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Thread: Mandolin neck repair: the final solution?

  1. #51
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin neck repair: the final solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Kelsall View Post
    "Regardless of what method you use to bend the wood for the backstrap,there will always be residual stress in the strap after bending...."
    I would guess that there is some truth to that for sure.

    But I'm not sure how much it amounts to in the "real world of luthiery"?

    I suppose it depends in part on how properly/effectively/efficiently the bends in the piece were made in the first place?

    Thinking more about it if you bend a set of maple sides for a F-style mandolin and then decide not to use them and never glue them to the end and tail blocks do they ever become straight again? I doubt it.

    They will probably relax to some "equilibrium state" with less bend then when originally conformed but never again become straight.

    At that situation there is still stress but it is "internal" that is the stresses are within the piece of wood per se and would not be imparted outside of that?

    So when you glue them in place it is only that "residual stress" -- i.e., the difference between the conformation immediately after the bending process is completed and the final shape of the cooled dry wood that has to be contained or contended with?

    This would be much less (or at least less) than the total stress that was generated in the bending process?
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  2. #52

    Default Re: Mandolin neck repair: the final solution?

    I watched the Jerry Rossa videos again too. Someone got the deal of a century on an insane repair. The guy is very humble.
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  3. #53
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin neck repair: the final solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Br1ck View Post
    I watched the Jerry Rossa videos again too. Someone got the deal of a century on an insane repair. The guy is very humble.
    Yes he is -- and very skilled as well. His Rosa mandolins are supposed to be excellent but I have never seen one and I don't think there are too many around.

    In addition to musical instruments he builds all kinds of things to do specialty tasks including pieces of farm equipment. Some people are born with the tinker's genius. He has nearly 300 instrument repair videos on YouTube and is up to 16,000 subscribers. I hope the time he puts into these videos is worth the effort financially for him.

    Yeah he charged that guy supposedly only about $400 for all that work. That two hours of edited video must have represented maybe 5 to10 times that amount of actual shop time? What I find amazing is how he is able to match up colors and tones so well since he is color blind.

    I hope he does another Christmas video with his picking buddies again this year.
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  4. #54

    Default Re: Mandolin neck repair: the final solution?

    Not to be overly critical, but I've watched several of the Rosa String Works videos. He exhibits considerable skill on some repairs, but in other ways has seemingly total disregard for maintaining originality - finish touchups, using modern glue where it's unnecessary, and so on. Under no circumstances would I allow that kind of work on any of my vintage instruments.

  5. #55

    Default Re: Mandolin neck repair: the final solution?

    I agree there are certain standards for the repair of vintage instruments, but in my opinion, when a neck is broken in two and wood needs to be spliced in to fix it, then originality has already been lost and fixing the instrument becomes the goal over the glue choice, filler, putty, epoxy, whatever, etc......you're basically dealing with a lost cause, IMHO.

  6. #56

    Default Re: Mandolin neck repair: the final solution?

    I couldn't disagree more, but in a kindly fashion I hope! Originality is certainly hampered by such damage, but not so much as if a neck is replaced rather than repaired. When I see a repairman using modern techniques where there is no good reason, I assume we do not share the same respect for vintage restoration methods. It makes me doubt our compatibility. I didn't mean to imply that only hide glue should be used for the type of repair in this thread, or to divert the discussion to glue types at all. I wanted to emphasize the value of saving the neck over replacing it. For that, it might be best to get advice from repairmen who value saving over replacing whenever possible.

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  8. #57
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    Default Re: Mandolin neck repair: the final solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Buck View Post
    I couldn't disagree more, but in a kindly fashion I hope! Originality is certainly hampered by such damage, but not so much as if a neck is replaced rather than repaired. When I see a repairman using modern techniques where there is no good reason, I assume we do not share the same respect for vintage restoration methods. It makes me doubt our compatibility. I didn't mean to imply that only hide glue should be used for the type of repair in this thread, or to divert the discussion to glue types at all. I wanted to emphasize the value of saving the neck over replacing it. For that, it might be best to get advice from repairmen who value saving over replacing whenever possible.
    Well for for starters that mandolin was not a vintage instrument? Second, it seems that the owner of a $1000 mandolin most likely did not care about "originality" anyway he just wanted a mandolin that looked good and that he could play. That makes perfect sense to me.

    To get a new factory neck for that mandolin from "The Loar" (I have no idea how you would do that?) and then get it fitted up and put on would cost at least half again what the instrument costs new? At least that would be my guess. In truth I doubt it could even be done? But even if it could to spend that kind of money on that level of a mandolin would hardly be a wise investment? You have an "original" $1000 mandolin for $1500 to $2000 invested???

    As it was Jerry kindly gave him a $1500 repair for $400 - he didn't have to he just did. Any other repair guy would have charged at least two to three times that -- in fact most would say probably say I can't fix that mandolin at a price worth your money?

