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Thread: Ring vs Pinky, again?

  1. #1

    Default Ring vs Pinky, again?

    Hello, Folks. I am just about a year in to my "fifths-tuned" adventure, and ready for my second class at Catskills Irish Arts Week. Seems (despite last summer's teacher's remonstrations) I have played all year with wrong fingering. Basically, I finger the tenor banjo and the mandolin banjo (a cool old Gibson Trapdoor, set up with 4 nylon strings, to make what Mike Keyes and others describe as "Melody Banjo) the same, so fret 4 gets ring finger, and not middle finger. I read that this slothful behavior will cost me dearly in my long-term mando-style stylings, and wonder if this is so, and why? My main goal is rapid tunes, and virtually not at all chords or bluegrass backing, since I never could do chords on anything, and am an old rookie trying for clarity and speed on single-note melodies.

    I can't see why I need to change, but welcome suggestions. Old threads here from 15 years ago chastised an instructor who suggested to the student that what I do was OK, and it makes me worry a bit....

    Any feedback will be much appreciated!

    Thanks, and regards,

    David

  2. #2
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ring vs Pinky, again?

    David, if you make good music, nobody has a right to tell how you have to do things. There is no law against fingering a musical instrument in any manner you choose. So there are two things to understand here: First, you are allowed to do what works for you. Second, there are well-developed norms that really should be studied and applied by musicians, in my opinion. And there is some variance among the "norms".

    There is a school of thought that I subscribe to. Again, it's not a "law" - just a general rule. For a mandolin, each finger is "responsible" for two frets. As a student, I'd want to begin with that general goal, because it will offer maximum reach in position.

    That's not the only school of thought when it comes to "norms", but it's the one I subscribe to. It's not meant as a law or iron-clad rule, because the only real rule is make things work for yourself and make good music. But training to think that way when possible, and training to make the stretches associated with that will help you in the long run.

    As far as whether your method of playing will "cost you dearly" in the long-term, I doubt it will cost you much, if you are one of those who is willing to pay the price to improve for the rest of your life. The reason is that when you run into technical difficulty, you will train yourself to overcome it. Learning best practices from the outset is great, but more important IMO is the lifelong commitment to do whatever it takes to improve. This will enable you and energize you to change habits as necessary on your journey.

    I can generally cover frets 1 -4 with the index & middle fingers, unless 3 notes are involved in that span of frets, like a chromatic run, and even then I tend to use slides rather than fingering every single note.

    Hope some of this helps.
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    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ring vs Pinky, again?

    +1 to what Mark Gunter said. There are no rules; just guidelines. Folks like Adam Steffey seldom use their pinky, yet manage to play some incredible music. But the majority of the best players seem to use the pinky on frets 7 and 8, and sometimes even on fret 6 (in fast chromatics, for example). It also comes down to how large your hands are, in terms of what frets you can cover. I have small hands, and I could not function without my pinky! Also, the pinky becomes increasingly important for many movable, closed patterns that you can use up the neck (e.g., FFcP and similar).

    Do whatever works. And be sure to at least explore the various possibilities along the way, that is, whatever MIGHT work... You may find, with practice, that the pinky is more useful than you'd originally thought.

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    Default Re: Ring vs Pinky, again?

    Try playing guitar (tuned in 4ths) for decades where the norm is one finger/one fret then see how hard one finger/two frets is to learn! As mentioned, try different ways and practice what works best for you and your style.

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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ring vs Pinky, again?

    There's no law against it, if what you're doing is working. Is it actually working though? You're aiming for clarity and speed, which is a good thing for Irish music because traditional dance tempos can get up there.

    The traditional 2-frets-per-finger mandolin technique is more efficient for playing at fast tempos, especially when there is a B note on the E string in a fiddle tune. You don't have to slide your hand back and forth -- you just whip out that pinky and hit the B note. Fiddlers do that, and we "should" do it on mandolin too, for speed and efficiency. Unless there is some mitigating factor like arthritis or other hand damage that prevents it.

