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Thread: Keeping Fingers Down

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    Registered User Mike Buesseler's Avatar
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    I have learned from books and from advice here that it is good practice to keep one's fingers held down on an ascending sequence of notes on the same string. #In other words, if you play, say, B, C, D on the second string, you should keep your first and second fingers down on those frets as you approach the 5th fret, D.

    But, if the next note after the D is on another string--say an E on the first string, for example--and then I come back to the second string, #should I be holding down the D in the meantime? #This doesn't seem right for a couple of reasons. #1.) Holding the D down for the duration of the E might extend its intended time duration, e.g., an eighth note becomes a quarter note--or more, depending on the length of that E. # 2.) #I tend to muff the E note with the finger holding down the D on the second fret. #

    So, what's the full interpretation of the rule? #Keep fingers held down until you change strings, or until you exceed the written duration of the last note, or what? #I'm trying to train myself to KEEP THOSE FINGERS down, but I see now that there are exceptions to every rule (D*mmit)!




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    Keep them down until you leave the string for the next note-all the fingers come off at once.

    [B]TECHNIQUE TIPS HERE
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    Registered User John Flynn's Avatar
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    Well, I am absolutely nobody to be arguing with John McGann. If he says so, that should be it! My casual observation, though, is that I see a lot of great, "household name" players with thier fingers flyin' all over the place. So what's with that?

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    Registered User Mike Buesseler's Avatar
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    John, thank you for the quick response. I was hoping you'd pipe in. Ok, I hear you: lift them all at once when you leave that string. It's just that the next sequence is a descending one on that second string. It seems right to keep them finger where they are....and, since I'm getting the habit of keeping them down, I don't think to lift them until I see trouble coming, e.g., the example I gave. See my point? The rule is good, unless, or as long as.... I guess the rule is a guideline, not a commandment, huh? Like everything else....

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    I'd agree to that - not a commandment. I am one of those with "flying fingers", and for that change-of-string rule I think I should be, because Irish tunes make you change strings approx. every second note. Also, I do lots of double stops where fingers better stay out of the way of neighboring strings. I remember my boyhood violin teachers telling me to keep my fingers down, but I just couldn't. It is never a problem as long as you keep your left and right hands in sync, so there's the one needed left finger down when the right hand strikes.
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

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    two t's and one hyphen fatt-dad's Avatar
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    Leave your fingers down until you have to pick them up for the next note. That's the rule, I try to follow it and my fingers are flying also - so what's up with that?

    f-d
    ˇpapá gordo ain’t no madre flaca!

    '20 A3, '30 L-1, '97 914, 2012 Cohen A5, 2012 Muth A5, '14 OM28A

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    It just makes sense that flying fingers mean your fingers are travelling far out into space and have to make the return journey, which means less efficiency and more work.

    I'm not arguing with great players who have flying fingers- technique isn't everything-great technique and no soul or feel makes bad music IMHO- but I usually address this to students who AREN'T great players (yet).

    And I speak from experience- I had flying fingers until I was in my mid-20's and had to practice like crazy to break the habit. Why? because it's a "rule"? NO. Because my sound was choppy, my timing was inaccurate, and my tone wasn't happening!

    Believe me, I am as suspect of "rules and dogma" as anybody. I also believe in doing what is needed to improve my musicianship.

    Take this easy test- play 4 notes with four fingers on one string ascending (say, 0 2 4 5 7 on the E string, fingers 1 2 3 4). If you leave you fingers down after playing each note, it is 4 movements for 4 notes. If you lift each finger individually, it is 7 movements, almost twice the work for the same amount of notes. Wonder why you can't "get up to speed" or it sounds choppy? Elementary, Watson!!!



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    John,

    With all due respect (and that is a boatload), from the perspective of someone having trouble with it, your numbers are backwards. Keeping them down is doing something, if that makes any sense. The flying up isn't a conscious effort, but keeping them down is. So it isn't the movements at the fingers, but the number of thoughts in the head. I guess the goal is to be conscious of every movement or to only move consciously. But until I get over that hump, holding them down actually slows me down. I do agree that I should do it for the long haul.
    "First you master your instrument, then you master the music, then you forget about all that ... and just play"
    Charlie "Bird" Parker

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    Registered User Bob DeVellis's Avatar
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    The "logic" seems to go both ways. On one hand, as John says, keeping them down creates an economy of motion. On the other hand, it does not create an economy of hand tension. Instead of applying force to the one finger that needs to be held down, you're applying it to four. Clearly, if the sequence descends back down from whence it started, holding the notes is worth that extra effort. I suspect that different players, and perhaps the same players as their skills change, find one or the other cost -- additional movement or additional hand tension -- the easier to pay. If you've got a really powerful left hand, the extra effort to hold all 4 strings down probably seems trivial. This is less true for a beginner (as one example) who may also have an instrument with higher action. As an exercise (e.g., Aonzo scales), holding down as many notes at once as you can is a good way to develop hand strength. Beyond that, I suspect it's likely to vary from individual to individual.

