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  1. #26
    Registered User Carl23's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    James Jacson held that chair for sun ra.
    OMG... another google search! Will definitely check that out!

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  2. #27
    Registered User Carl23's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    Definitely. If youre going to be a jazz player, stick with the instrument you play best - no matter what it is. Incorporate those styles on that instrument.
    I've played Jazz on vibe, so that is my current bias, and why I'm using the book that I am using. Some of the vibes styles (Bobby Hutchinson for example) are very relate-able. 2 Mallet Vibes translates great, with the exception of some rather difficult counterpoint type licks.

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  3. #28
    Registered User Carl23's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    Aebersold's books and play-alongs are a fine way to learn much about jazz, but they fail to include how to play the older (and in my opinion, better ) way using chord arpeggios and chord tones as the basis for improv, not matching a chord and a scale.

    Of course after you know the traditional way, THEN using the chord-scale method can add greatly to your playing, but used alone it often leaves much to be desired.
    Exactly what I need to work on. I've played this on vibes for like forever. I really do not think about the voicing and patterns any more.

    On the mandolin however....

    Really sucks that what happens in my head does not come out my fingers.

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  5. #29

    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Hey cool Carl. Fwiw, if you've mastered vibes, that should be an adequate platform, to say the least, for approaching mndln. My flamenco mentor, Rene Heredia, always told his master classes that gtr is just a little piano (obviously there are technical disparities, but conceptually..)

    You've got so many tools to apply to a smaller instrument - should be no dearth of material/ideas for you to array on mndln.. And just listen to everything.

    Check out Gerry Hemingway (cans/vibes)

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  7. #30
    Registered User Kevin Stueve's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Stiernberg View Post
    Jethro Burns was asked a similar question way back in the the Mandolin World days. I think his answer was "I listen to everything. I like most of it."

    I kinda side with Niles...jazz is not the instrument but the players. I'd go one further, it's not the instrument, it's the notes.

    OK, enough controversy and opinion. Here's players and notes that I dig currently, and for all time:

    Piano
    Wynton Kelly and Erroll Garner
    Clarinet
    Buddy DeFranco
    Trumpet, Cornet
    Clifford Brown, Chet Baker, Bobby Hackett, Wild Bill Davison
    Alto
    Bird, SONNY STITT, Cannonball, JOHNNY HODGES
    Tenor
    Lester Young, Sonny Stitt, Harry Allen, Dexter Gordon, Michael Brecker, Stan Getz
    Bari
    Ernie Caceres, Gerry Mulligan
    Bone
    Jack Teagarden
    Bass
    Ray Brown, Paul Chambers
    Drums
    Jimmy Cobb, Philly Joe Jones, Jo Jones, Buddy Rich, Peter Erskine
    Plectrists
    Jim Hall, Wes, Joe, George, Pat, Howard,John Pisano
    Vibeyphone
    Red Norvo
    No trombones . JJ Johnson? Bill Waltrous? (totally missed your Jack Teagarden apologize)
    Last edited by Kevin Stueve; Jan-17-2019 at 12:39pm. Reason: missed it
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  8. #31
    Joe B mandopops's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Jazz talk, fun.
    So much to agree with here. Mainly, listen to the whole history on many instruments, Armstrong to Coltrane to.... If you don’t like to listen to it, why play it.
    I agree with David that so much of the Jazz lesson material centers on Bop, post Bop, modal, etc styles. Early New Orleans, Swing era playing is treated as a quaint historical foot note. Unfortunate. I mainly listen to post forties Jazz, but not to the exclusion of early styles.
    I understand David’s point about the Piano Trio (Pno, Bass, Drm) & missing the horn. I don’t mind the Trio minus horn in small doses. Overall, in Jazz, I prefer the Music with horns & Piano over all string Jazz. “Heresy, you say. You don’t like, Django & Gypsy Jazz!?” Of course I do. Maybe in smaller doses than others. Partially, as much as those chugging rhythm Guitars are fun, I prefer the Piano Trio. It’s far more supportive, flexible, & interesting. My favorite Django/Grap recording is Djangolgy ( LP & expanded CD) with an Piano Rhythm section. In Mandolin Jazz, our friend Donnie’s Mandobopping with Piano, maybe my fave of his.
    As far a later styles, perhaps I am a bit parochial, but I like what I’ll call the East coast, Blue Note, hard Bop,(Blakey, Silver etc) over the West coast, cool, (Brubeck, Desmond, Baker etc)(I will make an exception for Mulligan, like him a bit). As much as I like 50’s & 60’s Miles, I’m not a big fan of the Birth of the Cool thing. I’ll take it further. The Miles/Gil Evans stuff doesn’t do much for me. Sketches of Spain is ok. Ellington & Mingus larger ensembles appeal to me more.
    I like a harder, bluseier, funkier approach to the Music. That’s why I think of Jazz & Blues together. No wall, between them. Any day I would listen to Albert King over Chet Baker. No contest.
    I’m more of a fan of the Guitar big arch top guys (Charlie,Kenny, Wes) than Niles. Love those Guys. I did go thru a fusion period, (McLaughlin, Coryell) not long lasting. I do like Scofield a lot. I’ve heard him a couple of times in Chicago & New York in a couple of contexts. He plays Jazz phrasing, with a Rock attack & not obsessed with speed. I like Sax man Joe Lovano quite a bit. Again heard him in Chicago & New York in different settings. Plays with wit & imagination.
    Couple names I think were over looked, maybe I missed them. Vibes, no Milt Jackson?!? From Blues to Ballads, he’s the Man.
    Multi-instrumentalist, Eric Dolphy, is great, with Mingus & his solo recordings. He can be lyrical & ‘outside”. Trumpet, Freddie Hubbard is high on my list. Heard him in the early 70’s & he knocked me out. He can spit out those long bebop lines with the best of them, but he was witty & playful while doing it.
    To be continued...

