cross-border travel

[Ranald]

The topic of cross-border travel with instruments has come up on the Forum a few times. I was reading a news article this morning about items confiscated at Heathrow Airport (London, UK) and came across the following:

"The guitars up on the wall — one of which picked up the signatures of Liam and Noel Gallagher somewhere along the way — are there because they're made partly out of rare rosewood, and arrived without the necessary permits."

Here's the link to the article, with a photo down the page showing three guitars. A warning to the sensitive: this article is mostly about animal products, and includes dead-critter photos.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/heathr...hing-1.4868822

[Folkmusician.com]

Yikes, so there is proof that at least some instruments are being confiscated. ouch.

[foldedpath]

Yikes, so there is proof that at least some instruments are being confiscated. ouch.

I follow these reports and yes, instruments are being confiscated. But as a general rule -- I am not a lawyer, all disclaimers apply, etc. -- you don't have to worry unless it's actually a CITES Appendix I species of wood or other material. It's important to be aware of that. For most of us, it's not an issue unless you're carrying a vintage instrument, or something recently made with exotic materials.

Case in point -- I still own a couple of acoustic guitars, a mandolin, an octave mandolin, and two "Irish" flutes. My S.O. owns a few fiddles. One of these days, we might travel to Ireland or Scotland from the USA. I know enough about what's in these instruments to make the following plans for International Border travel:

* I will never take my custom Santa Cruz steel string acoustic guitar across an Intl border, because it has Brazilian Rosewood binding on the body, and the peghead is covered with a Brazilian face. The back and sides are Koa, and chances are the Braz might pass for rosewood, but I won't take a chance. This guitar stays in the USA.

* My mandolin is redwood top with maple back, sides, and neck. I have a suspicion about the peghead laminate, but I think it's probably "brown striated ebony" and not Braz. The big deal with mandolins is restricted CITES I pearl. My tuner buttons are ebony, and the "Lebeda" logo has enough green color in it that I don't think it could be mistaken for CITES I pearl. I'd carry this mandolin across a border without worrying about it.

* One of my two "Irish" flutes is made from a now-CITES II material -- Grenadilla/Blackwood. I am allowed to carry this as a personal item across International borders as long as it's a personal possession and not carrying it for retail sale. My other flute is made from a wood that's not on the CITES list because it was logged out years ago and very rare now: Cocus wood. So I wouldn't worry about that, as long as I could convince a border agent that it was Cocus and not Brazilian rosewood. I think I could manage that.

Bottom line: considering the wood species most mandolins are made of, you shouldn't have to worry about crossing International borders. Just be careful if you have an older instrument that may have restricted CITES I "pearl," or possibly ivory in a nut or saddle, and definitely avoid crossing a border if it's an old instrument with Tortoise shell pickguard! I would hope we wouldn't have to say anything at this point, about Tortoise shell picks.

[slimt]

Ive encountered issues buying mandolins from the U.k as well as guitars and ukes. The crap they put you through is unreal. Abalone ebony rosewood of all types mohagany. Its a target for being siezed. They are not in good hands over there.

I feel bad for the sellers and potential buyers.

[foldedpath]

I feel bad for the sellers and potential buyers.

The sellers and buyers are adapting. You just have to make an effort to stay informed.

[Jill McAuley]

I read something about CITES changes for 2019 over on the Acoustic Guitar Forum - it said that "finished" wood would be exempted?

[foldedpath]

I read something about CITES changes for 2019 over on the Acoustic Guitar Forum - it said that "finished" wood would be exempted?

As I understand it, that has to to do with how manufacturers are regulated. Nothing to do with us end-users, when we travel with personal instruments across borders, or sell instruments privately.

We can travel freely with CITES II materials as personal possessions across borders with no problem, just not the CITES I stuff like Braz rosewood.

It only gets sticky if we as private sellers, or retailers, or builders, *sell* these items across borders. I could travel to Ireland with my Blackwood flute (CITES II) as a personal posession. But legally, I couldn't sell it on Ebay from the USA to someone in Ireland without going through some paperwork hassles.

This is now a big concern for anyone buying and selling on the Internet across borders. Not if you're hand-carrying something across a border as a personal instrument.

[slimt]

I read something about CITES changes for 2019 over on the Acoustic Guitar Forum - it said that "finished" wood would be exempted?

I read something along those lines... they will attempt to solve the issue then lift the ban at another meeting of the minds.. ,, .. but for most, a little to late on losing these valuble Guitars and so on.. .. for those who buy from the U.S entering into Canada.. you watch that GSP program Ebay has.. there seizing guitars as well.. they all get put into dry cold storage .

[foldedpath]

I read something along those lines... they will attempt to solve the issue then lift the ban at another meeting of the minds.. ,, .. but for most, a little to late on losing these valuble Guitars and so on.. .. for those who buy from the U.S entering into Canada.. you watch that GSP program Ebay has.. there seizing guitars as well.. they all get put into dry cold storage .

Nobody is seizing guitars on a border crossing unless it's a CITES I material like Brazilian Rosewood, or some antique with tortoise shell or restricted pearl, or ivory.

Get informed about how this works, and it's really not that complicated.

[Jeff Mando]

My question is who gets to make the actual determination of what gets seized at the border? Someone with a PhD in Dendrology or some rookie customs agent who read a brochure on the subject during his lunch break? I'm guessing the latter is closer to the truth.......

I agree, leave your good stuff at home.....

[Daniel Nestlerode]

I just dig the variety and randomness of the content in this image.

But I also worry that at least two instruments in this image may have been seized unnecessarily.
And I don't see any tags. The article does not say if they recording the seizures and cataloguing the materials.