    If Jerry fixes a vintage instrument he always fixes it in that way the owner wants. Many owners (vintage instrument or not) care more about "play ability" and looks than in maintaining an instrument in original condition. Those decisions are the owner's call of course.

    Those are the reason why it is almost impossible to get an instrument into Jerry's shop he has a back log of work a mile long because he is very good and reasonable.
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    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Mandolin neck repair: the final solution?

    BTW, how much would a new neck be in such case (headstock overlay, fretboard and truss rod could be reused)? I have no idea about US charges for such jobs.
    Adrian

  10. #59

    Default Re: Mandolin neck repair: the final solution?

    To clarify, I was not talking about a video on repairing a modern instrument. There are several videos showing repair of vintage instruments. I guess I'm just set in another direction when it comes to vintage repair. Sorry if I offended anyone.

  11. #60

    Default Re: Mandolin neck repair: the final solution?

    Two years ago, Gilchrist completed the repair of "The First Loar" mandolin with the ugly cracked top that was filled with putty and whatever? It was known as a great sounding Loar prior to the repair and Gilchrist, himself, was concerned that it wouldn't sound as good after being repaired. Turns out, everyone seems to like the repaired mandolin better.....(this was the subject of an MC thread showing pictures, etc.)

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  13. #61
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    Default Re: Mandolin neck repair: the final solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Buck View Post
    To clarify, I was not talking about a video on repairing a modern instrument. There are several videos showing repair of vintage instruments. I guess I'm just set in another direction when it comes to vintage repair. Sorry if I offended anyone.
    Absolutely no offense taken at all Todd!! None!

    Everyone has their own philosophy on vintage instruments. And views change for everyone. If you look back far enough you'll find the opinon proffered by me-myself on the forum that we don't really own vintage instruments but we are only their "caretaker" while we are alive. Don't really believe that anymore but it's still a nice idea -- just not too practical. People own their legally acquired property and can do as they wish but it would be nice if everyone were sensitive to the bit of history that they own.

    I would think you are correct that Jerry is more into repair then restoration with the goal of preserving vintage aspects. The 1918 Gibson L3 guitar makes that point - -but I'll bet the owner was happy?
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    Default Re: Mandolin neck repair: the final solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mando View Post
    Two years ago, Gilchrist completed the repair of "The First Loar" mandolin with the ugly cracked top that was filled with putty and whatever? It was known as a great sounding Loar prior to the repair and Gilchrist, himself, was concerned that it wouldn't sound as good after being repaired. Turns out, everyone seems to like the repaired mandolin better.....(this was the subject of an MC thread showing pictures, etc.)
    That is a great example of how the trade off have to be considered -- case by case.
    Bernie
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  16. #63
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Mandolin neck repair: the final solution?

    I read a quote years ago going something like: good violin repair is one that makes instrument playable again, great is one that is invisible, and epic if it looks the same 50 years later....
    Of course valuable violin repairs have pretty strict rules but some may apply to mandolins as well.
    Gilchrist used some non-traditional approaches on that repair (most likely decisions of the owner selected from several possibilities) and only time will tell how it will hold.
    Adrian

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  18. #64

    Default Re: Mandolin neck repair: the final solution?

    I think Jerry Rosa looks at all instruments pretty much the same, a broken instrument that needs fixing at a price they can afford. He has whole videos on glue alone and why he goes modern. I don't think he really gets vintage instruments owners want to keep vintage. They just want them fixed. He gives them what they want.

    By the way, the Godfather theme was played on a Rosa mandolin.

    Three busted up guitars are now fixed and playing because I watched and learned from his videos. I watch everything he puts out and he is quick to point out where his methods may deviate from the norm, the most prominent being his glue selection.

    The fact he can make a log splitter, or a portable saw mill, or a brass switch tip is an interesting diversion.
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    Default Re: Mandolin neck repair: the final solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Br1ck View Post
    I think Jerry Rosa looks at all instruments pretty much the same, a broken instrument that needs fixing at a price they can afford. He has whole videos on glue alone and why he goes modern. I don't think he really gets vintage instruments owners want to keep vintage. They just want them fixed. He gives them what they want.

    By the way, the Godfather theme was played on a Rosa mandolin.

    Three busted up guitars are now fixed and playing because I watched and learned from his videos. I watch everything he puts out and he is quick to point out where his methods may deviate from the norm, the most prominent being his glue selection.

    The fact he can make a log splitter, or a portable saw mill, or a brass switch tip is an interesting diversion.
    I agree! I wish he lived close to me!

    I have started working on the neck repair again (subject of this string) and I'm about at the point of bending the back strap. Might try that tomorrow.

    What is the story of a Rosa mandolin and the Godfather Theme? That is a tune I like to play actually -- I play it in Dm but I think the TV show version was Bm?
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  21. #66

    Default Re: Mandolin neck repair: the final solution?