    Joe B
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  10. #32
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by mandopops View Post
    I like a harder, bluseier, funkier approach to the Music. That’s why I think of Jazz & Blues together. No wall, between them. Any day I would listen to Albert King over Chet Baker. No contest.

    Joe B
    Please continue!

    But I so agree with the no wall between jazz and blues concept.

    BTW, I've heard Joe play jazz. He does his teachers honor.

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  12. #33

    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Thing about the 'solid body' vs 'jazz box' electric gtr, it's really modernist vs 'straight ahead' guys (roughly, 'modernism' being anything after bop, for purposes here). Slab/technology saw the advent of the axe really emulating horns (Metheny played a hollow-body, but when he brought out the synth he emulated trumpet), until inevitably you have Nels Cline and Gregg Bendian doing a read on "Interstellar Space," and beyond..

    After about 1960, everything changed, and the electric guitar has limitless capabilities.

    Ultimately, my research went as far back as jelly roll and all that early (NOLA!) stuff, which is a gas to play on banjo. Talk about yer blues/jazz nexus - that delta trad is cool.

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  14. #34
    Registered User Pete Martin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Vibeyphone

    Don's list and mine are almost identical, just add Milt Jackson.
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  16. #35

    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Yum. Jazz.
    There was for years a weekly program on local radio - "The Early Years of Jazz" who spun all these platters - Hot Fives, King Oliver, Bolden, Bix, Henderson and that all along the Mississippi - bunch of guys but I can't remember, on often obscure dates. He spun the first recordings on up through I think about Ellington's early years. All those great soloists. ...So I love horns. To me Sonny's Secrets of the Sun I linked is intensely beautiful...it's avant garde Ellington, and still as evocative as 1962. Coltrane, Rollins et al also cited being interested in Gilmore. Sonny always had great players, Julian Priester, Pat Patrick, Thompson, Allen...

    I'm an admirer of contemporary improvisors Sam Rivers, (John Tchicai - Dutch), Braxton, McPhee, Lacy, (and his mate Chris Potter)...many have been mention...but especially Bill Dixon - who's still putting out superlative music - and Andrew Hill, in the U.S. I loved ensembles like AEC/AACM, WSQ, Rova, Mingus'...of course the Giants -

    Then I got heavily into weird European improvisational tradition, art music, etc.

    - incredible how much is happening today.

    I'm a bit obsessed - I have most of the classic Blue Note, Riverside, JSP, Sonny's Saturn, et al., and tons of avant Italian, German and Swiss label stuff collected.

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  18. #36
    Joe B mandopops's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    I hope all this isn’t getting too far afield from the original post. I think it’s the gang posting about all sorts of non Mandilin Jazz faves, players, recordings, & concerts.
    Catmandu2’s post reminded me about Chicago’s AACM organization. I first started to pick up on them in the early 70’s. They were definitely a new thing for me, Started hearing Muhal Richard Abrams, Leroy Jenkins, Art ensemble of Chicago’s et all.
    The Art Ensemble I saw a few times & they made a profound & lasting impression. They were one of the greatest improvisational experiences I witnessed. I say experiences because they were as much about Theatre as Music. I was into various performing arts. I saw them on stage in a regular Jazz presentation, but a couple of times in a more controlled setting. That’s where they created their magic. It may be difficult to describe. The stage would be set up with maybe a hundred instruments, toys, & props. Funny I think, that Bassist Malachi Favors would have on hand a Banjo, a tenor(?). One by one the players would enter dressed in costume & make up. They would randomly pick up instruments & drift in & out of Music themes. The Music could sound like early New Orleans, to Bop & beyond. There were no clear beginnings & endings. They would be verbal, as well, talk, hollers, chants. An hour later they would come to some conclusion.
    It was Mesmerizing.