This is about to get more complex for those of us in Europe and the UK, as the UK prepares to leave the EU. There will likely be customs checks in Calais (oh joy!)

I travel with a carbon fibre mandolin these days.

Daniel

[slimt]

Nobody is seizing guitars on a border crossing unless it's a CITES I material like Brazilian Rosewood, or some antique with tortoise shell or restricted pearl, or ivory.

Get informed about how this works, and it's really not that complicated.

Ive actually lost two.

[Ranald]

I just dig the variety and randomness of the content in this image.

I just noticed a fourth guitar, or at least guitar neck, in the middle of the picture, at the bottom, below the brown electric guitar. I'm picturing some poor guy walking innocently toward customs carrying a guitar, a sword, a tusk, a few boards, a stuffed animal, and some sort of scientific (or perhaps brewing) equipment, thinking, That was a great vacation; I can't wait to get home and play with all my new stuff.

[foldedpath]

Ive actually lost two.

What were the circumstances? Was it a legal seizure and what were the materials involved?

[yankees1]

Any problem taking your mandolin on a cruise ship ? My wife has booked a ten day cruise next February for the Western Caribbean and I told her that the only way I will go is with my mandolin as I can't go ten days without practicing !

[slimt]

What were the circumstances? Was it a legal seizure and what were the materials involved?

One was a D45 Indian Rosewood with Abalone inlay. No permit to ship out of country .

The other was a Madagascar 41 D28 authentic .15000 worth of guitars that I will never see.

This was at the very beginning of the no Rosewood ban prior to the permit required for shipping . Im familiar with Brazilians. I have completely backed away from those and I have moved all my Brazilians off to new homes.

These laws that were put in place has hurt the guitar trading market in a big way.

[doc holiday]

What were the circumstances?

Were they shipped or were you bringing them across the border in person?

[slimt]

Were they shipped or were you bringing them across the border in person?

These were shipped.

[foldedpath]

These were shipped.

Right, that's the catch with the new regs. You can hand-carry instruments with CITES II materials, but not ship without paperwork at both ends of the transaction. It's the difference between personal use and sale that triggers the paperwork requirement.

And yes, it's causing headaches for retailers and private sellers, I know. A local flute maker used the legit paperwork method to sell Blackwood flutes from the USA to other countries, but it ended up being enough of a hassle that I think he's gone back to only selling Mopane flutes overseas, and reserving Blackwood for USA customers.

It's still important to emphasize that you can hand-carry these items as personal possessions across borders, as long as it isn't a CITES item like Brazilian Rosewood, Pearl, Ivory, Tortoise Shell, etc.

[Jill McAuley]

I'll be moving back home in a couple of years and I'm already dreading the headache of getting my instruments back with me, both from an "arrive in one piece" standpoint and the CITES stuff.

[dhergert]

When the CITES II issues first began to come up, there were those here who kept saying it wouldn't be a problem, trying to discourage people from being concerned about it.

CITES is a HUGE issue for international instrument commerce.

It is also a real issue for anyone traveling internationally with their valuable personal instruments.

For my wife and I, as musicians who like to always travel with nice instruments, it's enough to discourage international travel. All of our instruments have some form of MOP on them, many of them have non-Brazilian rosewood, ebony, etc. We don't know what we're safe to travel with.

The biggest issue for traveling musicians going from country to country is that the rules are not administered consistently. A person just does not know what to expect.

Hopefully CITES designers will make it a priority to work on consistent international rules, consistent international forms and consistent international charges for travelers with instruments. And very importantly, they need consistent international examination rules for CITES-related officers.

[Folkmusician.com]

I realize we do need protection in place, but the stories I hear about importing is crazy. Whole containers being held and shippers having to pullout rosewood instruments because there are no processes to inspect and validate the paperwork. Even legal rosewood is presenting an issue.

Get paperwork in order.
Load container.
Send Container over to the port.
Oh wait, you can't ship this.
Container goes back.
Remove all rosewood instruments.
try again.

[slimt]

I was told by someone in the know after my issues. That even travelling with those instruments you are in your best interest to aquire a Travelling Visa for your instruments .

If it was not for forums these types of info are not public savy.

[almeriastrings]

My question is who gets to make the actual determination of what gets seized at the border? Someone with a PhD in Dendrology or some rookie customs agent who read a brochure on the subject during his lunch break? I'm guessing the latter is closer to the truth.......

Your guess is far from what really happens.

An initial 'hold' is put on a 'suspicious' item by an agent. These people have received extensive ongoing training, incidentally. At that point the case is escalated for a full investigation/determination. That is not conducted by 'rookies' but by very experienced, senior personnel. In addition to their own expertise, they can draw on full forensic laboratory services that can make precise determinations on species/age of a huge variety of materials. In some highly specialized cases 'outside' experts are also called in. Absolutely none of this depends on guesswork.

I know this because I used to be involved in the process and worked with CITES authorities in several countries.

Would add that the items confiscated at LHR would all involve Appendix 1 endangered species, or - alternatively - unsafe, untreated animal parts or skins that pose a serious public health risk (e.g, anthrax or invasive parasites). Some untreated wood or plant items are seized on the same grounds. This is for travellers... as Foldedpath notes, SHIPPING items is a totally different situation.

[Jeff Mando]

I appreciate your expertise. I also appreciate your faith in the system that things will be done fairly. I have personally spent too many hours of my life trying to reason with overzealous customs agents for me to have that same faith that things are always done by the book. Sometimes personalities can collide when dealing with borders, language, attitudes, prejudice, and interpretation of laws, IMHO.