    So here's the bottom line: Can can you play a tune like "Silver Spear" with some high B note action at a typical Irish dance tempo? Something like 110-112 bpm counted 2/2?

    Is the attack on that B note at that tempo just as strong as the other notes, and can you shift your hand fast enough to hit it without breaking rhythm?

    If you can, then I suppose there is no reason to change, even if you're using an unconventional fingering. You'll just be working harder than someone using conventional fingering to get there.

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    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ring vs Pinky, again?

    MC readers may be interested to know that Nadja Salerno-Sonneberg is a world-class violinist, trained at the Julliard School of Music. Back in 1994, she nearly chopped off the tip of her pinky in a cooking accident, while chopping some onions for dinner, and it had to be surgically re-attached. It took over 6 months to heal. Meanwhile, she figured out how to re-finger difficult classical violin pieces for just three fingers of her left hand, and continued to perform these at a world-class level as a soloist in concerts. This feat was both heroic and technically near-impossible -- but she managed it, somehow. I am in awe.

    Granted, a violin has a shorter scale (~13") than a mandolin (~14"), but still...

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    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ring vs Pinky, again?

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post
    MC readers may be interested to know that Nadja Salerno-Sonneberg is a world-class violinist, trained at the Julliard School of Music. Back in 1994, she nearly chopped off the tip of her pinky in a cooking accident, while chopping some onions for dinner, and it had to be surgically re-attached. It took over 6 months to heal. Meanwhile, she figured out how to re-finger difficult classical violin pieces for just three fingers of her left hand, and continued to perform these at a world-class level as a soloist in concerts. This feat was both heroic and technically near-impossible -- but she managed it, somehow. I am in awe.

    Granted, a violin has a shorter scale (~13") than a mandolin (~14"), but still...
    And of course there was Django....

  11. #8

    Default Re: Ring vs Pinky, again?

    Thanks to all! I am amazed by the quick and thoughtful replies, and judging by three of them, a bit embarrassed that I didn't really spell out my question very clearly. So, here's a bit more: I don't "ignore" the pinky; rather I skip the middle finger most of the time. In effect, each string would get a "do, re, mi, fa" with "open, index, ring, pinky" playing. So, I guess I play one finger per fret, except the first fret (which I don't use much) would also be index finger, and I do use the middle finger on the high string a lot. I guess that all means I have to use my pinky even more than "standard" since I switch to it almost always by fret 5. Does this make any sense?

    Thanks again, and I apologize for my rather clumsy descriptions.

    Regards,

    David

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ring vs Pinky, again?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Colpitts View Post
    a cool old Gibson Trapdoor, set up with 4 nylon strings
    Not to derail this thread, but what gauge nylon strings do you use on your trapdoor? I have a TB-Jr which has a pretty short scale tuned to GDAE but would love to try some nylon strings.
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  13. #10

    Default Re: Ring vs Pinky, again?

    Jim, I don't know about derailing....perhaps I should pm you, but basically, I use the Aquila Red mandolin strings, save the E, which is an Aquila E from the "Soprano Uke fifths" set I use on three other 14" scale length instruments. Caution installing (they are fragile) but, they've played great for a year now. You could also just get the Soprano Uke fifths set. OTOH, if the TBJr is in the 16 or so inch scale, I'd use a set of high tension classical guitar strings, and there's a lot of info on this site, and Banjo Hangout.

    Hope it works!

    David

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    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ring vs Pinky, again?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Colpitts View Post
    Thanks to all! I am amazed by the quick and thoughtful replies, and judging by three of them, a bit embarrassed that I didn't really spell out my question very clearly. So, here's a bit more: I don't "ignore" the pinky; rather I skip the middle finger most of the time. In effect, each string would get a "do, re, mi, fa" with "open, index, ring, pinky" playing. So, I guess I play one finger per fret, except the first fret (which I don't use much) would also be index finger, and I do use the middle finger on the high string a lot. I guess that all means I have to use my pinky even more than "standard" since I switch to it almost always by fret 5. Does this make any sense?

