who knows how long it will last?

I love the look of wood as much as anybody but it's like folks who pine for "the good old days" and with it the supposed good old ways. More than once when we've had to play in 100f+ heat and the whole band tuning goes wonky or when the sun goes down and the humidity made all our wood instruments go crazy did I wish for something better.

[mandroid]

I got mine Used, but I think if I were ordering one, new, I'd ask it be blacktop,

the CF fiber fabric not seen from the front just the back/sides ..