    Let me state the obvious: Anyone in his right mind who has a choice between my advice and John's should steer clear of anything I say. I don't consider any of this advice, just an observation.



    Bob DeVellis

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    No- the fingers go down for a reason-to sound the note. You merely leave them in place instead of lifting.

    Lifting gains you nothing. Zero. Nada. It is nothing but wasted motion. It slows you down. It doesn't do a thing for you in the plus column. There is NO reason to lift them individually. You are just burning calories that you can't spare!

    It is not using any additional musculature to hold them down, if your hand is in a good position to begin with- you just leave them there. It will feel awkward at first, like anything else does including a chop chord, until you get used to it, all else being equal.

    It took me three solid months of daily practice (4-6 hours a day) in front of a mirror to break the bad left and right hand habits I had developed over 15 years of playing. By then, I had graduated from Berklee, where I had NOT ONE piece of technical advice regarding playing- it was just, "alternate picking". That's all. So I had a LOT of mileage under my belt.

    I had hit the wall speed and tone wise. Anyone who heard me around Boston in 1981 can vouch for how ham-fisted I was.

    There is no secret to "sounding good"- it's figuring out what is the most efficient way to play your instrument and having something to say. To get to the bottom of those simple ideas takes time. Lots of it, too.

    BTW- this "fingers down" advice came to me directly from Andy Statman and Russ Barenberg. I think Andy is the most advanced mandolinist on the planet, so the advice I am giving is merely passed on from him.

    If your fingers fly and you are happy with the way you sound, just ignore my posts. I am not trying to rain on anyone's parade. I am just trying to pass on good common sense advice that helped me get out of a very deep and potentially disasterous rut.



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    i had a quick question about this.. when practicing scales and decending across all 4 strings, do you move all 4 fingers to their position at the same time? ie, so that all 4 fingers are in position at the start of that string's "run" down the scale???
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    Keith, i don't plant all of them if I am descending, but I keep them pretty close to the string- sometimes touching the string at the frets and then pressing down as the notes descend...but if you see me on a gig, I may lapse into flying fingers too...try as i might not to!

    i think of it as trying to "stay in the neighborhood" with the left hand fingers. As always, the further out you go, the further you have to come back (sounds easy enough!)



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    two t's and one hyphen fatt-dad's Avatar
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    Uh, we're not talking about heavy lifting here. We're after a nice tone. To say it's harder to keep your fingers down or as difficult as lifting them is not on the point (IMHO). If you keep your fingers down on the note, it allows a better ringing tone and gives you more music (and produces a less choppy tone). Even if it were more "difficult" it would just be worth it.

    fatt i'm-no-expert-either dad
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    Peter- you are one of the lucky few. Most of us grew up with fingers flailing away. I always thought it looked pretty rock and roll until i watched (Yes guitarist) Steve Howe and thought "that's different!"
    John McGann, Associate Professor, Berklee College of Music
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    Registered User Bob DeVellis's Avatar
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    Ahaa!! Big lightbulb goes on!! I don't know where I got the idea, John, but I'd assumed you were talking about pressing down all fingers. I think what you actually mean is just resting the fingers there on the strings passively, not applying force anywhere but on the actual highest finger? Have I got it right now? That makes perfect sense and I understand what you mean about economy of movement. You just release the tension of each finger as it finishes its fretting task and let it sit right where it is. I think I fall into the habit of hovering just above the string, but you're right, that doesn't really accomplish anything but some extra movement. I'll give it a try. Thanks much for your patience.
    Bob DeVellis

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    Hi Bob- I do hold the notes down as I ascend, on guitar, mando, bass...if you descend, they are waiting for you; if you go on to another string, they all release at once. See, you'd still be using musculature to release the notes as you ascend, which is halfway to lifting anyway. My way of playing is once a finger is down, it stays down until we move to another string.