    Thanks again, and I apologize for my rather clumsy descriptions.

    Regards,

    David
    OK. What you're doing is pretty idiosyncratic, and strikes me as awkward -- not to mention inefficient. Frankly, you seem bound to run into trouble at some point. But evidently, it's been working for you up until now. No telling how far you can take it before you hit a wall. Maybe soon. Maybe never. It all depends on what tunes you play, how fast you play, and how well you play.

    The earlier advice still stands. There are no rules; just guidelines. Feel free to do whatever works best for you. That said, you should be guided and inspired by what is already known to work for most other folks. So don't be afraid to put in the work to learn the "traditional" way of doing things -- it is traditional for a reason! Furthermore, it might well turn out to be a better fingering technique for you in the long run.

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    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ring vs Pinky, again?

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post
    That said, you should be guided and inspired by what is already known to work for most other folks. So don't be afraid to put in the work to learn the "traditional" way of doing things -- it is traditional for a reason! Furthermore, it might well turn out to be a better fingering technique for you in the long run.
    Thanks for posting that.

    There is a reason for the time-honored traditional fingerings on instruments with strings - be it violin, cello, mandolin, guitar, etc. - these systems work.

    It's also called not having to re-invent the wheel.

    Yes you can point out professionals making wonderful music using non-traditional fingerings.

    For most of us, the "correct" method indeed is correct.

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    Default Re: Ring vs Pinky, again?

    Ditto what everyone said.

    I'll just add, in thinking (or at some point preferably not thinking) about finger positioning: think ahead. Are the patterns heading up the neck? Is there a rest after the note so you can re-position? Can you position to use your ring finger rather than 4th finger, for more power? etc.

    Those "rules" are just statistics about how things may usually lay out, but the fun can often be playing outside the box.

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    Default Re: Ring vs Pinky, again?

    There is no law, there is no requirement.

    There is however a standard.

    You can go against the standard any time you want. Of course. More often than not what you learn is why its a standard.

    Going off standard for particular artistic choices may sometimes be a good idea. Playing off standard because the standard is harder, eh... not so much.
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  22. #15

    Default Re: Ring vs Pinky, again?

    I just got a tenor guitar after playing mandolin for a while. With mandolin, I can play most closed position scales or chords with my ring finger, mostly abiding by the 1 finger per 2 fret rule. With the tenor guitar, however, I cannot play a closed position scale in first position and many of the chords aren't possible without the use of my pinky.

    I don't quite follow what fingering you are using but it does seem inefficient to me, particularly for mandolin and playing single lines. How do you play closed position scales on both instruments?

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    Default Re: Ring vs Pinky, again?

    I wonder if Monroe, Duffy, Rector, Bugsby, or any of my "heroes" on mandolin worried about which finger to use on which fret. I know when I was starting 50+ years ago no one that helped me get started worried about it, and to this day I don't. I use what ever finger is available at the time and I play as fast as I want to or as fast as anyone should. We are covering a ftetboard of a few inches, how long does it take to move your hand a couple inches. If what you are doing is not awkward to you don't worry about what some one else says is awkward, what he's doing might be hard for you and vice versa.what you are talking about won't keep you from playing as fast as you want. As I've said before the problem we have with speed is mental. Unless you have a disability or condition you hand and fingers will play faster than you can think however you note the strings.

  24. #17

    Default Re: Ring vs Pinky, again?

    Thanks again, Folks, for the latest round. I will make it my plan to find out more about the "standard" one finger/2 frets, and give it a try. However, I won't stress over it. I am still really curious about what circumstances that fingering alleviates, since I'd be replacing the ring finger with the middle when that ring is already right where I need it, rather than getting it out of the way to stretch further with the middle. I must be missing something, I know, 'cause I agree there are reasons methods become standard.