    Joe B

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  20. #37

    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    And Joseph Jarman passed just last week. He and Mitchell were amazing multi-reedists and theorists - in the mold of Braxton..

    The AACM is still going strong.

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  22. #38
    Registered User Bruce Clausen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    "The AACM is still going strong."

    ...and Marshall Allen is still leading the Sun Ra group at age 94. (Sun Ra "ascended" in 1993.) I saw the Art Ensemble play once in Vancouver, but am sorry I never got to see the Intergalactic Research Arkestra live.

    Though he's now long gone, Albert Ayler would be another great sax player to mention in this context.

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  24. #39
    Joe B mandopops's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Yea, guys, AACM still going strong.
    Think it was in 2015 or 16 AACM anniversary thing at Chicago Jazz fest. Muhal composed a major full orchestral work & it was a full set (45 Mins?) piece. Quite an experience. Not every one's come of tea. It was the night's closer, so many took the opportunity to head home. None the less, I stayed. It was a great event.
    Yes, heard about Jarmon's passing. Maybe it was about 10 (?) years ago at the fest Jarman & Leroy Jenkins (Violin) played a set. It was cool to hear them together fronting a band.
    I never heard Sun Ra. I'm sure that was something to behold.
    Just got to add. Bix fest is in Davenport, IA every year. Wife & I go down every few years for a weekend. Usually about 10 or so Trad to Swing bands. Fun time. The other end of the spectrum from AACM.
    So much fits under the Jazz umbrella.
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  26. #40

    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Clausen View Post

    ...and Marshall Allen
    In the interview I posted (in the "Deeper/wider" thread) Allen mentioned, "...and I'm still not making any money.."

    Jenkins was an amazing improviser as well - saw him with Myra Melford.

    MR Abrams in turn led groups and large ensembles for many years - exciting, and innovative. A distinguished leader, composer and educator.

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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Don, I don't know if your caps lock got stuck on when typing your list but was happy to see Sonny Stitt in ALL CAPS. I think his bop licks lay nicely on mando - I've especially been trying to phrase those straight 16th that he runs in an otherwise swung 8ths solo.
    Speaking of vibes, I'll sometimes transcribe a Milt Jackson solo to understand that blues drenched thing he has - - sounds great on mando.
    As has often been mentioned, a key ingredient in the vocabulary is 'vocal' phrasing, an ebb and flow to an improvised melody, with pauses for 'breath' - - as opposed to the string of 8th notes that you'd use for a fiddle tune or bluegrass solo.

    -best, Will P
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  28. #42
    Registered User Tom Wright's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    In my jazz workshop group I ‘ve grown to appreciate Joe Henderson tunes brought by the sax players, and pianist Cedar Walton tunes have great swing and cool changes. We’ve tackled Chick Corea. Pat Metheny, and Michael Brecker tunes, and finally we have added Coltrane’s seminal Moment’s Notice. It’s great fun swinging with a full jazz ensemble, although I often am the harmony guy when our piano-playing young resident doc is on call.
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  30. #43

    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Henderson was a favorite of (my favorite) Andrew Hill's, playing on his seminal recordings - Black Fire, Point of Departure, Pax. Hill reciprocated on Joe's classic, Our Thing.

    An aside, Kenny Dorham also turns up on many of these classic sessions (as did Hutcherson).

  31. #44
    Registered User John Soper's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Speaking of non-mandolin jazz, I was lucky to have caught these guys yesterday at the Carrboro DjangoFest:

    http://www.rhythmfuturequartet.com

    String jazz band, one of the best American gypsy jazz groups. Great chops all around, this group has much more dynamic and rhythmic diversity than the average gypsy jazz group. Although he stuck with violin, Jason Anick is a "passable " mandolin player in his own right.

