Left Wrist Placement

[MandoCando]

Hello,

I was looking at various Mando players and I have noticed some fret like a guitar with the wrist and hand in, while others fret with the wrist bent back. All sound great! Is there a formal way to play or however ya get there is great? What's your preference?

[foldedpath]

Here's a clip from Mike Marshall demonstrating what I think is the "standard" approach, basically treating the mandolin like a fiddle. Not thumb on the back of the neck like a guitar, more angled. Different players will adopt different approaches because mandolin technique isn't as formalized as it is for violin, but this works for me:

[Carl23]

I really liked this explanation:


Link... embeded video not working.

https://youtu.be/IdhVC0DzfFY

I think ergonomic considerations are really important to help stay relaxed and avoid injury.

C

[Mark Gunter]

Embedding Carl's video:




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But here's one by another famous person, only 2.5 minutes and all about wrist only ...
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[Carl23]

Thanks Mark,

That second video is really good.

I've ended up playing like a classical guitar (which I tried for a few months years ago).
Contrary to MMs demonstration.

I tried the standard way, but tensed up often. Once I went back to thumb centered on the back of the neck, I was fine.

Interesting to me is how the neck on my instrument is shaped like a rounded V, keeping my thumb on the point of the V allows me to change the focus of the pressure to any given string. (not sure if that is the best description)

I think the important thing is to use the position that causes the least pain / tension, and allows you to play for the longest time without getting tired.

C

[Mark Gunter]

Wow, Carl, not many people here cotton to "thumb on back of neck" from what I gather. I'm interested in your technique. Specifically, do you put the thumb on back of the neck behind the area where your fingers are working (as in classical guitar), or do you angle the thumb on back of the neck toward the headstock, so the fingers can take a more violin-like position across the fretboard? Your comment suggests the latter, but I would prefer the former.

Check out this thread where we discussed some of this, I put up a video of some of my thoughts in the first post: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...Thumb-Position

BTW, the video - I said she was famous - not like Chris Thile or Mike Marshall, but Barbara Schultz is the person who started and "runs" the Song-A-Week Social Group here at the cafe, a great lady and a great social group.

[Carl23]

Mark,

I'll see if I can get a photo.

I try to keep my thumb centered between fingers 2 and 3. sometimes it gets up between 1 and 2, especially if I'm working on arpeggios.

My thumb slides up and down the back of the neck. the nice side effect of this is that it forces me to not hold tension/pressure.

I seem to play with the mandolin at a very steep angle compared to what I see online. (again, I'll have to take a photo)

Also I play with a very "open hand". playing in traditional position felt way to cramped.
Now... I am a percussionist who plays a lot of hand percussion. So the muscles in my hand might not be normal. :-)

I've only been playing seriously for a short time. I have a small handful of Celtic tunes that I am working on and a couple classical pieces as well, who knows if this will cause problems later on.

Watch this space for photos.

Carl

(will check out the song a week group... way to fast for me at the moment, but maybe I'll turn it into the tune a month for myself)

[JeffD]

I think the important thing is to use the position that causes the least pain / tension, and allows you to play for the longest time without getting tired.

My experience has been slightly different. I don't disagree with you. but I would just add something here.

I have learned the hard way and concluded from experience that every departure from "standard" in mandolin holding, picking, pick holding, fretting, everything, every departure has consequences.

The good thing is that there is absolutely no way to avoid wishing you had started this differently. The problems don't appear immediately, and no matter who you are some comfortable habit is limiting you.

What seems to happen to me is that i reach a plateau, where i am doing fine, but getting myself to the "next level" or next increment of progress, feels impossible. Is just too hard. And what I have discovered is it is always due to some sub-standard habit I have adopted and become comfortable with. So I watch Mike's video again, I look critically at how I do everything, and I bring something into "compliance" with the standard. From that point, almost magically, progress starts and I climb out of the plateau and make track to the next level.

So what is my specific addition. I say the most important thing for a beginner is to begin. Get as close to standard as you can, but get started. And then fix problems as they become impediments. And expect to be fixing problems for ever, no matter how you started. You cannot avoid some regrets.

Enjoy the journey.

[Mark Gunter]

Newbies Group follows the SAW postings, starting from the beginning, at a one per month pace.

The SAW Group is not about learning a song per week. It's about posting a song per week. Everybody learns at their own pace, numerous regulars post videos or audio files of what they've done with the tune, and it's a very supportive, informative group. No pressure.

[Carl23]

PHOTOS!!!



quick grab (at work) but fairly accurate, flattens a bit when I sit down.
I do tend to have my elbow out from my body a bit more than this.