    David

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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ring vs Pinky, again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    I wonder if Monroe, Duffy, Rector, Bugsby, or any of my "heroes" on mandolin worried about which finger to use on which fret.
    Those guys weren't playing Irish trad, which appears to be the OP's main focus. These "fiddle tunes" in the usual keys are meant to be played in first position, without shifting the hand, which allows speed and use of open strings for doublestops and hammer-pull ornaments. It ain't Bluegrass, where you get to play in closed positions up the neck.


    In first position, you have the longest stretch between frets, but to compensate, you can hit all the notes up to that high B on the E string without moving your hand, taking advantage of the open strings. Keeping your hand in place allows for efficiency and speed, compared to anything that moves your hand out of position.

    So there actually is a recommended way to finger this. The Trad Police won't show up at anyone's door if they don't use recommended fingering. It's just that it causes more work than necessary to reach the same clarity, speed, and smoothness of the standard one-finger-2-fret approach.

    I keep going back to a clear "acid test" for this: Play the B section of the Silver Spear reel in the key of D, at 110-112 bpm (counted as 2 beats to the measure). If you can nail that smoothly with something other than traditional 2-fret mandolin fingering, then you don't have anything to worry about. Most people don't use non-standard fingerings on mandolin to reach those tempos in first position, and there's a reason for that.

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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ring vs Pinky, again?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Colpitts View Post
    Thanks again, Folks, for the latest round. I will make it my plan to find out more about the "standard" one finger/2 frets, and give it a try. However, I won't stress over it. I am still really curious about what circumstances that fingering alleviates, since I'd be replacing the ring finger with the middle when that ring is already right where I need it, rather than getting it out of the way to stretch further with the middle. I must be missing something, I know, 'cause I agree there are reasons methods become standard.
    The main reason is efficiency and speed, but for the sake of argument, let's assume that you can use your current fingering and reach full Irish dance tempos. So it's not holding you back, speed-wise.

    There is still one reason you might prefer standard fingering that's specific to Irish/Scottish trad and "fiddle tunes" in general, including OldTime and anything else where they show up. A whole heck of a lot of the Irish repertoire was originally composed on fiddle, and by players who were most likely using standard fiddle fingering (equivalent to 2-fingers-per-fret on mandolin).

    If you play enough of this stuff, you'll start to recognize repeating patterns and quirks in the fingering that are related to how the notes lay out in first position on fiddle. There are plenty of exceptions, like intentionally difficult and weird tunes. A lot of the Paddy Fahey stuff, for example. And you'll recognize tunes that probably weren't composed on fiddle, but on pipes, whistle, flute, concertina etc., because the fingering feels "illogical" on the mandolin, even if the tunes still sound great when you finally learn them.

    If you use non-standard fingering, you may find it more difficult to learn these fiddle-composed tunes, because there are no shortcuts in how the notes fall under your fingers. You may not have as many "Ah ha!" moments in suddenly understanding the structure of a tune, just from the way it sits on the fretboard. This won't apply to all those scads of pipe tunes and others written on other instruments, but so many were written on fiddle that I think it really helps to be moving your fingers the same way the original composers did.

    It isn't essential to follow the composer's fingering, because obviously players of other instruments like pipes, flutes, and concertina can learn a tune written by a fiddler. They just have a similar problem in reverse, where the note layout may not feel as logical. I have this problem when I transfer fiddle tunes I know on mandolin to my Irish flute playing. Sometimes it's okay, sometimes it's really a PITA to hit the fingering because it isn't "flute-centric." But if you can use a shortcut to learning, like using the same fingering the composer did, then why not take it?

    So that long-winded post is one reason you may want to explore standard fingering, at least for Irish music.

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  29. #20

    Default Re: Ring vs Pinky, again?