    I don't know how, but a Rosa mandolin ended up with a NY studio musician, you know , the kind of guy who can play anything, and the guy was on the Godfather recording session, had his mandolin, so played the part.
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    Default Re: Mandolin neck repair: the final solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Br1ck View Post
    I don't know how, but a Rosa mandolin ended up with a NY studio musician, you know , the kind of guy who can play anything, and the guy was on the Godfather recording session, had his mandolin, so played the part.
    Not to cast doubt here, but "The Godfather" was released in 1972 and Jerry Rosa didn't start building until a decade after that:

    "Rosa String Works was born out of my desire to play and build my own acoustic instruments. Back in 1982 I couldn’t afford nor justify spending thousands of dollars on a mandolin since I was just a beginner. So I decided to build my own. I soon built another, then repairs started rolling in. The rest as they say is history."

    https://rosastringworks.com/

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    Default Re: Mandolin neck repair: the final solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Streip View Post
    Not to cast doubt here, but "The Godfather" was released in 1972 and Jerry Rosa didn't start building until a decade after that:

    "Rosa String Works was born out of my desire to play and build my own acoustic instruments. Back in 1982 I couldn’t afford nor justify spending thousands of dollars on a mandolin since I was just a beginner. So I decided to build my own. I soon built another, then repairs started rolling in. The rest as they say is history."

    https://rosastringworks.com/
    Was the theme used on the TV series the Sopranos too? I can't remember.
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    Default Re: Mandolin neck repair: the final solution?

    "A sudden clash of thunder, the mind doors burst open, and lo, there sits old man Buddha-nature in all his homeliness."
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    Default Re: Mandolin neck repair: the final solution?

    Well if we are done with the Godfather theme I like to get back to the topic of the neck repair!

    I am about ready to start the back strap.

    Here are three images the mandolin with wood removed in preparation for gluing on the back strap.

    The Second image just shows a piece of curly maple that I will use to make the back strap out of.

    The third image is a bending jig I made up from a piece of fir scrap wood that shows the profile of the bend I have make in order to get the back strap to fit on properly.

    I have been practicing on ways to heat the maple so I can shape it fit in tight for gluing.
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  27. #71

    Default Re: Mandolin neck repair: the final solution?

    Good luck, Bernie! Looks like you have it figured out.

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  29. #72
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Mandolin neck repair: the final solution?

    Looks substantial enough to hold well. Make sure to use flexible caul for gluing it on. I have cutoffs from old cork floor boards for this - 1/2" thick wooden core with 1/8 cork layer. I would cut thin kerf cuts 1/4" spaced across the piece (just like for linings inside mandolin) almost all through the wood so it will conform to the curve and provide good even clamping pressure.
    Adrian

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  31. #73
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    Default Re: Mandolin neck repair: the final solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoGo View Post
    Looks substantial enough to hold well. Make sure to use flexible caul for gluing it on. I have cutoffs from old cork floor boards for this - 1/2" thick wooden core with 1/8 cork layer. I would cut thin kerf cuts 1/4" spaced across the piece (just like for linings inside mandolin) almost all through the wood so it will conform to the curve and provide good even clamping pressure.
    Do you mean kerf cuts on the caul not on the actual back strap piece I think?

    I'll see about doing that.

    Since I am "pre-shaping" the back strap on my bending block (see 1st image below) it will not take much pressure to fit it up

    The contour on this block matches the mandolin so when I heat the strap and force it into the contours of the block it is almost a prefect fit to the mandolin neck (see image 2 below)

    That strap was the first piece I tried to bend and it is about the thickness I need for the strap maybe 0.160".

    As you might be able to see from the poor image it is nearly a perfect fit and would only need to be forced about 0.06" in order to make it fit snugly against the neck for glue up?

    I will wait a few days before doing the final bend and glue up in case someone points out something I am missing on this.

    Thanks for all the comments heretofore -- much appreciated!
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  32. #74
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    Default Re: Mandolin neck repair: the final solution?

    Looks good Bernie, saving the original neck is work the time and effort IMHO.
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  34. #75
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Mandolin neck repair: the final solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    Do you mean kerf cuts on the caul not on the actual back strap piece I think?
    Yes, on the caul. That is large area and you need really high force to clamp it together and move the extra glue out of the space. I would suggest start clamping in the center and quickly add clamps towards ends so the glue has somewhere to escape.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post

    Since I am "pre-shaping" the back strap on my bending block (see 1st image below) it will not take much pressure to fit it up
    It's not about the fit of the piece alone. Any trapped glue can work against you. I've seen CT scan of old Cremonese violin with chest patch where thickish layer of glue was trapped inside. You can bet that the restorer fitted the patch meticulously to the (millions worth) violin, but glue can be your worst enemy on such large surfaces.
    Adrian

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