My wrist is bent a bit here (for camera angle) but otherwise good.

I suppose I should take a video to show how my hand rotates on my thumb as I move from string to string.

didn't really think about it, but this looks like my thumb is beneath fingers 2 and 3 (my default position)

thoughts?

C

[Carl23]

So what is my specific addition. I say the most important thing for a beginner is to begin. Get as close to standard as you can, but get started. And then fix problems as they become impediments. And expect to be fixing problems for ever, no matter how you started. You cannot avoid some regrets.

I feel the exact same way, except I would start with focusing on what doesn't cause pain/tension.



You are right, and I think either position is valid. Another important thing is to have a teacher to help you through the impediments that are sure to come along.

The biggest risk with my point of view is lazy playing. There is an important difference between relaxed and lazy.

C

[colorado_al]

I think it is important to learn good technique, however you speak as though the wrist and thumb position is static. For most players it isn't. You might use one technique when playing 2 note chords, and other with 4 note chords, another with barre chords, another with fingering that is a real stretch. It changes as you move up and down the neck, etc. The most important concept is to keep the hand as relaxed as possible for whatever you are playing. Also to anchor the instrument using your strumming arm, your leg, use a strap, etc, so that you don't have to hold the neck up while you play, leaving the fretting hand free to move as necessary.

[JeffD]

You are right, and I think either position is valid. Another important thing is to have a teacher to help you through the impediments that are sure to come along.

I didn't exactly say that. I would say that it is way non-standard, but that likely isn't the most important thing to worry about at this stage. I was trying to avoid the very real danger I have seen of someone trying to get everything right and being discouraged.

So while it is not standard, and IMO will limit your progress at some point, avoiding the pain and tension is a good priority right now so you keep at it. What I am saying is that likely you don't need to worry about it yet. You can wait till you have fixed the more egregious non-standards, which only you will know what they are.


This is all I have thought about the subject: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/e...Doing-it-Wrong

[JeffD]

I suppose I should take a video to show how my hand rotates on my thumb as I move from string to string.

didn't really think about it, but this looks like my thumb is beneath fingers 2 and 3 (my default position)

thoughts?

I try to keep my thumb more or less opposite my first finger. With that I can comfortably reach everything I need to in first position.

When shifting up the neck however, I have gotten into the habit of leaving my thumb where it was. this caused me to really alter my hands orientation to the neck and screw up a lot of things. My coach recently helped with that, but I still have to really concentrate on keeping thumb opposite first finger, in all positions.

What I have done is take a few fiddle tunes that i know real well and play up the neck (in third position) rather then go up to the next string. Every shift is uncomfortable, but i am getting better at it.

[Mark Gunter]

I misspoke (or 'mis-wrote') in post #6, which is more and more common for me to do every day. I wote that you prefer the latter and I the former, which is the opposite of what I meant. I meant you prefer thumb behind the neck where your fingers are working, while I prefer the thumb angled toward the headstock, away from where the fingers are working, which helps my reach with third finger and pinkie.

Like colorado_al, I believe most everybody changes the position depending on what chords they're reaching or whether they are playing melody lines, etc. but developing a good 'default, home-base' position was a priority for me, and I still monitor it regularly for relaxation, comfort and efficiency.

As far as the wrist goes, I generally keep it straight, not cocked back too much or curled forward too much. JeffD says not to worry much about it now, but now or later you may want to think about this a bit and monitor what you're doing during practice time - and maybe even try a few different tweaks if you think they may improve your playing progress.

[Luna Pick]

Regarding fretting hand/wrist, I don't think there is a "right" way, but folks often settle into a habit before learning about the position options and trying them. Several ways are comfortable and obviously work for people. To me once someone finds a comfortable position the important think is to efficiently position the hand for note/chord/position changes and shifts.

MM has enormous hands, his technique works for him, maybe not others. That's cool, right? Just play some music, comfortably.

[ralph johansson]

Hello,

I was looking at various Mando players and I have noticed some fret like a guitar with the wrist and hand in, while others fret with the wrist bent back. All sound great! Is there a formal way to play or however ya get there is great? What's your preference?

The default is a straight, or almost straight, wrist. Barre chords (to be avoided anyway) may force a forward arch; the G chop form, or the like, will force a backwards arch. But --- you don't palm the neck; your left hand is there to stop the strings, not to support the neck.

Here's what I believe is the most natural and relaxed way of approaching left hand technique on guitar and mandolin; Secure your instrument in place, using strap, points, or part of you right forearm. Let your left arm hang loosely on your side (fingers slightly curled). Raise your forearm, bring your hand to the neck of the instrument and start playing.