    Wow, foldedpath. What a marvelously clear and complete response to my rather choppy posts. I will try your experiment (although Silver Spear is only an occasional tune at my local session, and not one I know yet at any speed) but I'll work on it now and see if the speed you suggest is within reasonable grasp. Notwithstanding, I really appreciate the explanation you provide regarding the "patterns and quirks" of fiddle tunes. Lights came on, and I will try standard fingering with those lights in mind. Thank you much!

    Regards,

    David

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    Default Re: Ring vs Pinky, again?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Colpitts View Post
    I am still really curious about what circumstances that fingering alleviates, since I'd be replacing the ring finger with the middle when that ring is already right where I need it, rather than getting it out of the way to stretch further with the middle. I must be missing something, I know, 'cause I agree there are reasons methods become standard.
    I played that way for a while. Too long. It felt easier at the time. It eventually becomes a bad habit that needs breaking. I found myself stumbling over phrases where I did that as I begin to play faster. Sometimes the only way to appreciate why you should do something is to struggle with it down the road.

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    Registered User Randi Gormley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ring vs Pinky, again?

    Certainly non-standard fingering patterns can work. you can get used to anything and it'll feel "right," so arguing against what you prefer to do more often than not falls into philosophy -- or ego -- than hard and fast facts. I don't know, for instance, whether down the line you'll develop repetitive strain injuries by your method -- or develop them faster or have more intense problems -- because I can't foresee the future. I do know that sharing tips, hints, shortcuts and technique will be harder because you'll have to figure all that out on your own since what people with standard technique do won't exactly work. (Of course, no one can crib off you either if they're trying to figure out a tune you're playing.) It's kind of the same argument you get into with kids or students of any kind -- why do I have to do it this way? And arguing long-term goals is always chancy because a lot of the subtleties aren't something that you can explain, they arise spontaneously from doing the initial work correctly. You don't know what you don't know, as it were, so you won't know what you're limiting yourself from until you reach that plateau.

    I will add that if a teacher or someone else pointed out your parallel technique a year ago when you were just beginning your journey and a year later you haven't changed a jot -- and are asking others to justify what you've already been told -- that says you've pretty much made up your mind not to change what you do. And that's fine if that's what you want. Embrace your rebellion. The only real reason to change how you finger your instrument is because you want to. Any other reason -- anybody else's reason -- simply won't convince you.
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    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ring vs Pinky, again?

    There’s another reason for a person to change - in order to solve a technical problem they have. And another good reason would be to attempt to master numerous techniques. At any rate, while it is wonderful to learn to do everything “correctly” right from the start according to some particular school of thought, not many do. Most of us will develop some bad habit or another along the way, and folk who spend a lifetime improving will work on correcting bad habits when those habits begin to affect musicality. Even if it were true that the OP had his mind already made, there’s nothing to prevent him from changing his mind for the sake of improvement at any time he feels the necessity.
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    Default Re: Ring vs Pinky, again?

    David - As a self taught banjo & mandolin player,i'm 100% sure that much of my left & right hand 'playing' is pretty unorthodox. Back when i began playing banjo in 1963,there were NO instruction books,it was play by ear or nothing. It was many years later,when i saw the first banjo tutor books that 'explained' banjo right hand 'rolls', that i ever knew that there were such things. 'Rolls' meant nothing to me. I played the right notes at the right time & in the right place in my own way - does it really need any more than that ?.

    The bottom line - use 'whatever' finger is easier for you,but,i would say,become adept at using both - just in case. I've found myself ''odd fingering'' a tune many times, & it's always handy to be able to use another finger when required,even if it isn't the one that you normally use = be flexible !!,
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  38. #25
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    Default Re: Ring vs Pinky, again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    I wonder if Monroe, Duffy, Rector, Bugsby, or any of my "heroes" on mandolin worried about which finger to use on which fret. .
    I'm pretty sure my heroes - Apollon, dePace, Burns, all those Italians, et al did give some thought to fingering. Some even wrote method books explaining these fingerings.

    And don't be surprised if your heroes did more thinking about fingerings than is commonly thought, too.

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