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Thread: Old Gibson with Cedar Top

  1. #1

    Default Old Gibson with Cedar Top

    I am repairing a circa 1905 Gibson A mandolin. The top was badly cracked, and so were the sides. It has been repaired before, so nothing lost by removing the back and getting the sides fixed.

    This has been a fascinating look at the history of Gibson, and how the early instruments were made. Lots of interesting details. But one has me intrigued.

    I need to strengthen the top, because of numerous cracks. But it is difficult in this area, under the end of the fret board. So while sanding it smooth today, I noticed an unusual aroma. After a while, it was obvious: this instrument has a cedar top.

    I had no idea early Gibsons were made with those, has anyone else ever run into this?

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: Old Gibson with Cedar Top

    Interesting. The 2 or 3 that I've taken apart were spruce, but they were 'teens mandolins. One of them had laminated sides.

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    Default Re: Old Gibson with Cedar Top

    Cedar top. an assumption made on one instrument ?

  5. #4

    Default Re: Old Gibson with Cedar Top

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Hildreth View Post
    Cedar top. an assumption made on one instrument ?
    That's why I'm asking. Was sanding down some rough edges to glue on a patch, and the smell of the dust is unmistakable.

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    Default Re: Old Gibson with Cedar Top

    There's no telling what might have been used on those earliest 'post-Orville' Gibsons.

    I had an A model from that same era come in for a re-fret, and it had a so-called "dyed pearwood" fingerboard, which started to fall apart as I was working on it. I managed to save the board, but it won't stand another re-fret. I later found out that the "dyed pearwood" boards are very common on banjos of the same age, and that they are notorious for decomposing and turning to splinters and powder.

    Bob Smakula's banjo shop in West Virginia makes a steady income by extracting the inlays from these rotten boards and installing them into new ebony boards, making the banjos good for another 100 years. Not so easy to do with those thin, beautifully engraved inlays. They do good work . . .

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  8. #6

    Default Re: Old Gibson with Cedar Top

    According to the "Gibson Story" by Julius Bellson, Orville was still hand making in 1902 and still employed until circa 1904. It says he used Walnut, Cedar & Spruce on his Instruments which he often got from old furniture.

    Here's a link to the book if you haven't got it. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1PL...5g3K2XL0JM4vgD

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    Default Re: Old Gibson with Cedar Top

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Hildreth View Post
    Cedar top. an assumption made on one instrument ?
    I don't understand your point here -- if that instrument has a cedar top, in his hands, then it is no longer an assumption?
    Bernie
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  12. #8

    Default Re: Old Gibson with Cedar Top

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    I don't understand your point here -- if that instrument has a cedar top, in his hands, then it is no longer an assumption?
    Agreed, I dont believe that the original poster was asserting that they all had cedar tops...
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  14. #9

    Default Re: Old Gibson with Cedar Top

    Thanks for the replies! Actually I thought all the early ones were spruce, and looking on Google didn't give me anything about cedar. That's why I was asking about others experiences, as this one definitely is. So I was curious about how many might be, or if this one was more of a specialty. It is fancy, has just about every decoration and inlay that I've seen on one.

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  16. #10

    Default Re: Old Gibson with Cedar Top

    The Harp Guitar on page 5 of the book is also 1905. I think perhaps nothing was standardised until around 1910. I have a 1910 A4 which is virtually identical to modern A4's

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    Default Re: Old Gibson with Cedar Top

    OK. I am curious, what kind of cedar ?

  19. #12

    Default Re: Old Gibson with Cedar Top

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Hildreth View Post
    OK. I am curious, what kind of cedar ?
    Appears to be regular Western Red, not the aromatic. I'll post some pics here in a bit.