Your thumb will land where it lands, you shouldn't force it to go anywhere, nor apply any pressure. In my case, on the mandolin it will land on the side of the neck, the outer joint extending above the fretboard; on a barre chord it will slide in under the neck, going up the neck it will trail behind.
On the guitar it will also land on the side of the neck, but below the fretboard, and on barre chords, of course, it will pull in under the neck. In my case this is automatic since I have very little control over my left thumb. It stands at a 45 degree angle to the plane of my hand, I can fold it inwards, and that's all, so I don't even have to worry about it.

Owing to the wider neck on the guitar my fingers will mostly meet the fretboard at a right angle, parallel to the frets, not so on the mandolin. But, again, that's automatic.

[Pete Martin]

You might get something from the ergonomic videos I made. Look at Holding the Instrument and the Left Hand.

http://www.petimarpress.com/mandolin...%20videos.html

[Bill McCall]

Mandolins are not small guitars, they are plucked violins. I think if you examine both historical instruction and modern ergonomics you’ll see much more of the fiddle hand position than the guitar position. After 6 months of self study, my first teacher changed my left hand from a position similar to yours to a more fiddle like grip and it’s only been for the good.

Beginners are often terrible judges because they only see and solve today’s problem.

Ymmv

[Gary Leonard]

Carl, I see in that second picture something similar to what I was doing. And it looks like there is a lot of pressure on that thumb. in my case, I was getting a large callous on the side of my thumb, kinda along the edge of where you see in your picture the flesh of the thumb is pressed in. I have been aware of this issue for over a year now. The callous has gone away, and I am not using the side of my thumb as much, but I notice myself slipping into this bad habit, especially when trying to play tunes at tempo in a ITM session. I am in the process of tearing it all down and using a left hand position that uses little or no pressure consistently.

[JeffD]

Another observation Carl23, if I may, is the straightness of your pinky. I might straighten it some for specific reaches, but for the most part I curl it more or less like the other fingers. Less tension overall.

- - - Updated - - -

Mandolins are not small guitars, they are plucked violins. I think if you examine both historical instruction and modern ergonomics you’ll see much more of the fiddle hand position than the guitar position.

I agree.

[Mark Gunter]

BTW, posts #13 and #18 in this thread are truly gems. In my opinion, it is worth anyone's investment in time to watch Pete's ergonomics videos and take what you can use from them. And JeffD's blog posts are always fun and often instructive to read. For the one he linked to, be sure to read all the comments as well.

[Carl23]

Carl, I see in that second picture something similar to what I was doing. And it looks like there is a lot of pressure on that thumb. in my case, I was getting a large callous on the side of my thumb, kinda along the edge of where you see in your picture the flesh of the thumb is pressed in. I have been aware of this issue for over a year now. The callous has gone away, and I am not using the side of my thumb as much, but I notice myself slipping into this bad habit, especially when trying to play tunes at tempo in a ITM session. I am in the process of tearing it all down and using a left hand position that uses little or no pressure consistently.

Actually not much pressure on the thumb, otherwise I'd have issues changing positions. That was a change I made rather quickly, I had something I was working on that required moving from 5th postion to 1st (5 fretts... not sure if positions are measured the same here as on guitars)

I do occasionally "squeeze" for some chords, or if I'm alternatedng a left hand mute with a full chord.

I've recently been experimenting with just how little pressure I can use and still get a reasonable tone. Very tricky if I try to have any speed.

C

[Carl23]

Reg. pinky, quick photo, mostly about general instrument placement/hand position.

I try for 90deg. from fingerboard (much like violin). My reach is only 'so so' so far, and I have issues with the last knuckle of the pinky... very hard to get the angle right with any control. Pretty ok with the rest of the fingers.

I try to use my pinky as much as possible, generally keeps me away from open strings, but also gives me the choice as to which one I want.

C

[foldedpath]

Reg. pinky, quick photo, mostly about general instrument placement/hand position.

I try for 90deg. from fingerboard (much like violin). My reach is only 'so so' so far, and I have issues with the last knuckle of the pinky... very hard to get the angle right with any control. Pretty ok with the rest of the fingers.

I try to use my pinky as much as possible, generally keeps me away from open strings, but also gives me the choice as to which one I want.C

Use of the pinky is more of a choice when you move up the neck in closed positions.

In first position with open strings, it's essential to hit the high B note on the E course with your pinky, while remaining in first position. That's the foundation of "fiddle tune" playing in OldTime, Irish, and Scottish traditional tunes. It's what the fiddlers do, and they worked out these techniques long before mandolins came around.