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  33. #45
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Hi Will!
    thanks for noticing the caps and for the astute musical observation about Stitt, something I had never considered. I did capitalize his name purposefully as I've been listening to his stuff intently for some time now. His soloing seems to have a wonderful balance of planning and spontaneity, thinking and feeling. It all seems so logical and accessible, yet there are intense phrases that connote screaming or ecstasy. And the sheer volume of his ideas is astounding--chorus after chorus of lines that have a beginning, a middle and an end, that take the listener somewhere and also are connected, and have an arc and flow. My favorite example of this is on a video of him playing Bird's "Buzzy" with J.J. Johnson and Howard McGhee...18 or 20 choruses of blues that put you on the edge of your seat as if you were watching a pitcher throw a perfect game. Interesting to note that Stitt's own assessment of his playing was that he just played nice songs and played "the pretty notes".
    Johnny Hodges was also capitalized-his stuff hits me the same way even though their two styles are so different. Johnny, coming from a Sidney Bechet foundation, featured the bent notes, more open space within and between phrases, hard swing, and immeasurable feeling. As articulate and logical and thrilling but in a different way. Kind of like the B.B. King of the saxophone while one might consider Stitt more like a George Benson of the saxophones.
    And oh yeah omitting Milt Jackson was a bad mistake on my part. Do you play his tune "Bop A'gin" ? Or maybe it's a Jimmy Heath tune..it's on a record he did with Nicholas Peyton and Christian McBride. And way back in the '70's there was the Oscar Peterson Big 6 album, live, with Joe Pass, Nils-Henning Oersted Pedersen, Louis Bellson...they played Au Privave and you can hear the roof lifting off the place.
    The common thread with all these cats is their playing is so SPIRITED. They are thinking about what they're doing, but also energized and just letting it go.

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  35. #46
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    I know the discussion is centered on horn players, + Milt Jackson, but there are some guitarists who capture some of the feeling discussed above, the planned lines plus spontaneity. One cat who fits this bill is Tal Farlow (started on mandolin, btw..). Tal has the melodic control, planned thing down, but adds off-the-cuff remarks, with panache that always makes sense. A fave tune of his was I Like To Recognize The Tune...don't we all.

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  37. #47
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Stiernberg View Post
    Hi Will!
    thanks for noticing the caps and for the astute musical observation about Stitt,
    ....His soloing seems to have a wonderful balance of planning and spontaneity, thinking and feeling. It all seems so logical and accessible

    ....
    Johnny Hodges was also capitalized-his stuff hits me the same way even though their two styles are so different. Johnny, coming from a Sidney Bechet foundation, featured the bent notes, more open space within and between phrases, hard swing, and immeasurable feeling.
    .
    Stitt was a monster on alto, and was so close to Parker's style - on his own, it seems - that Sonny played a lot of tenor to get around that for a while. You descibe his style accurately.

    Thanks for mentioning Bechet, often overlooked, and a pioneer of swinging phrasing and harmonic understanding...and exciting! The Hodges-Bechet connection was important.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanN View Post
    there are some guitarists who capture some of the feeling discussed above, the planned lines plus spontaneity. One cat who fits this bill is Tal Farlow (started on mandolin, btw..). Tal has the melodic control, planned thing down, but adds off-the-cuff remarks, with panache that always makes sense.
    Tal was a massive talent! Where I studied guitar, all the players thought very highly of his work.

    Thanks for adding these guys to the discussion.

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  39. #48
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    I was lucky to see Tal on occasion, near the end. He frequently played a Sunday brunch at The Yankee Clipper in Sea Girt, NJ, usually with bass man Gary Mazzaroppi. He was a gracious, quiet man who'd actually take requests. I made a few that he played. He recorded/played with Bird and I have most, if not all, of his output. This Verve box is excellent.
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  41. #49
    Registered User Pete Martin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Interesting to know Tal started on mando. While I cant speak with first hand knowledge as Ive not transcribed any of his solos, casual listening tells me he plays way different lines than most guitar players. Wonder if playing on the fifth tuned instrument influenced that?

    Stitts recording are many and are very inconsistent. He seemed to record a lot with local rhythm sections of various quality. When he plays with players his level and is inspired, there is none better!

    I recommend the Polygram recording "Sits in with the Oscar Peterson Trio". Also "New York Jazz" on Verve. Full frontal Stitt on both!

    Ive heard a lot of jazz critics say Stitt was a Parker clone. Ive transcribed and learned several solos by both and Stitts language is very different to me. His alto sound is similar, but the lines are all him. Not nearly the clone like say Lou Donaldson.
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Yes, his father started him on mando, but it was tuned like a baritone uke...hey, at least it had 8 strings.

    I always thought Stitt shone best on the blues, like on this 1960 date
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