  20. #13

    Default Re: Old Gibson with Cedar Top

    Inside the top, next to another piece of cedar
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The top, showing some of the cracks
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    The back, with the label
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Default Re: Old Gibson with Cedar Top

    Quote Originally Posted by Davey View Post
    The Harp Guitar on page 5 of the book is also 1905. I think perhaps nothing was standardised until around 1910. I have a 1910 A4 which is virtually identical to modern A4's
    Good point and probably true. In 1972 I purchased a 1906 K-1 mandocello (ser.# 8220) from Paul Miller of Downers Grove, IL -- think I paid a whopping $100 for it and then sold it in 2004 for about $1700. But my main point that instrument seems to have had a Western cedar top also and though I never did any work on it so I was just going from appearance.
    Bernie
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    Default Re: Old Gibson with Cedar Top

    100 year old red spruce with wide grain will take on an oxidized color that is almost indistinguishable from western red cedar. I see it in vintage instruments all of the time. I have some raw spruce from 1904 that I would swear was western red cedar if I didn't have a verified direct link to the person who cut it as a tree and then the sequence of old geezer luthiers who held on to it for all of this time.

    Really...who cares??? What's it sound like? That's what matters....

  24. #16
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    Default Re: Old Gibson with Cedar Top

    The back wood on this 1905 A model holds a strong resemblance to what is often referred to as
    "Sycamore" or "North American Sycamore" ?...
    It looks very similar to what is shown in this other photo of a Shutt "Viol" back.
    Attachment 170698
    A previous thread suggested that Red Spruce can also produce a similar "beeswing" type grain...i have not found examples to confirm that yet.
    Any additional info about Gibson's using Sycamore ...
    or Sycamore as a tonewood in general would be appreciated.

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    Default Re: Old Gibson with Cedar Top

    Quote Originally Posted by mandotool View Post
    The back wood on this 1905 A model holds a strong resemblance to what is often referred to as
    "Sycamore" or "North American Sycamore" ?...
    It looks very similar to what is shown in this other photo of a Shutt "Viol" back.
    Attachment 170698
    A previous thread suggested that Red Spruce can also produce a similar "beeswing" type grain...i have not found examples to confirm that yet.
    Any additional info about Gibson's using Sycamore ...
    or Sycamore as a tonewood in general would be appreciated.
    I don't recall ever seen a Gibson product made of American Sycamore (i.e., Platanus occidentalis) which is a native North American species typically found in riparian areas (there are two very closely related species in the western states both Platanus genus -- e.g., California Sycamore) that are very similar in appearance.

    None of these NA sycamores are maples of course but they are useful as tone wood and have been used to make mandolin backs and sides. The Morgan Monroe company once offered an F-style mandolin with American Sycamore back and sides call the MS-2 I think and then a true maple backed instrument called the MS-3.

    So while I have never seen a Gibson with American Sycamore it is also true that over its long lifetime of making instruments Gibson made at least one of almost anything so it would not surprise me in the least to see a Gibson instrument with American Sycamore turn up.

    The "confusion" comes from the fact that there is a Europe maple species Acer pseudoplatanus, which is a true maple but is sometimes called "sycamore" or Sycamore Maple in the United Kingdom. That wood is often available and used by American luthiers as tone wood.

    So "Sycamore" is not always what it might seem to be.
    Bernie
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    Registered User mandotool's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old Gibson with Cedar Top

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Thomas Quinn

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    Default Re: Old Gibson with Cedar Top

    Here's the photo that was supposed to accompany the earlier post....
    Gibson ( Sycamore? back ) on the left...Shutt ( Sycamore back ) on the right...yes?
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Default Re: Old Gibson with Cedar Top

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    I don't recall ever seen a Gibson product made of American Sycamore (i.e., Platanus occidentalis) which is a native North American species typically found in riparian areas (there are two very closely related species in the western states both Platanus genus -- e.g., California Sycamore) that are very similar in appearance.

    None of these NA sycamores are maples of course but they are useful as tone wood and have been used to make mandolin backs and sides. The Morgan Monroe company once offered an F-style mandolin with American Sycamore back and sides call the MS-2 I think and then a true maple backed instrument called the MS-3.

    So while I have never seen a Gibson with American Sycamore it is also true that over its long lifetime of making instruments Gibson made at least one of almost anything so it would not surprise me in the least to see a Gibson instrument with American Sycamore turn up.