    For trying it out, slow WAY down and watch how smoothly you can make the connections...
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    John, that's excellent advice, but my fingers simply cannot do that. My middle and ring fingers come down 1 fret apart, and can't come down 2 frets apart, no matter how hard I try. So I could maybe do 02457 but I can't do 02357 and leave all my fingers down.

    Because of this, I've just resigned myself to picking my fingers back up, although I have gotten better about the distance they move from the strings. They don't fly around as much as they used to.

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    Registered User Mike Buesseler's Avatar
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    Sometimes it feels risky asking what seem like dumb or tedious questions....But, in this case--and as usual--I am SO glad I posted this one.

    I got great answers to my question and more than that. I hadn't connected this issue with sounding "choppy," which is one of my main complaints about my sound these days. I thought the problem must be in my right hand, and try as I might, can not seem to improve my smoothness. I will now pay attention to my left hand more. Thank you, John, and everyone who piped up here. It is always comforting to find out you are not the only one with a certain problem.

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    Chief Moderator/Shepherd Ted Eschliman's Avatar
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    Pardon me if this is redundant, but this daily exercise helps me with my own personal struggle with "Flying" Fingers:
    Lydian DUDU.
    Simplifying the Right Hand helps me focus on the Left, and if you get a really healthy, wide pick stroke going, it's even more obvious to your ear how you are connecting each note with the left fingers.
    Ted Eschliman

    Author, Getting Into Jazz Mandolin

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    Wow. This is exactly the technique issue that is holding me back and that I discussed this week with my teacher. This message board ROCKS!

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Now that it goes into anatomy this far, and after analyzing my playing style more thoroughly, I can get in line with those other small-handed people here. I play an OM with a 21" scale length, and a quite high action (I elevated it myself, because I like to play LOUD, and the Fylde Touchstone conveys it), and a small hand with a weak pinky I use on the E string only. Now playing a tune in D and reaching for C# on the G string with the ring finger just cannot be done with other fingers fixed somewhere. Even worse - if I play the Coleraine Jig I have to jump between A#, A string, index finger and G#, D string, ring finger; the widest stretch I could do is B - G.
    So my style rather resembles a bass or zouk player's.
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

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    Hmmm... #I must be lucky. #Holding those fingers down (ascending) and pickin' 'em up (descending) just comes natural to me. #The only time I pick up the fingers (ascending) is when the "reach" requires it. #I never think about it. #I just do it... #(I wouldn't have even known I did it, or considered it an issue, until I read this thread.) #So how come I still sound (and play) so crassly? (word edited...) #




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    A good exercise for keeping fingers down and to gain finger independence is from something Alan Bibey showed me.

    Finger a 5-1 B double stop with middle and index (4th fret on the D string, 2nd fret on the A string). Play 4, 7 (on D string; 7 uses the pinky), 2, slide into 6 , 2 (these 3 on A string), 7 (on D), 2 (on A). Tough to write out here, and even tougher to do <g>.

    Do this cleanly and you'll sound like Alan (the other one, not me).

  24. #24

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    I tried your exercise suggestion, AlanN, and I don't get it. Wouldn't it be great if there was an easy way to whip up (here, at M'Cafe) the strings on the mandolin, for chart purposes, or even staff paper, or tab paper (?)... (I don't quite know what "tab" is...) OH, Scawww-awwwwwwt!

    Like this?
    l l l l l l l l l l l l l l l l
    l l X l l l l l l l l l l l l l
    l l l l l l l l l l l l l l l l
    l l l l l l l l l l l l l l l l
    l X l l l l l l l l l l l l l l

    Hey Alan, can you edit my post to fill in the X's where they should go? Nope... I don't think you can. I think I got the first one right, but I don't understand the rest. (Sadly, I'm even unclear on "doublestops." We're talkin' playing only those 2 (4) strings, right? 2 notes...) Show us how to do it!

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    Andy Statman has very small hands and can play anything. Small hands are not the issue in my experience of teaching (don't ask how many years now!)...if you hold your left hand in a way that the side of the fingers touch each other, you won't get the "wingspan". I use the analogy of the duck's webbed feet- you want the webbing at the base of the fingers to allow day;light between them, so each finger is independent. This may require you to turn your wrist slightly to get a better angle and thus a better reach. No one should have to move the hand to play the notes in first position leaving the fingers down on ascent, unless they are really unusually small (Andy is about 5' 4" I think!)
    John McGann, Associate Professor, Berklee College of Music
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