    The "confusion" comes from the fact that there is a Europe maple species Acer pseudoplatanus, which is a true maple but is sometimes called "sycamore" or Sycamore Maple in the United Kingdom. That wood is often available and used by American luthiers as tone wood.

    So "Sycamore" is not always what it might seem to be.
    The back wood looks like sycamore to me, too. I have some recently planed boards in my garage that look like twins to that piece of wood. I also have some western redcedar and have considered making a cedar/sycamore instrument before. So, how does the combination sound . . . ?

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    Default Re: Old Gibson with Cedar Top

    Quote Originally Posted by mandotool View Post
    Here's the photo that was supposed to accompany the earlier post....
    Gibson ( Sycamore? back ) on the left...Shutt ( Sycamore back ) on the right...yes?
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I have to agree you make a strong case -- very similar in appearance.

    Someone asked about a sycamore/red cedar combinatiion. I don't see why not! Both woods have been successfully used as tone woods. Go for it.

    I carved a couple of mandolin bridges out of American Sycamoe once that they seemed to work very well.
    Bernie
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  30. #22
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    Default Re: Old Gibson with Cedar Top

    Gibson catalogs from the early 20th century are not necessarily accurate about the woods used in their instruments. They specify spruce, maple, and ebony.

    However, we know that they also used birch, walnut, rosewood, and an unknown wood sometimes referred to by other manufacturers as "dyed pearwood." Later, poplar was employed for neck blocks, and one guitar model was catalogued with a "red bean" fingerboard. I have seen bridge plates that look like they were made from pallets.

    The use of just about any conifer stiff enough for instrument making would not surprise me one bit. Neither would I be surprised by the use of sycamore.

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  32. #23

    Default Re: Old Gibson with Cedar Top

    Very interesting ideas here about the back. Seems I read one time that these were made with backs and sides from beech. So, I took some scraps of beech flooring that were given to me, and sliced them up to make new sides to reinforce the cracked areas. Grain-wise, they appear very similar to what I have on the instrument. Plus, I also learned this stuff bends real easy, which would have made it a good choice to build with.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    As for why it matters about the top wood, I am trying to understand why this instrument failed. Because it failed multiple times, and has been repaired at least once. So why is it so unstable? It appears the construction methods and design both came out on the wrong side of the tolerance stack up on this particular instrument. Shape of the top under the fret board causing different loading, uneven carving on the underside, wider grain with cracks originating in sap wood on the thinner side, sides pieces that are tapered in thickness and ended up too thin in places, quite a list of things. Mostly just theories, but if spruce is stronger than cedar for the same thickness, it might help explain the failure modes.

    As for how it sounds, don't know yet, it was busted when I got it. My main goal is to make it playable again.

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  34. #24

    Default Re: Old Gibson with Cedar Top

    Can you take measurements of the top? How thick is it in the center and recurve? Or better yet a map of graduations.

  35. #25
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    Default Re: Old Gibson with Cedar Top

    Most Gibsons built before the mid to late 1920's had birch [not beech] back and sides, except for F-4 and F-5 models. I suppose beech could have been used on an early model, but I have not heard of it before.

    It looks to me like the top damage was most likely caused by external pressure. It could have been smacked hard with a hand, stepped on by a toddler or a pet, closed up in a case with too much stuff piled on top of it, or it could have been in a case that had a heavy object dropped on it, or that was sat upon. I don't think it was hit by a solid object, at least not while it was out of a case. I don't see any obvious signs of impact.

    The earlier repairs probably failed because there are cross grain fractures that were not reinforced after they were glued. Cracks along the grain often do not need to be reinforced, but cross grain top fractures should always be reinforced. The reinforcements should overlap the crack[s] by a 1/4" to 3/8", with the grain running perpendicular to the crack. They can be worked down to 1/16", perhaps less after they have been glued in. A reinforcement similar to a violin "soundpost patch" might be appropriate on this particular instrument.

    It looks like you've got enough beech there to reinforce side cracks on several dozen mandolins.
    Last edited by rcc56; Sep-02-2018 at 3:10am.

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